opinions are fine Rob , but when you start by calling us greedy and unethical your gonna have to expect your opinions will not be recieved in a friendly manner.

I really dont get you. So far you have said you would like to get rid of hatchery fish in your arguments for WT. Now you say we are greedy and unethical for wanting more liberal limits on hatchery stocks that can take the pressure?


Yes there are problem children out there that still cant catch fish the right way, but this is a thread on raising limits on hatchery fish.

Now that's really a good one Rich!

Kind of sounds like the old saying; "birds with the same feathers seem to flock together!"

When a "Man" makes a statement such as Rob has done he should be responsible for what he has stated. No 180's, no spins, no back peddling just admit that you were wrong! He said what he said, and NO ONE made him bring up the issues that he did. The question of this thread was a pretty simple one:

"Since the purpose of raising hatchery fish is largely for harvest, why then is WDFW not raising the limits to accomplish that goal? Since the return timing of hatchery fish is a very limited time in most areas, and of most species, why not allow more harvest on them, and help stop any possible intermingling with our wild stocks gene pool?

Who can give us any 'scientific reasons' why this cannot, and should not be occurring right now?

'Forget your emotion', and state only 'factual information' that you know! In most places, it does not take very many hatchery fish to meet the hatchery needs, so why doesn't WDFW allow more harvest on these hatchery fish?"

So tell us Rich, what was "factual" in Rob's post? Did you have trouble understanding the question too? It sure sounded like Rob was using nothing but pure emotion to most of us!

Moreover, when a man comes back like Rob as just done and reinforces his original post by once again saying; "Aunty M I said exactly what I meant and my statements in no way contradict themselves." How can people feel sorry for him?

Rich, your own statement said it all; "As far as im concerned I could give a darn what people think about me or say because Im Black and white no grey. people love me or hate me for my personality and views"

Clearly, there was NO GRAY in what Rob had said or posted, it was Black and White and you know it! You're a cop, and I'll bet you that when you take a persons statement, that the statement you took is the same statement that is used in the court room!

You might say that Rob has had his day in court and lost his case........ end of story!

Rob does not appear to a bad guy; he just needs to think before he makes such outrageous statements on a board that thousands of other fishermen are reading. We all have gotten in "hot water" a time or two on this board and have learned the rule that we must "put up or shut up" when we are challenge by other members. I am sure that Rob is learning that lesson, and will be a benefit to our board.

Well, I am still waiting to hear why WDFW has not raised the limits on our hatchery fish.

Cowlitzfisherman

Aunty M you just did it again. goodbye

Well maybe I better take that back!


Maybe Rob has not learned his lesson yet.



Cowlitzfisherman

Rob,
You speak generally speak in absolutes and try your damdest to put yourself on a pedastal by implying that your Ethics are superior. This air of arrogance flows through everything you write. The problem is that you feel that everyone should have your ethics and there are several people who had the same mentality with regards to ethics throughout history, Pol Pot, Stalin, Hitler, etc.
I aint'y greedy, but I enjoy limiting on all of the rivers that you mentioned in SW Wa, and I have no problem with the crowds. It would be nice to have the place to myself, but if you know the routine, crowds aren't an issue. But I guess if your a ***** I could see the problems that could arise.

on the cowlitz coho...how many of those will be sent uptream like they have been? can't you catch some up there that are clipped? wasn't that a topic before? until they figure that they've got enough smolt production up there i don't know if they'll allow you to keep a whole bunch yet....and unfortunately i don't think predicting adult returns is as exact a science as we'd like to believe so they usually don't crank up limits until a bit into the returns so they err on the conservative side...just a guess....on the green river i'm sure they'll raise the coho limit if the returns are anything like last year ...but you never know for sure what the returns will be until you're into the season a bit...in south sound last year there was supposed to be a big return of coho last year but it just didn't show up like they did the year before ....

A little history lesson

Years ago there was a 3 fish limit on steelhead when it was reduced to two there was a huge uproar about how it was unfair because the anglers were used to keeping as many fish as they could catch.That is the kind of mentality that liberal limits encourage. The same thing happened when we finially got wild steelhead release here in SW WA. Most anglers were strongly opposed to the idea because they wanted to kill everything they catch. We see the same thing on the North Sound rivers and on the penninsula Some people want to kill every fish they catch. Though not wrong it says alot about their mentality and their lack of concern for the resource and in turn their greed.
2 steelhead a day is plenty for anyone on the planet and plenty to give fish to friends and neighbors.

