I thought teachers were supposed to be smart. If thats the case why are they still striking? A blind man with half an @$$ knows that you will never get back what you lose from a strike. Not only that but it makes you look awfully greedy.

How about this....

...when the school levy's come up for a vote, pass them.

...otherwise wqe are just giving lip service to the thought that kids and their education are a high priority.

For non city folks......have any of you seen what it costs to rent a studio aprtment in Issaquah?

IMO, its criminal that teachers are often left with no choice but FIGHT for fair compensation....

Yea H2O,
50000 or 60000 grand a year for there part time job just isnt fair at all

....ummm, the average teachers salary is well below that brother...

...and if you are going to try teaching and living in the same community, places like Issaquah are at a serious disadvantage because the cost of living...

...50, 000 a year will take you alot further in Forks than it will in Issaquah.

Paying a living wage to those that would educate your children isn't asking too much is it?.... In my mind, its just that what constitutes a living wage is different from district to district...

...40, 000 a year will get you alot more in Forks than it will in Issaquah, important to keep in mind when you ask yourself how much is too much.....

Youre WRONG it may even be a little higher. I looked it up before I posted.

Where did you get that $50-$60k figure?

WA state teachers average somewhere around $42k, start at under $30k, and are below the overall national average for salaries.

They are WAY up the list as far as number of students per teacher, like #2 or so, which is my biggest beef.

...post your source bro so I can see for myself.....

Source= 2003 wash. st. employees salary and job title.

I don't think that teachers get a raw deal. Teachers ***** and moan about $$ but they know what they are getting into when thay trained for and took a job in that field.

Not bad money for working eight months per year.

duroboat...linky, please?

Skywalker,
The mod's have removed this linc before and out of respect for there wishes I will not put it up. But if you do a google search with the info I stated above you will find it. And I will say I looked at Marysville and not all of issaquah.But they all seem pretty close.

"I don't think that teachers get a raw deal. Teachers ***** and moan about $$ but they know what they are getting into when thay trained for and took a job in that field.

Not bad money for working eight months per year."

That's the standard argument. What it doesn't account for are levy failures, increased class sizes (WA's biggest problem in my eyes), and budget cuts that reduce or eliminate increases.

I just looked at Last Stevens, took total pay listed, $18,844,03 divided # teachers 402=

AVG $46, 875.80 year (actually 8 months of work)

$46,87580 / 8+= $5857 per month worked

$5857 X 12 = $ 70,284 avg. working 12 months like most people.

BTW: May job has budget constraints, deadlines and higher work loads every year, thats life.

Again, they knew the $$ situation when the trained and took the job.

If you look in the thread "find out what state employees make"
There was a Teacher on there saying that Levys have no effect on wages they are for operating cost and maintaince only.

Coho: Here are some thoughts on your questions:
-School is not responsible for your child care at any time, if your child is sick you must make arrangements just like if they are on strike you must make arrangements for your childs care. Is it always easy or convenient, no, but it is still your responsability.
- there is no "cut date" for college enrollment, most people apply and many are accepted to college long before they finish their senior year of high school.
-High school athletics is an extracurricular activity. It is a privledge to play, not a right. You could not sue your school for lost opportunity to play any more than the school could sue you if your kid became ineligable and the team had a losing season because your kid couldn't play. Also most sports teams and thier coaches are playing even if the district is on strike. The schools think it is important for the kids to have the opportunity to compete, especially the seniors, even though most will never play after the end of high school.

As far as why teachers strike, well they do it for the same reason anyone strikes, to try to better their own situation. The fact that they are public employees does not mean that they shouldn't try and better thier own situation just like everyone else. They must think the market can handle a pay raise, smaller classes or what ever the demands are. I don't know if that is the case in this situation or not, but the market will decide.
I do know that in many parts of the country school districts are paying more than Washington and some even give substantial signing bonuses (as much as $50,000.00) if a teacher agrees to come teach in their district.

By the way I am not a teacher or nor have I ever been one.

Look, I don't like teacher's strikes any more than most people (look at my home port. I have two kids in school and I've been through it), but the issues to me are:

1) lousy conditions for my kids to be taught in
2) poor quality teachers (my apologies to the good ones that hang in there) because no one wants a profession that starts at <$30k right out of college. Some good people have a passion for teaching and stick with it despite the sacrifice. Some get into it and discover it's not lucrative enough to continue.

I suppose if you don't have kids, or don't give a rats @ss about their education, or make enough to afford private schools, then you might have a different take on it.

...so the message you want to send the potential future educators of your and my children is ......'don't teach unless you want to be broke'?

...better yet, 'don't teach in Washington unless you want to be broke'

Duroboat my comment w/levies is pertinent to operations, i.e., class sizes. They shut down a couple of elementary schools when I was a freshman in h.s. and moved the freshmen class to the high school. I had 40+ kids in some of my classes.

Anyone that thinks teachers in general have it good and shouldn't complain are out of touch. Starting pay scales suck, working conditions are geting more and more difficult, and on top of that they now have to worry about gun totting students. If you balance the responsibilities they carry, and the price they pay to have the job, you have to wonder why anyone would do it. How many teachers do you know that did it for the "money"?

Baddawg-I can accept what your saying, but I wont bow down.

Regarding why a school district decides to continue sports.

"The schools think it is important for the kids to have the opportunity to compete, especially the seniors, even though most will never play after the end of high school."

perhaps another look is.-a source of income for the school district? state, fed, fans, colleges?, ? ? ?

