Maybe it's my cranky mood, but this thread is really irritating to me today. Obviously there's a lot of folks on this board that feel school teachers and government employees are a bunch of overpaid whinners. I'll even go so far to agree that sometimes that's the case, but you'd think by this board it's the norm.

Now I have a question for those that are whinning about overpaid teachers and government workers. If they have it so easy, why don't you apply for these positions you're complaining about? What better place to make change than from the inside. All we've heard about is how bad private sector is and employees don't make squat. It never ceases to amaze me how unemployed friends complain how great I have it, yet won't drag their lazy butttts down to apply for one of these "perfect jobs".

i don't know any teachers that only work 8hours a day...most have to grade papers,tests,write lesson plans etc every night for several hours...seems they work more hours in 8 months than most people do in 12....

kind of a circular argument....people complain about bad teachers or unqualified teachers but won't pay enough to encourage more people to
to become teachers...why teach chemistry when you can make more $ working for merck? and you don't have to baby sit a bunch of ill-behaved brats?
no wonder there's such nationwide shortage of teachers....

Born to fish, you said;

That's kind of funny because now, a lot of us "know" who some of those overpaid whinners are! (Find out what state employees make-WDFW Pages: 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8)

But getting back to your question;

Here's just a few of the reasons for starters why many people do not want to work in those public positions.

Cronyism and nepotism, it runs ramped in many state jobs! You know it, so I will not go any further on those two. Next, people know that they will never be promoted on their abilities of there skills, or how well they do their job. When you work as a public savant, promotion comes with time and not with how successful you have perform your job. In free enterprise, you get paid for what you are worth and not for how long you have been there!

In yes, some people actually do enjoy doing physical work and don't feel dirty about doing it. That is sometimes hard to find in a lot of "public jobs" People dream about owning and running their own companies and business in private enterprise, while people in public services often have nightmares about being number one!

Well take no personal offence BTF, because we already know that you are not one of those "many"! We know that you have a small business on the side, so that tells us that you have ambition. But I am sure that there are lots of "other reasons" why people choose not to work in public positions. These are just a few quick ones that have come to mind to answer your question.


Cowlitzfisherman

I see your point Bob, but you have to remember that our public institutions compete directly with private institutions to draw talent and skill for their teaching positions. If public schools' wages aren't competitive then the result is a bunch of hacks teaching at our public universities.

If you ask me, allowing that to happen is being penny-wise and pound-foolish.
Of course, this is just my opinion........others' opinions may vary.

cfm, as long as you don't make irrelevant comparisons (particularly when it's solely for the purpose of making some smart-@ss remark to insult someone) and you back up your claims with some sort of substantiation, I won't be commenting on your credibility. Deal?

motto ....have union usually better than no have union....

Bodysurf

Yep! Them there teacher unions sure do help them poor dumb kids! When, and if you read these RCW's, you almost want to puke in their faces! But first and foremost, a person needs to read them.....and then they can puke away!

Cowlitzfisherman

no pukin' here.....like i said....union usually better than no union....

CFW. You certainly have your cut and paste skills down. Reading between the lines, I think your biggest issue is the taxes you pay for the school system. What other motivation would you have to be so passionate about this topic? If you pull out the same language from teamster, longshoreman, and other unions, you would see much the same verbage. I don't se the point.

My kids go to a private school, and I harbor no ill will towards paying taxes to improve the quality of teaching and resources for the puplic schools. What better investment in this countries future than teachers, and the supporting resources. Don't under estimate thier challenges or responsibility. I'd like to see them paid more, with higher standards to attract better quality people. This type of argument is better spent on why Bush wants to pour $80 Billion into Iraq.

california will be recruiting more teachers here anyways....so the crunch will only get tighter...

what's the latest housing study say...for snohomish county you have to earn $19 hr minimun to afford to rent a 2 bedroom apt...if you got kids you better make a whole lot more than that and forget about buyin' a home...
in king county you need to earn $23 hr to afford to rent a 2 bedroom apt..homes around 300k there...
..silicon valley ran into the same problem a few years ago so they started to assist police,teachers,firefighters etc with buying homes and with big raises or there'd be no one willing to work there...
let's all race to the bottom......or how about import some teachers from india or china?
h1-b visas for all!!!

Now Aunty - Please be nice to dem teachers.

Dey's justa snaggin' some extra cash.

i suhports publik eh-d'u-cash-in!

Better check again AuntyM. Police and fire have binding arbitration. Teachers don't, but I wish they did. They would make far more if they did. I'm married to a teacher. I wish she made 50 k a year. She doesn't even make 40 and she has her masters degree that she paid for not the state. Yeah she did it during those summer months when everbody thinks teachers are cruising the bahamas. I wonder if some of you know how much a masters in education costs? 20K is what we paid. Costs us 225 every month in college loans.

Do we live in mobile home? NO. We have a comfortable life. But she earns every penny and is worth a few more in my eye. Its too bad education has lost such respect in the publics eye. If I had it my way there would be a state wide strike so all you knuckle heads who think baby sitting, and wiping noses is a teachers job would take some responsiblity for your own childs eductation and well being.