Never one time did i say i wanted fewer fish in our rivers. Never once did i say i want hatcheries closed.

There has been a code of conduct for river fishing for centuries it's all gone now because people are selfish. Don't think so? go fish the Deschutes in August Or the Kalama "fly water" in September or the meat hole on the North Lewis in October.
All i am doing is asking people to treet others as you want to be treeted Thats it!! if you missed that in my previous posts well then you weren't listening.

the origional question was why not raise limits on hatchery fish. I answered the question why not.. It breeds the mentality that killing everything you catch is a good thing and people get used to the idea of being able to kill as many as they want and as soon as the numbers aren't there they complain about not having fish to kill Thats clearly evident from ( a very vocal few) of the people in this forum. And from history. When all people want is fish to kill they become very unsportsman like and yes greedy.

anyway go ahead kill everything you want frankly I don't care as ling as it's hatchery go ahead and step in below somoene or cut them off with your sled. it's ok for you do whatever pleases you right?? Go ahead and disrespect your fellow anglers I won't be there but maybe someone else who cares will be.

bodysurf

I think that most people believe that it better to error on the side of the fish when the returns numbers may be in question. But on the Cowlitz, this year, that is not the concern. The average pre-dam returns of coho on the Cowlitz were 25,000 adults back to the rack (Barrier Dam)

Like I said earlier in my reply to 4S; "How much "insurance" do you need for "hatchery fish? Let's see one more time; the hatchery needs are 10,000 at best, and you have over 80,000 + adults returning equals: 700% over insured! Well, I would say that just may be a "little bit of an overkill", wouldn't you?


Even if the coho run got screwed somewhere along the line and only half of the half of the 80,000 fish returned (40,000), that would still leave an excess of historical returns numbers by still 15,000 adults!

You asked; "how many of those will be sent upstream like they have been?" Well, my guess will be anything with a coded wire tag in its head gets killed and sent to the processors or a food bank. That number may be as high as 3 or 4 thousand fish. The hatchery will probably keep about 4000 adults for their egg needs, but often keep double that amount for "insurance". If they don't need that insurance, they often dump extra feed fry into Riffe Lake. The rest will most likely be hauled up river and released.

Here the funny part about how screwed up the WDFW management can be. On the Lower Cowlitz (from Mayfield Dam down stream) you are allowed to keep 3 adult coho. From Peters Road above the Cowlitz Falls Dam, you are only allowed to keep 2 adult coho. Can you explain the reasoning for that? By far, their will be 10 times more coho up there to catch then down below the dams and yet the limit remains at 2 adults. Why?

It only took 25,000 adults to maximize the historical spawning production for coho above the dams, and that was when we still had over 90% of our natural habitat left. For the last 4 years, the problem has not been that we weren't getting enough natural production from the coho that have been passed above the dams; the problem has been that the fish collection facilities is only catching less then half of the smolts that are coming down river!

Until WDFW and the NMFS gets their act together and forces the LCPUD, BPA, and Tacoma to spend the money that is needed to improve the fish collection facilities at either the Cowlitz Falls Dam or Mossyrock Dam (Riffe Lake) there should be no reason why fishermen should not be able to enjoy the same 3 fish limit that WDFW has provided down below the dam!

There is no reason why the limit for coho on the Cowlitz River this year should be no less then 6 adults!

OK Rob, now that is science, not just a opinion! It's based on history, math, and fact!


Cowlitzfisherman

Rob,

You are wasting your breath with these people they dont care. All they see you as is a threat to there use of the resource. They will twist you and your words to try and discredit you in any way they can. They will call you a hypocrit, Pompus, Hoilier than though attitude and all that bull.

They do not want what you want, they like Blue Creek, NF Lewis, and all that stuff.

They are not gonna agree about anything you say if it takes away any oportunity from them.

Rich I am sure your right. Thanks

Now how in the world could that be?

Robs thinks that Rich is right. Well, let's see if RICH thinks like Robs thinks!