Actually most Seniors dont continue education after graduation, why should that be put on hold.

Hey H20,

Don't forget about the salaries versus the hours that these teachers work!!

How many days a week do teachers have to work compared to others that make the same amount for working 12 months out of the year instead of just 9 months? Look at the prime time they get to take off, plus all the benefits that they also get!

Yep, them poor teachers!

School levies are noting more than a scam to burden ONLY PROPERTY OWNERS! Can you explain why it is that only a property owner has to carry the burden of a school levy tax??

It's nothing more but a fricken rip-off and you know it! Levy monies almost never go to what they were advertised to be used for, and that is a well known fact! You want to talk about school levies then go right ahead, but first you darn well better do your "homework" and find out the "real facts" about school levies instead of just what your friends have tried to sell to you.

I love to talk about the "lies" of the school levies and I can support whatever I say with documentation to back it up! I'll bet that you levy supports can't do the same! I can only use our local school as an example, but you can bet your last tax dollar that 99.9% of all schools do the same with their levy monies!

Do you want to test the waters?

Skywalker
How large are the class sizes in the average college class?

Cowlitzfisherman

H2O,
I will agree that the starting wages leave alot to be desired no argument there. And I do believe that should be addressed. But when I did the math on the Port Angeles dist. only 2.3% of the teachers were making less than $30000 a year and my guess is some of those may be sub's really working part time. Just my opinion but I think the majority are doing Ok for a job that is only P/T at 181 days per year.

30 to 60 k for 1/2 of the household income? married teachers 60 to 120k not to shabby

and summers on the charter boats, wouldn't that be nice.

CFM,
I agree with you on the Levies...

Oh my... I cant believe I said I agree with CFM

It has been unfair to the property owners that dont have kids in school... Time to impose a levy on property owning parents with kids in school... And rent surcharge for apartment owners with kids... payable directly to the school... Besides if it cost more to have kids maybe there wouldn't be so friggen many of them to begin with...


grandpa shouldn't have to pay for the education of a bunch of delinquints anyway...

CFM,
Have you looked at the list at what a UW professor makes. In most cases well over $100,000. But I can almost understand that sense were paying some elementary teachers over $60,000. Looks like if a teacher is willing to asert themselves and try to teach at a collage they can do really well.

Piper,
Good idea

Actually, it isn't a well-known fact. If it was well-known, then you wouldn't have to act like we're a bunch of uninformed dummies..........now would you?

Baddawg

You are so right on!!!

H20,

Did I forget to tell you that my letters to the editor were so factually damaging that our "local million air" that has kids attending our school district attempted to bribe me to shut up by sending me a check for $600 dollars to pay my levy taxes?

Levies are corrupt to there very core!

Cowlitzfisherman

What does the fact they don't work 12 months out of the year have to do with anything? They don't dictate the hours.Pretend they do, and then evaluate their income vs responsibilities. I think most teachers seek out part time work in the summers. College income is irrelevant as is class size. College professors don't teach, they lecture. Much different than handling a fourth grade student.

If thats all it takes I'm in for $50... anyone else?

"How large are the class sizes in the average college class? "

Some of my classes were in excess of 100 students.

How the number of paying, tested-for-acceptance, and generally much more focused on the task at hand students relates to the number of pre-pubescent, HAVE-to-be-there hellions (right alongside my perfect little angels) I have no idea.

It's really a shame that a vast majority feel that teachers
work ONLY 8 months out of the year. That "summer vacation" that teachers get is spent on furthering their own educations (on their own dime), creating lesson plans, purchasing supplies(with their own money), adopting federal programs such as NO CHILD LEFT BEHIND, training, training, and MORE training to keep up with ever changing technology and teaching methods.
Then if they're lucky, a week or two to recouperate from the past school year of dealing with spoiled rotten little cretins who have no respect for anyone, much less someone who has the uneviable task of trying to teach them to be productive members of society. Add to the mix crack babies, gangster wanna be's , guns, drugs, and violence, and then say that teachers are overpaid. I am not a teacher, nor have I ever been, but I have had the pleasure of working side by side with them for 25 years.
Greatly under-appreciated and grossly underpaid, for doing what society appears to be unable to do-SPEND QUALITY TIME WITH KIDS. Just ask yourself, how long could you do what they do?

Piper

Are you that lame? Did you assume that I would have accepted such a low life bribe?

Are you a student who was never taught what the word integrity meant?


Cowlitzfisherman

Piper, lmao! I'm soooo tempted

Funny you should mention that, nookie. Nice post by the way.

I've been told I should go into teaching many times. Now that I'm on the precipice of unemployment again, it's come up again. It all boils down to having to try and teach kids that want to learn while trying to keep kids that don't from impeding the process. Better yet, reach THOSE kids and convert 'em.

I could never do it, and neither could most of the nay-sayers here, I'd bet.

Sorry coho, but high school sports are very revenue negative. In most districts kids have to buy ASB cards in order to participate and then there are booster club fund raisers and selling ads to local buisnesses etc... Some schools have fees for each sport that are paid by the athlete 50 to 200 dollars per year. the ASB funds also cover other activities such as band, debate, deca, choir and many others.
The gate at some football and basketball games may be good, but what about volleyball, soccer, wrestling, golf, swimming, etc... Mainly just the parents and a few friends.