Cowlits. Dont waste your time venting, it will fall on deaf ears.

Thanks for your support.
Husband of a teacher

Wow.

Unbelievable.


Questions like, "Why do teachers strike?" Why does anyone strike? Every employed or once employed person here knows that sometimes you have to draw the line. What happened when you were 8 years old and finally realized that the 50 cents your neighbor was giving you to mow the lawn was a bit under what it was worth? You stopped mowing their lawn. In effect, you went on strike. That's how employee / employer relationships function. That's how they've always functioned. That's how they'll always function.

Deal with it.

"Why do teachers ask for an outrageous raise?" Essentially the same deal. Just like buying a used car, you know the seller is going to ask more than what they expect to recieve for it, just like teachers ask for more than what they expect to recieve. Another classic American bargaining technique. Offers and counteroffers, that's the industry and economy of the United States.

Now personally, I don't think that levies have a damn thing to do with the subject of teachers wanting a raise. In fact, they don't have a damn thing to do with teachers wanting a raise, so I don't believe that they need to be mentioned in this post anymore.

How did any of us transition from being paid seven dollars an hour to a sufficient enough income to support our families? We needed a raise. In most cases, raises were given with experience or new job openings, sometimes you're just the best at what you do and you deserve more. Others had to go in and ask the boss for a raise or apply for a new position. Now this is one of the central differences between teaching and any other job. Good teachers don't get paid more than bad teachers. Teachers with 15 years experience don't get paid much more than teachers with 15 minutes experience, once you become a teacher, you can't be promoted up a floor and become an "executive teacher," or a CEO teacher, essentially you're always at the bottom. Because very few raises or opportunities to advance in the field are given, teachers must ask for a raise, whether it be to pay for housing, or greed, or because they think they're job's are becoming more difficult. I don't really care, it's just the way that the system works. You're either offered a raise, or you demand a raise, if you don't do that, you never get anywhere.

The 9 month vs. 12 month debate.

Very valid debate, kind of like whether it's better to work five eight hour shifts, or four tens. You could look at a person working tens and say, "Hey, that ******* only has to work 4 days a week and he still makes the same amount as I do when I work 5!!!" Do the math. Doesn't work that way, and neither does teaching. In my area, teachers are required to be at school from 8 AM to 4 PM. During those eight hours, there is generally about 15 minutes on each end which the teachers have to work on projects, un-hindered by the presence of pupils. How many 10 page papers could you read, edit, write comments on, and record in the grading system in 30 minutes a day?

I could grade one 10 page paper in 30 minutes. Maybe.

So lets say that a teacher two years ago had 32 students in his class. If he took half an hour per student to edit and grade their ten page paper, it would take him about 16 hours to complete his task. Sixteen hours is the equivalent of two full eight hour work days. There goes his weekend. Now lets say that this semester, the same teacher, earning the same salary, working the same job, but with higher taxes, fuel price, food prices, and rent, has 40 students in his class. He assigns the same assignment of a 10 page paper, except this time it takes him 4 hours longer to grade the papers, because he has another 8 students in his class. Why should he not be paid more? I don't really have a clue what any of you do, but I'd almost gaurantee that if you put in an extra 4 hours of work, on a weekend, then you would feel that you deserved more money than if you had not worked those extra 4 hours to be compensated.

I'd appreciate it if one of the teachers on the board could type for us a list of the classes he's taken in the last ten years, since being first hired as a teacher. These classes are taken in the summer, and REQUIRED by the employer. Well that really cuts into the old vacation now doesn't it??? So now what do we have? Say that the same teacher we talked about previously has 40 kids in his class, and a month long REQUIRED class coming up this summer. Now we have a man who works 40 hours a week, 20 hours on the weekend(more than two days work by industry standards), and a month long summer class. Add to that a contract which requires him to work a week after school gets out in the spring, and work a week before school starts in the fall, and what do you have???

A sixty hour work week for 9 months of the year with 40 kids running around.

A one month class in the summer, most likely also 40 hour weeks.

That puts us up to 10 months on and 2 months off.

Now subtract from that 2 months the week in the fall and week in the spring which the teacher is required to attend school without any students, and we're left with ten and a half months of work, and one and a half months of break.

Taking into account the sixty hour weeks during the 9 months which school is in session, having one and a half months off is really not very much, not much more time off than the average person would get by working 12 months a year with no homework on the weekends.

I'm not even going to start with the other responsibilities of a teacher, lesson planning, conferences, extra time spent with kids who need extra help. Don't think for a second that these duties don't add up to another easy 8 hours per week of "donated time."

I'm tired, so let me once again refresh the main points of all of this, attempting to answer the original question of, "why are they striking?"

Sometimes to get a raise, you have to go on strike. Ask millions of Americans who are a part of one union or another. They work just like you and I, and they want more money, don't tell me that you've never been un-satisfied with your pay.

They request an un-reasonable raise from the school district. Simple bargaining tactics, just like you or I would use when selling a boat, the seller asks more than he expects to get, the buyer counters with less than he expects to pay, they settle for a figure inbetween.