Lets just look at a little bit of RICH's history on this board! What do you think? Are the double R's Siamese Twins? You be the judge:

Posted by RICH G on 07-02-2002 06:04 PM
"How many fish do you harvest oriented anglers need anyways to sustain your need to kill and eat fish.I myself combineing salmon, steelhead, trout and all species of bottom fish on avarage kill maybe 20 to 25 fish a year tops. My family of 3 eats fish about once a week and eat fish I catch about 95% of the time."

Posted by RICH G on 05-18-2003 01:14 PM

"Dont join WT because you support the harvest of our wild fish to extinction so we can have 10 hatcheries on each river so we can comercial harvest and sport harvest till we are sick of it. Thats about the only reason I can see"

Posted by RICH G on 07-02-2002 05:11 PM

"Me too Im sick of harvest ,harvest, harvest!!!!!!!
If harvest is all people care about than our wild fish are truely doomed. Just food for thought. For the most part hatcherys arnt even here for sport harvest instead for tribes and comercials. If for only sport harvest there would be no such thing as a hatchery. If it wasnt for greed in the first place on all sides there would be no reason for hatcherys. Another thing, I know of many small coastal streams that have had all the same problems as everywhere else accept hatcherys. All the other problems such as logging, habitat degration, polution. But yet they have quite robust wild fish runs accept for a component of a steelhead run in one small river where hatchery steelhead have been introduced. The component of wild steelhead that came at the same time as the hatchery fish have now almost disapeared."

Posted 07-02-2002 10:18 AM

"I think the two major factors that have caused our wild fish numbers to decline are #1 hatchery's #2 over harvest. #2 has been caused by #1. And #1 has done a lot more damage than just causing #2. I say shut em down if it will help the wild ones come back.

Too many people are only concerned about loosing oportunity. Whenever we we have issues like closeing hatchery's or having bait bans people come uncorked. The problem with our society is that too many people are only concerned about what they feel they should have or be entitled to, and that dosent stop with fisherman. People are worried that closing a hatchery may stop them from being able to to kill some hatchery fish or stop them from fishing at all. People are worried that a bait ban on certian rivers might cause them to catch fewer fish or make them start fishing a new way. People dont care that these measures are in best intrest of the fish they only care about loosing oportunity." There are only a few that really give a S##T, and are willing to make sacrifices to ensure the wild ones live on"

Posted by RICH G on 6-12-2002 08:26 PM

"Where did everybody go while I was gone? There isnt anybody here anymore. Was there a bad arguement or disagreement? Where did half the BB go?"

Posted 4-10-2003 04:07 PM

"Just dropped in to say high. Havent had much time for the computer lately but soon Ill be back. Ill have to get my steelie fix some way. No fishing for me lately. Im starting to scout some things out over here but it looks like ill have to go into Idaho and Montana to get into anything good in moving water anything cole anyways. Not much for decent river trout fishing nearby in washington from what I have heard"
Posted by RICH G on 03-10-2003 11:07 AM
Im going to work for the city of Newport as the police of course."

Posted by RICH G on 3/09/03

"Ill be leaving the west side of the mountians soon for an undetermined time Newport Washington is the destination. Its a small town north of Spokane on the Idaho boarder. If anybody knows of any good rivers in the Idaho Panhandle or in Northeast Washington for some nice trouts give me some info. Looks like ill be picking up the 4 and 5 weight full time for a while"

Posted by RICH G on 2/18/03

"Although I like getting nice photos and handle fish with extreem care I would be in favor of such rules and sacrifice my oportunity to get the glory shots. Most people dont know how to handle fish and some dont care If it saves some fish id be for it."

Well, is it a join or not?


Cowlitzfisherman

yep, birds of the same feather

There are many others that dont even give you guys the time of day as they dont see the point in it.

I know are veiws are verry diferent and we will never see alike, (sad but true the sport anglers for salmon and steelhead will never unite on these issues). There are two very different groups out there and a percentage that is somewhere in the middle.

I know I am wasteing my time also when I post in these discussions as far as your group is concerned, the only real reason I do it is for those guys in the middle.

I have a very deep passion for our wild fish.

Oh yes I do fish for hatchery fish and like to harvest a few of them but it wouldnt bother me a bit if they were gone. But have I made that a secret. I have been on the same side of the fence since I started fishing. I was taught from the beginning the values I have now and I will uphold those values forever. Oh yes I have even harvested some wild fish too.