Try this on for size. All levies voted in here in the Mineral Morton school district. Yet the superintendet needs more money so he cuts back on the hours for the teachers assistants and he wants to close the mineral grade school. Mineral generates an excess $30,000 of money each year(above the cost of running it) that goes to support Morton. This is a B school and he is making $120,000 a year(3/4 year) There is just one example of how our monies are wasted by the big shots in the schools.

If you don't think it is happening in your local school you're an idiot.

I have no problem with a teacher getting what they're worth, but I don't understand striking for a measely amount of money. Now they will never be able to regain this loss of money.(unless they get retro)

I don't have a whole lot of respect fot the new school sytems and I'm losing more and more everytime I watch the news.

Isn't everyone underpaid, underappreciated and overworked? From the McDonalds employee to Gary Payton, we are all just pitiful.

I know I'm still looking for that job that pays $100k and doesn't require a full committment.

I think they should just fire the lot and start over! Find some teachers that appreciate their job and the students. The teacher's pensions and healthcare benefits are nothing to sneeze at and we are supposed to feel sorry for them?

The teachers are the one's out of touch.

Glowball, as I have said before, I can think of head better than steelhead. I guess that's another topic.

I do not have any teachers that are friends. My only experience is by helping in my daughters class, who is now in the 5th grade. As a parent I am sensitive to the quality of teaching, and from being involved in class, I see how difficult this important job is. Class sizes are way too big, resources are limited, and parents are never happy. This is off the strike issue you started out with, and as usually happens, the topic has morphed. I am not familiar with the strike, or the demands. You may very well be right that this one is a loser. Aside from that, being a teacher of our children, in my opinion, is one of the most important positions in this country, hence the position.

"$120,000 a year(3/4 year)"

I'm not sure how exactly one would go about researching this so I'll imagine...

I imagine that salary is one of the smallest amongst all superintendents in the state....how much do you think the Seattle superintendent makes?? I'll bet its substantially more...

Further, do you think being the superintendent of ANY school district in the state is an eight month a year job? I suppose you are imagining that time as paid vacation? I really have no idea what a 'superintendent of schools' does exactly...do you? If that guy IS taking that time as vacation I guarantee you he is the worst superintendent in the state...no wonder the best superintendent's job he could get was in Mineral....

You been on a campus lately, cowfish.

It's true..........profs lecture, your TA explains the lecture, and YOU learn the material.

They get paid what they do because it's about the prevailing wage, industry-wide. Hardly a mystery................

Cowfish, you are one bitter dude. It ain't that complicated. If you are one of the unemployed, you have my regreats. If you have a job, and it pays less than the steelar amount teachers are getting, get a better job. Maybe you just want the summers off to do more fishing. Now I can relate to that!!

Now I just did a little research and I'm even more flabergasted. The marysville teachers are wanting a total package raise of 11%. Are you $hitting me. Get real. Cost of living is (i think) less than 2%. With the struggling economy they should be happy they're getting anything for a raise.

GREED!!!!!!

Just curious, how many kids say I want to go through 4 years of college, so I can be a teacher and make all that money and have all that time off? Most parents would not be all that excited. I have not looked at individual pay scales, but I would suspect that tenure drives the number up, and new teachers make squat. The question is how do school districts attract good people to teach our kids?

starting salary too low... I dont buy that...

Every proffesion whether teacher or dichdigger has a low starting salary... you gotta pay your dues and show your worth... fifteen years ago I started out making $7 bucks and hour drafting... needless to say the payscale goes up drastically from there if you're any good...

Cowlitzfisherman

"I don' t recall to many fouth graders coming to class with a hangover do you?!"

Is your goal to reduce your credibility to zero with that? What the hell does that have to do with anything?

*I've* taught college classes for ****'s sake. Two hours of Geology 101 lab was a breeze compared to having my kid's friend ****** over for dinner for 45 minutes. I can't imagine having her in a classroom all day. Believe me, lecturing to college kids with a hangover is easy. They don't say a word for the whole hour.

I'll tell you what, piper, the teacher that will take $7 an hour can teach yours and cowfish's kids.

Now I never said that is what they should be making... that is what I made... I paid my dues and I do allright now...

All I am saying is that anyone starting out in any profession should not expect to make top dollar...

Amazing, people who have no problem spending thousands of dollars on rigs,boats and trailers,computers,fishing gear,etc., can't stand to see the people entrusted with the care and education of our children make forty to fifty thousand a year.

If waste and incompetence need to be addressed take the necessary action and don't throw out the baby with the bath water.

It's true that wages lost during a strike usually are not recovered but sometimes one has to take a stand just to keep from losing ground.

For those of you who feel govt. agencies need to be held accountable, I agree, but focus on the problem, pay the competent grade and high school teachers a good salary and weed out the rest.

You will have to use the existing system to make a difference, if this proves to much the only alternative is to be mad at and jealous of good teachers making a good living.

Why not work while they negotiate, that way they don't lose anything and more importantly the kids don't lose. Most of the discussion has been about the teachers. What about the kids? I would understand this if they were after a realistic goal, but they are looking for a raise that is way beyond that.

I would be interested in knowing how many teachers started college with the intent of becoming a teacher, and how many had other aspiirations and couldn't cut the curiculum(sp).

As I see it, they all knew what the pay was before they signed the contract.

We (the public) expect way too much from the teachers.

That being a given, if they are intelligent enough to become a teacher, they were aware of the conditions before they signed the contract.

I don't think they are overpayed for what they are asked to do, but I do think they knew what the job was when they took it.




herm

"...that with working parents the financial strain of extending day care, baby sitting, or cost associated to my child not attending school."
Schools are not free government daycares.