I've been trying to avoid throwing the classic, "And just think how important teachers are to your kids" line in here, but it does have a place.

Teachers don't sign any contracts which specify extra work hours, class sizes, or which courses in further education the school district will force them to take in the years to come. They do agree to a 40 hour work week 9 months of the year. Now you just think, hopefully understanding what I've written previously about a teacher's extra time spent outside the 40 hour week, and try to imagine how it would be if a teacher REFUSED to spend a second extra beyond the 40 hour a week contract.

If your child needed extra help after school, it would be REFUSED.

If you wanted to talk to your child's teacher when you got off work at 4 PM, it would be REFUSED.

If a teacher gave your child an F on and paper, and didn't take the time to comment on what to change or how to better it, then what? You can't learn without some help, and an F on a paper tells a child absolutely nothing about what needs to be changed or what he did wrong.

What this all boils down to is that teachers realize that in order to effectively do their job, they will have to give extra time to the students and to the program. Essentially, this is donated time outside of their 40 hour work week(how many of you get done with work on Friday and ask a little kid if he needs help learning to read?) Teachers know that they can just flunk a student if he can't read, and they also know that if they don't help that kid learn to read, then there's a good chance that no one else will.

So here's the deal. Teachers know that they'll work a bit of donated overtime, but if there are growing class sizes and fewer teachers, then teachers are expected to work more and more donated overtime. There will be a breaking point at which the teachers decide they're not getting paid enough. At this point, they go on strike, because you can be damn sure that no school district will say, "Oh, you look over-worked and underpaid, let me give you a raise."

So there you have it, they're on strike, they signed on willing to do a certain amount of work, and their bosses now want them to do more work. More work should equal more pay shouldn't it? I doubt that's a radical idea in anyone's book.

That's why teachers go on strike,

David

Well David I see you looked at this with a perspective of the worst possible senerio for the teachers. I remember doing one 10 page essay in school. 90% of the tive we got our papers back before the end of the day. So that blows that whole theory you had completely out of the water. Which gives them back "most" of their weekends and now we're back to a 9 month job.

Everyone that goes into a profession should and usually does know what they're getting themselves into.

I to agree that the teachers are important to our kids, but they aren't caring too much about the kids right now. Once again I ask why they don't work without a contract until they get it resolved as to not hurt the kids which are the big losers here.

As someone mentioned prior. What about the seniors? College? What about the kids who have summer jobs already lined out or will be looking come summertime? Think maybe they won't have a good shot at a summer job because by the time they get out of school the jobs will already be filled. HMMMMM never thought about that did you?

These aren't my kids but I do feel sorry for them.

I think we all need to step back and take a good look at what's happening here... Teachers are not the villians that most of these posts paint them to be. You want to know where your money is going? Ask your local school board about ADMINISTRATIVE salaries. Administrators never have to strike, because year in and year out, they get pay raises, usually board approved, that put them miles ahead of any of the highest paid teachers. And what do they do to warrant these raises? Attend meetings and browbeat the people in the trenches(teachers and support staff), for not doing things THEIR way. Then there are bonuses, handed out left and right for merely doing what is expected of them in their lofty positions. I know of one that received $60,000 for overseeing a future relocation of central administration staff to a new building. That is just one of the inequities going on DAILY in your local school districts.I think people should quit bashing teachers, and go to your school board and ask why are we paying administrators so much, when the people that we entrust with the molding of young minds get left further behind.
Why are there so many IMMSU's ( Ineffectual Middle Management Suck-Ups) making on average of 55-60K a year? Because the upper level admin needs to have ***-kissers surrounding them to insulate them from what should be a wary public. In closing, TALK TO YOUR SCHOOL BOARD!

"I remember doing one 10 page essay in school. 90% of the tive we got our papers back before the end of the day. So that blows that whole theory you had completely out of the water. "

Only if you think that one 10 page paper is the ONLY time your teacher had to work past the 8hrs./day he/she was paid for.

I notice Marysville (school district) posts the top 20 teacher's salaries on their official site. It's impressive...I wish I made that much. On the surface it's sort of flies in the face of the teacher's complaints. I WOULD like to see what the bottom 20 are paid, though. Why don't they post that as well?

cfm, you play the baffle 'em with bullsh!t card well. Cut and paste, indeed.

If you could do me a favor and try and support your individual complaints, points, assertions, whatever you'd like to call them, individually, with your sources, it would help a lot. You never know, I might even agree with you on the grounds of your argument.

The old "here's my proof, it's up to you do dig through it and see which paragraph of the code supports each of my 50 anecdotal claims" just doesn't work well for someone with a busy life.

Thanks, I know you'll be supportive.

As a teacher, I find this stuff rather entertaining. I will continue to keep my mouth shut......However, the beginning of this post discussed the state salary schedule for teachers. This is my fourth year and I am making far less than previous posts indicated. However, I'm not complaining. The whole strike issue stems from many issues that I don't expect the common lay person to understand. I'm not going to get into it, but teachers do have a valid point. In the meantime, I'm just going to keep being the best teacher I can be and continue to fish like a crazed maniac....
Cuttie