Oh did I mention, I really like getting a rise out of you guys!

cfm....i agree with much of what you said...but i have a question...isn't the reason for the large return of coho basically because the canadians aren't pounding on the coho like they used to? if that's the case should the limits really be raised that much? what happens if one year the limit is cranked up then the canadians go fishing the next year and the limit goes to zero? i bet it's still a matter of 'get as much fish up there as possible' while they can because eventually the canadians are gonna start on them again...even if the number of fish going up there is way above the historical average maybe it's a good idea to use the excess to 'seed the river' so to speak ...also...i don't think they pull cwt'd fish out at the hatchery ...gotta double check that...but i think the only cwt fish they keep are ones used in spawning or pond morts....any cwt fish that go upstream are for stream survey guys to get....

cfm...is it just coho jacks the cowlitz gives to food banks? i know they can't give spawned coho to the food banks because they use benzocaine to knock them out....don't wanna eat them...so they bury 'em...

bodysurf

Trust me, when they won a fish and it shows that they have a coded wire tag, they get their heads cut off! They take all coded wire tags from both chinook and coho. Here a perfect example of what they are now doing; "Tacoma Fish Report dated May 27, 2003: A total of 203 spring chinook adults and 134 spring chinook jacks were donated to the local S.O.M.M.A. food bank during the past week. Coded wire tags containing study information were recovered from these fish prior to their donation to the food bank"

Well if they are waking 203 adults a week on Springer's, you can just image how many coho are going to get it when there are 10,000 a week returning!

And your answer to your second question; I can not say for sure what the "reason" is for our large return of coho, but experts much better informed then me have said it is most likely due to the "great ocean conditions" that we have been experiencing in the last several years. I tend to agree with them.

They can sell ALL of these fish to the dog and cat processors even if they have been exposed to benzocaine or MS22. They can also let people eat them if they hold the exposed fish for 30 days without any additional or new treatments or exposures of theses drugs. That's the way it was 2 years ago, and I do not believe that they have change as of yet.

Cowlitfisherman

RICH

I think that everyone here knows of your passion for wild fish. There is nothing to say bad about that; it is a very noble passion, and I for one will never knock your passion. But, and yes, there is always a "BUT" in life, there is just an equal passion for people who love to catch and eat fish, be it hatchery or whatever!

The world it not what it was 50 years ago and neither is our wild fish runs. In my OPINION, the wild fish will never be here again in the numbers that they originally once were. So how do we continue our sport fishing/harvest if we do not continue our hatcheries? Yes, we all know that they need some improvements, but isn't that the way that everything is improved?.. by new knowledge?

Being involved in the law as you are, surely you understand that people do not like or accept change. But change is a way of life that this world has been adapting to forever. You are truly one of the last of the steelhead Mohegan's!

But like the Mohegan's, time changes everything and one must adapt to what the reality is. Reality is; hatcheries are needed to supplement the needs of the many.

I do know that we do have our differences, and I also know that neither of us is likely to change soon. Our debates will help others "decide" if they want "fish to harvest" or fish to "hook and release"! I guest you would call our differences "the good, the bad, and the ugly"! People will make there own minds up very soon on what they want to do.

Cowlitzfisherman

Rob and Rich have convinced me that what I heard not long ago on the radio might just be true: Extreme liberalism is a mental disorder. Those who have this disorder need immediate hospitalization. The socialist minority always wants CONTROL over the majority. Afterall they know best and simply tolerate the majority as long as it follows their rules. They are so sure they are right they cannot imagine another point of view and scoff at the thought.

How did he put it? "We don't even give you the time of day"....blah blah blah...we know we are right and the rest of you are morons??? something along those lines I think.
God am I relieved that these people are not in control. scary thought.

Grandpa there you go making false assumptions about people again!!! Don't say things about people yo don't know to be true.

By the way m being a right wing republican doesn't make you right.

cfm....no...i think all the springer's die or don't go upstream..so they take the heads...but not the coho...only those that die get checked for cwts..i'll check with the tag lab though...coho cannot go to the food bank if they get hit with benzocaine....or any fish that get's hit with ms-222...unless as you say they have 30 days to purge......fish for the food bank never go to the spawning room but come straight out of the seperator...only hit with co2....drugged fish can go to the renderers though as you say....and people i 've talked to say that yes conditions are good...but the main reason for the coho returns is more a lack of canandians fishin' them...which will change....maybe they could raise the limit for awhile....but not for long....