"...College professors don't teach, they lecture."
Did you go to college? I had some great professors who went above and beyond with labs, field work, and weekend trips.

I don't think teachers, county workers,state employees etc. should be given a raise across the board it should be given to those who deserve and earn it not all workers in any given area as far as the levies go i don't have any children why should i be paying for other peoples kids to ride on new buses maybe they should let their parents figure out how they get to school. people rely on the government and others to do everything for them when they should be doing more on their own

Teachers don't lose money in a strike! The feds and state mandate the number of school days in a year. All that really happens is that they (and our kids) will be in school later in the summer. Withholding ones labor services as a method of attempting to obtain a better contract is a traditional way to negotiate throughout industry. However, in the public school arena the striking teachers take no financial hit to their annual compensation.

Don't know how I missed this topic for so long, anyone that thinks teachers work 8 months are a little far from reality. I have a sister inlaw that teaches in Marysville and my daughter goes to Lake Stevens. I am 100% behind the teachers. The daycare issue, I never have understood that mentality.. Teachers pay, would you accept a contract that gave you the same pay and said you need to work 2 weeks longer? I don't know how many nights and weekends they are grading papers, planning etc.. The kids might be out of school but teachers are not! For all of you that say they get paid to much I'm willing to bet not one of you could do their job! How about working in a place were a child gets expelled, comes to school the next day as if nothing happen, why?
He happened to belong to the local Tr### and got restaining orders against anyone that could do anything about it.. How come admistrators pay never comes into this topic? Since the new superintedent came to Marysville they have added 10 people under her @ 70,000 a year!! My only issue is that I wish we could get rid of the bad one.. That's a whole new union topic. Just my 2 cents..

Sure, you get to be face to face with a professor..............when you're a junior and your major has been declared. At least that's the way it is at our two largest state universities (UW & WSU).

When you're a freshman or a sophomore and you're completing your courses required for graduation, and sitting in a lecture hall with 600 other students, chances are your profs don't even know your name. How could they?


cowfish,

If college profs compete with other profs around the country, at different universities around the country (both public AND private schools) and this competition sets the prevailing wage in the industry....................and you think profs are overpaid. Don't you think the institutions around the country have a better handle on what professors should be paid than you do?

Maybe it's my cranky mood, but this thread is really irritating to me today. Obviously there's a lot of folks on this board that feel school teachers and government employees are a bunch of overpaid whinners. I'll even go so far to agree that sometimes that's the case, but you'd think by this board it's the norm.

Now I have a question for those that are whinning about overpaid teachers and government workers. If they have it so easy, why don't you apply for these positions you're complaining about? What better place to make change than from the inside. All we've heard about is how bad private sector is and employees don't make squat. It never ceases to amaze me how unemployed friends complain how great I have it, yet won't drag their lazy butttts down to apply for one of these "perfect jobs".

i don't know any teachers that only work 8hours a day...most have to grade papers,tests,write lesson plans etc every night for several hours...seems they work more hours in 8 months than most people do in 12....

kind of a circular argument....people complain about bad teachers or unqualified teachers but won't pay enough to encourage more people to
to become teachers...why teach chemistry when you can make more $ working for merck? and you don't have to baby sit a bunch of ill-behaved brats?
no wonder there's such nationwide shortage of teachers....

Born to fish, you said;

That's kind of funny because now, a lot of us "know" who some of those overpaid whinners are! (Find out what state employees make-WDFW Pages: 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8)

But getting back to your question;

Here's just a few of the reasons for starters why many people do not want to work in those public positions.

Cronyism and nepotism, it runs ramped in many state jobs! You know it, so I will not go any further on those two. Next, people know that they will never be promoted on their abilities of there skills, or how well they do their job. When you work as a public savant, promotion comes with time and not with how successful you have perform your job. In free enterprise, you get paid for what you are worth and not for how long you have been there!

In yes, some people actually do enjoy doing physical work and don't feel dirty about doing it. That is sometimes hard to find in a lot of "public jobs" People dream about owning and running their own companies and business in private enterprise, while people in public services often have nightmares about being number one!

Well take no personal offence BTF, because we already know that you are not one of those "many"! We know that you have a small business on the side, so that tells us that you have ambition. But I am sure that there are lots of "other reasons" why people choose not to work in public positions. These are just a few quick ones that have come to mind to answer your question.


Cowlitzfisherman

I see your point Bob, but you have to remember that our public institutions compete directly with private institutions to draw talent and skill for their teaching positions. If public schools' wages aren't competitive then the result is a bunch of hacks teaching at our public universities.

If you ask me, allowing that to happen is being penny-wise and pound-foolish.
Of course, this is just my opinion........others' opinions may vary.

cfm, as long as you don't make irrelevant comparisons (particularly when it's solely for the purpose of making some smart-@ss remark to insult someone) and you back up your claims with some sort of substantiation, I won't be commenting on your credibility. Deal?

motto ....have union usually better than no have union....

Bodysurf

Yep! Them there teacher unions sure do help them poor dumb kids! When, and if you read these RCW's, you almost want to puke in their faces! But first and foremost, a person needs to read them.....and then they can puke away!

Cowlitzfisherman

no pukin' here.....like i said....union usually better than no union....

CFW. You certainly have your cut and paste skills down. Reading between the lines, I think your biggest issue is the taxes you pay for the school system. What other motivation would you have to be so passionate about this topic? If you pull out the same language from teamster, longshoreman, and other unions, you would see much the same verbage. I don't se the point.

My kids go to a private school, and I harbor no ill will towards paying taxes to improve the quality of teaching and resources for the puplic schools. What better investment in this countries future than teachers, and the supporting resources. Don't under estimate thier challenges or responsibility. I'd like to see them paid more, with higher standards to attract better quality people. This type of argument is better spent on why Bush wants to pour $80 Billion into Iraq.

california will be recruiting more teachers here anyways....so the crunch will only get tighter...

what's the latest housing study say...for snohomish county you have to earn $19 hr minimun to afford to rent a 2 bedroom apt...if you got kids you better make a whole lot more than that and forget about buyin' a home...
in king county you need to earn $23 hr to afford to rent a 2 bedroom apt..homes around 300k there...
..silicon valley ran into the same problem a few years ago so they started to assist police,teachers,firefighters etc with buying homes and with big raises or there'd be no one willing to work there...
let's all race to the bottom......or how about import some teachers from india or china?
h1-b visas for all!!!

Now Aunty - Please be nice to dem teachers.

Dey's justa snaggin' some extra cash.

i suhports publik eh-d'u-cash-in!

Better check again AuntyM. Police and fire have binding arbitration. Teachers don't, but I wish they did. They would make far more if they did. I'm married to a teacher. I wish she made 50 k a year. She doesn't even make 40 and she has her masters degree that she paid for not the state. Yeah she did it during those summer months when everbody thinks teachers are cruising the bahamas. I wonder if some of you know how much a masters in education costs? 20K is what we paid. Costs us 225 every month in college loans.

Do we live in mobile home? NO. We have a comfortable life. But she earns every penny and is worth a few more in my eye. Its too bad education has lost such respect in the publics eye. If I had it my way there would be a state wide strike so all you knuckle heads who think baby sitting, and wiping noses is a teachers job would take some responsiblity for your own childs eductation and well being.

Cowlits. Dont waste your time venting, it will fall on deaf ears.

Thanks for your support.
Husband of a teacher

Wow.

Unbelievable.


Questions like, "Why do teachers strike?" Why does anyone strike? Every employed or once employed person here knows that sometimes you have to draw the line. What happened when you were 8 years old and finally realized that the 50 cents your neighbor was giving you to mow the lawn was a bit under what it was worth? You stopped mowing their lawn. In effect, you went on strike. That's how employee / employer relationships function. That's how they've always functioned. That's how they'll always function.

Deal with it.

"Why do teachers ask for an outrageous raise?" Essentially the same deal. Just like buying a used car, you know the seller is going to ask more than what they expect to recieve for it, just like teachers ask for more than what they expect to recieve. Another classic American bargaining technique. Offers and counteroffers, that's the industry and economy of the United States.

Now personally, I don't think that levies have a damn thing to do with the subject of teachers wanting a raise. In fact, they don't have a damn thing to do with teachers wanting a raise, so I don't believe that they need to be mentioned in this post anymore.

How did any of us transition from being paid seven dollars an hour to a sufficient enough income to support our families? We needed a raise. In most cases, raises were given with experience or new job openings, sometimes you're just the best at what you do and you deserve more. Others had to go in and ask the boss for a raise or apply for a new position. Now this is one of the central differences between teaching and any other job. Good teachers don't get paid more than bad teachers. Teachers with 15 years experience don't get paid much more than teachers with 15 minutes experience, once you become a teacher, you can't be promoted up a floor and become an "executive teacher," or a CEO teacher, essentially you're always at the bottom. Because very few raises or opportunities to advance in the field are given, teachers must ask for a raise, whether it be to pay for housing, or greed, or because they think they're job's are becoming more difficult. I don't really care, it's just the way that the system works. You're either offered a raise, or you demand a raise, if you don't do that, you never get anywhere.

The 9 month vs. 12 month debate.

Very valid debate, kind of like whether it's better to work five eight hour shifts, or four tens. You could look at a person working tens and say, "Hey, that ******* only has to work 4 days a week and he still makes the same amount as I do when I work 5!!!" Do the math. Doesn't work that way, and neither does teaching. In my area, teachers are required to be at school from 8 AM to 4 PM. During those eight hours, there is generally about 15 minutes on each end which the teachers have to work on projects, un-hindered by the presence of pupils. How many 10 page papers could you read, edit, write comments on, and record in the grading system in 30 minutes a day?

I could grade one 10 page paper in 30 minutes. Maybe.

So lets say that a teacher two years ago had 32 students in his class. If he took half an hour per student to edit and grade their ten page paper, it would take him about 16 hours to complete his task. Sixteen hours is the equivalent of two full eight hour work days. There goes his weekend. Now lets say that this semester, the same teacher, earning the same salary, working the same job, but with higher taxes, fuel price, food prices, and rent, has 40 students in his class. He assigns the same assignment of a 10 page paper, except this time it takes him 4 hours longer to grade the papers, because he has another 8 students in his class. Why should he not be paid more? I don't really have a clue what any of you do, but I'd almost gaurantee that if you put in an extra 4 hours of work, on a weekend, then you would feel that you deserved more money than if you had not worked those extra 4 hours to be compensated.

I'd appreciate it if one of the teachers on the board could type for us a list of the classes he's taken in the last ten years, since being first hired as a teacher. These classes are taken in the summer, and REQUIRED by the employer. Well that really cuts into the old vacation now doesn't it??? So now what do we have? Say that the same teacher we talked about previously has 40 kids in his class, and a month long REQUIRED class coming up this summer. Now we have a man who works 40 hours a week, 20 hours on the weekend(more than two days work by industry standards), and a month long summer class. Add to that a contract which requires him to work a week after school gets out in the spring, and work a week before school starts in the fall, and what do you have???

A sixty hour work week for 9 months of the year with 40 kids running around.

A one month class in the summer, most likely also 40 hour weeks.

That puts us up to 10 months on and 2 months off.

Now subtract from that 2 months the week in the fall and week in the spring which the teacher is required to attend school without any students, and we're left with ten and a half months of work, and one and a half months of break.

Taking into account the sixty hour weeks during the 9 months which school is in session, having one and a half months off is really not very much, not much more time off than the average person would get by working 12 months a year with no homework on the weekends.

I'm not even going to start with the other responsibilities of a teacher, lesson planning, conferences, extra time spent with kids who need extra help. Don't think for a second that these duties don't add up to another easy 8 hours per week of "donated time."

I'm tired, so let me once again refresh the main points of all of this, attempting to answer the original question of, "why are they striking?"

Sometimes to get a raise, you have to go on strike. Ask millions of Americans who are a part of one union or another. They work just like you and I, and they want more money, don't tell me that you've never been un-satisfied with your pay.

They request an un-reasonable raise from the school district. Simple bargaining tactics, just like you or I would use when selling a boat, the seller asks more than he expects to get, the buyer counters with less than he expects to pay, they settle for a figure inbetween.

I've been trying to avoid throwing the classic, "And just think how important teachers are to your kids" line in here, but it does have a place.

Teachers don't sign any contracts which specify extra work hours, class sizes, or which courses in further education the school district will force them to take in the years to come. They do agree to a 40 hour work week 9 months of the year. Now you just think, hopefully understanding what I've written previously about a teacher's extra time spent outside the 40 hour week, and try to imagine how it would be if a teacher REFUSED to spend a second extra beyond the 40 hour a week contract.

If your child needed extra help after school, it would be REFUSED.

If you wanted to talk to your child's teacher when you got off work at 4 PM, it would be REFUSED.

If a teacher gave your child an F on and paper, and didn't take the time to comment on what to change or how to better it, then what? You can't learn without some help, and an F on a paper tells a child absolutely nothing about what needs to be changed or what he did wrong.

What this all boils down to is that teachers realize that in order to effectively do their job, they will have to give extra time to the students and to the program. Essentially, this is donated time outside of their 40 hour work week(how many of you get done with work on Friday and ask a little kid if he needs help learning to read?) Teachers know that they can just flunk a student if he can't read, and they also know that if they don't help that kid learn to read, then there's a good chance that no one else will.

So here's the deal. Teachers know that they'll work a bit of donated overtime, but if there are growing class sizes and fewer teachers, then teachers are expected to work more and more donated overtime. There will be a breaking point at which the teachers decide they're not getting paid enough. At this point, they go on strike, because you can be damn sure that no school district will say, "Oh, you look over-worked and underpaid, let me give you a raise."

So there you have it, they're on strike, they signed on willing to do a certain amount of work, and their bosses now want them to do more work. More work should equal more pay shouldn't it? I doubt that's a radical idea in anyone's book.

That's why teachers go on strike,

David

Well David I see you looked at this with a perspective of the worst possible senerio for the teachers. I remember doing one 10 page essay in school. 90% of the tive we got our papers back before the end of the day. So that blows that whole theory you had completely out of the water. Which gives them back "most" of their weekends and now we're back to a 9 month job.

Everyone that goes into a profession should and usually does know what they're getting themselves into.

I to agree that the teachers are important to our kids, but they aren't caring too much about the kids right now. Once again I ask why they don't work without a contract until they get it resolved as to not hurt the kids which are the big losers here.

As someone mentioned prior. What about the seniors? College? What about the kids who have summer jobs already lined out or will be looking come summertime? Think maybe they won't have a good shot at a summer job because by the time they get out of school the jobs will already be filled. HMMMMM never thought about that did you?

These aren't my kids but I do feel sorry for them.

I think we all need to step back and take a good look at what's happening here... Teachers are not the villians that most of these posts paint them to be. You want to know where your money is going? Ask your local school board about ADMINISTRATIVE salaries. Administrators never have to strike, because year in and year out, they get pay raises, usually board approved, that put them miles ahead of any of the highest paid teachers. And what do they do to warrant these raises? Attend meetings and browbeat the people in the trenches(teachers and support staff), for not doing things THEIR way. Then there are bonuses, handed out left and right for merely doing what is expected of them in their lofty positions. I know of one that received $60,000 for overseeing a future relocation of central administration staff to a new building. That is just one of the inequities going on DAILY in your local school districts.I think people should quit bashing teachers, and go to your school board and ask why are we paying administrators so much, when the people that we entrust with the molding of young minds get left further behind.
Why are there so many IMMSU's ( Ineffectual Middle Management Suck-Ups) making on average of 55-60K a year? Because the upper level admin needs to have ***-kissers surrounding them to insulate them from what should be a wary public. In closing, TALK TO YOUR SCHOOL BOARD!

"I remember doing one 10 page essay in school. 90% of the tive we got our papers back before the end of the day. So that blows that whole theory you had completely out of the water. "

Only if you think that one 10 page paper is the ONLY time your teacher had to work past the 8hrs./day he/she was paid for.

I notice Marysville (school district) posts the top 20 teacher's salaries on their official site. It's impressive...I wish I made that much. On the surface it's sort of flies in the face of the teacher's complaints. I WOULD like to see what the bottom 20 are paid, though. Why don't they post that as well?

cfm, you play the baffle 'em with bullsh!t card well. Cut and paste, indeed.

If you could do me a favor and try and support your individual complaints, points, assertions, whatever you'd like to call them, individually, with your sources, it would help a lot. You never know, I might even agree with you on the grounds of your argument.

The old "here's my proof, it's up to you do dig through it and see which paragraph of the code supports each of my 50 anecdotal claims" just doesn't work well for someone with a busy life.

Thanks, I know you'll be supportive.

As a teacher, I find this stuff rather entertaining. I will continue to keep my mouth shut......However, the beginning of this post discussed the state salary schedule for teachers. This is my fourth year and I am making far less than previous posts indicated. However, I'm not complaining. The whole strike issue stems from many issues that I don't expect the common lay person to understand. I'm not going to get into it, but teachers do have a valid point. In the meantime, I'm just going to keep being the best teacher I can be and continue to fish like a crazed maniac....
Cuttie

Cutty, I'm on your side! Don't let the uninformed rattle you!

Cutty, I'm on your side! Don't let the uninformed rattle you!

My sister works for the state as a secretary. She has not recevied a raise of any kind for 3 years. Not enough money in the budget. But the cost of her medical coverage goes up every year. So in effect she makes less now than 3 years ago. She also cannot strike.

Teachers at least were going to get something. Because of that there is no way I could support a teachers strike. If you think I am uninformed oh well.

I rest my case.

welcome to the real world...

not only have I taken a cut in pay my insurance price has almost doubled... time to suck it up... or find a new job...

I also know a number of teachers. And I never said my sister was complaining. but when I see the unemployment numbers and see how many people are lossing thier jobs at Boing and other places. All I can think is that maybe the teachers should say to themselves,"self at least I have a job".

May this is not the best time to put a further drain on the econmey.

By the way I do infact vote in favor of all school levies. I just don't think now was the best time to do something like this.

CF, if all levies are corrupt, then could it be that the authors of said levies are the ones who are corrupt also? Like I said before, and you also noted, ADMINISTRATION are to blame for the state of education, not the people expected to implement their crooked agendas. Teachers are only the most visible targets, and are innocent. ASK YOUR SCHOOL BOARD! They are the ones which allow such travesty, and should be removed the same way as they were inserted, by election. Most of these boards are in the pockets of just about every superintendent in the state. Nepotism, cronyism, and just plain arrogance are their order of march.Time for ALL taxpayers to start asking REAL questions about school administration, before all the qualified and competent teachers do leave for California!

cfm, thanks for that. Not that you have any obligation to care about what I think, but that was much easier for me to stomach.

"Almost no one who is 61 or older who lives in a small town owns that much property"

Then it's "almost" no votes, and it's "almost" no increase in your taxes, right? That would be MY taxes too, by the way. I'm certainly not exempt by those criteria you listed.

Your biggest beef seems to be the cost of athletics, from your last post. Good luck shooting that stuff down, man. Whew.

Most people just don't have the time to look into this stuff, and frankly how many people with kids in a school district want to go around publicy and call foul on programs that their kids are involved with?

And that guy that lives outside the county, but has kids in your school district? What's that about? Why are his kids not in his county's schools? I assume it's probably a special case of proximity to schools, but it seems there should be an exception that allows people to pay into their own district....either that or they don't get officialy involved with stumping for them...or both. That's pretty screwed up if you ask me.

BW, I Interpreted your post wrong... I aggree 100% with what you are saying...

Skywalker

No! That is not right!

You said;
"Then it's "almost" no votes, and it's "almost" no increase in your taxes, right? That would be MY taxes too, by the way. I'm certainly not exempt by those criteria you listed."

The biggest number of voters who are over 61 lives within the city limits. There are not that many voters who live outside the city limits that are over 61. They enjoy the perks of doctors and stores that are close by.

That is why the schools wine and dine these people! They vote, but they will not have to pay any levy tax!

Is this any clearer?

Cowlitzfisherman

Jeeeeez and I'm the dumb one. Pull your monkey head out of you know where and pay attention. NO ONE is saying that the teachers don't deserve to get payed for what they're worth. I want to know why they aren't giving two $h!ts about the kids through all this. You teachers on this board keep saying you went into this to make a difference, or because you enjoy helping kids. If thats the case I'm betting at least half of the ones striking would say the same, but they're actions are not backing that up.

Also why don't we get rid of the ten year and cull out the worthless teachers and then we'd be even more willing to give you more money.

wasn't there an initiative ,that the legislature derailed, that was just passed that would have given teachers raises? kinda like cola?

and forget about the whole 'what about the children?' thing....if we as a society cared about children we'd complain about a system where both parents NEED to work 40+ hours a week to survive instead of bein' able to spend time with 'em...instead of letting daycare raise them...

If my job required the education a teachers does,no way in hell I work for less than 40k to start.

cfm, sorry, I reread your post and see where I lost track of your point. Duh.

I guess my point in all of this is that frankly I'm willing to live with it. I have kids in school and I want them to have the best available curriculum and selection of extra-curricular activities possible. I have a pretty crappy experience with levy failures as a kid and don't want them to go through it themselves.

It may not be the right way to do it, but if it's getting me what I want I'll live with it.

What I don't understand are the exemptions on federal income tax for having kids...why do we get checks for having kids? Because eventually they'll be tax payers?

That my friend... Is the American Way...

I must admit, there are times that fat, dumb, and happy suits me just fine.

As I settle deeper and deeper into these geezer's shoes, it just seems the only way to fly.

Now, get off my lawn, ya punks!

Glowball,


Your logic is faulty. Your logic is that teachers should care more about the kids then their own lively hood. Well I'm a paramedic. And I care about people and I love helping people, but I also do it for a living. The public always screams how teachers should sacrafice their own well being for the kids. Truth is they are just making a living for themselves. Why don't they teach and negotate at the same time you ask. I'm sure they have been negotating all summer long to no avail. Give teachers binding arbitration and it will all be a mute point.

Remember the vote we had two years ago to make cost of living raises mandatory for teachers. Well the first year instead of a raise the teachers had to work 4 extra days. If they didn't work the extra days, no raise. Thats not a raise, thats more work for more money, they still make the same each hour. This year for their cost of living raise the school used it all paying more for health insurance. I don't have a problem with that. Health insurance is sky rocketing.

Okay, here I go..........

On one hand you make a good point. We do not place our childrens education as our highest priority. We will support some punk sports hero's exhorbitant salary, but not a raise for teachers...... BUT

If teachers really want to see their salaries increase they need to stop fighting the "pay for ability" issue that so many want (including myself). Too many worthless teachers are sitting pretty because of tenure and strong-arm union tactics. If they perform well (easily measured) they should be rewarded for it. If they don't, they lose their job. If this was to be supported by the teachers and the unions, many, many more people would be willing to see salary ranges increase.
Teachers DO know what they are getting into and by going to school to get a teaching degree they are in effect accepting the status quo. Any increase in their pay and/or benefits are then a "happy surprise".
They should not hold our childrens education "hostage", which is exactly what they are doing when they strike..... But they say the children are their #1 priority?
They also need to be vocal when a district builds schools for millions when a far less fancy building could educate just as well and leave plenty for better books, supplies, etc.....
I for one never attended a school that looked even CLOSE to what some of these fancy structures look like, and I received a very good education.......
Teachers that go on strike, IMHO, should be ashamed of themselves...... They are doing nothing more than teaching our kids that if you do not get your way, pout and throw a fit and then you may get your way.. No matter who suffers.
I am in the medical profession (RN) and I will not and have not ever joined in a strike. I have belonged to Nursing Unions (it was required at some hospitals I worked at) but made it clear from the onset that if a strike were to occur, I would not participate. Not trying to place a halo on my head, but patients come before anything, and striking ultimately hurts the patients and places them at risk....

Those that bemoan the teachers salaries, etc., need to also take into consideration the amount of time off, sick time, leave of absense (for cont. education/sabattical), medical benefits, retirement, that they recieve. It is much sweeter than most get in the private sector..... Again, I agree that Americans in general expect the best education for their children but do not want to put out the bucks for it.... But at around $10,000.00/child now the yearly average cost to the taxpayer to educate them, we are not getting our monies worth...... Tossing more $$ their way is not going to improve that.....

MC

Oh come on now Nookie..... Some of them yes, many of them...no.
The fact that they are paying for supplies out of their own pocket is true. That says more for the school district and how they allocate the $$ they receive than it does teachers being underpaid. Hundreds of thousands on sport programs, but pennies for teaching materials... Raising taxes and levies is not going to fix that problem. I work in the medical field and many times I have purchased equipment that I use in my work OUT OF MY OWN POCKET because what the hospital supplies is sometimes broken or low quality. It is still MY choice. No one forces me to do it. Should I scream that I need to make more money because of a choice I make?

As far as spending the summers the way you describe? I have personally known (very well in fact) 5 teachers in the last 12 years and only one of them spends summers the way you describe. 3 were females and as second income earners enjoyed the summers with their children, one (studied and worked) male, and one male that played all summer long......

Refer to my other post regarding americans not placing education at the top of priority list if you care to read my thoughts on that subject....

MC

Well, finally made it through all these posts and since I have been pinned as the boards official racist/biggot I will bring up the subject that no one else here has, and teachers will argue to their death in support of...........
Educating the children of illegal immigrants.

There, I said it. It has long been the bane of California's education system and is causing it to fall apart. Arizona state is bankrupt for the very same reason. Oregon is not far behind, and Washington has got to have the problem as well. Growing up in Everett in the early 60's thru the 70's, I cannot say I remember ever encountering hispanics. Now when I visit all I have to do is go to any Wal Mart and I am amazed at the percentage. Don't get me wrong, this is not a slam on hispanics.... Just a fact that they are welcomed here for cheap labor, illegals cannot pay taxes as they have no SS card or proof of residency, yet we educate their children and the teachers will argue to the death that it is our duty to do that. Same in the Health care profession. I would not ever refuse them healthcare, as that would be inhumane. But when they are discovered here illegally, they need to go back home. Our 1st priority is to our own "citizen" children, and if we cannot afford to give them a good education, then we cannot afford to educate another countries children... Simple as that...... Does anyone realize that if you are illegal and pregnant, you wait till you are in labor and go to the hospital... have the baby.... and you have guaranteed citizenship? The baby born here is a citizen, so the parents are allowed to stay (to take care of their American baby of course)..... It happens on a daily basis at the hospital I work at..... We refer to them as "No Doc's" which means no Doctor (or prenatal care) and no documentation (illegal)......

Our system is and will continue to fall apart.....

I am stating facts as I know them, if I offend anyone with my statements I apologize for offending them, but not making the statements......

MC