stlhdh2o.......

wolves are predators as are coyotes and foxes and that is fine. What has happened with the seals is that us humans have once again got into engineering nature. We have made seals some sort of diety and have thereby changed the natural order of things to an extreme. Prior to the current politically correct mania we see in every aspect of our society seals and sea lions were nowhere near what we see now, atleast around here. We have created a protected population that is so well protected and pampered that it is growing out of control. A little common sense is in order. I am not really advocating mass killing of seals but simply pointing out how far we have come in our crazy quest to engineer nature.

During our recent blackmouth derby we had a big blackmouth on the line West of Point No Point...when the fish was within 50 yards of the boat a semi-circle of seals moved in around the line and all went under at the same time. No more fish. We also saw several seals (not sea lions) coming to the surface with salmon in their mouths. Hunters thin herds of deer and elk and help stabilize the populations all over the country. Too many would result in starvation and death anyway. Perhaps the same thing is happening to the seal population. I think the Makah's have the right idea. Man afterall is a predator too. A natural predator just like the seals in the food chain. I don't expect to see much change unless the salmon runs collapse and the seals move out of Puget Sound. Could happen I guess.

"We have made seals some sort of diety and have thereby changed the natural order of things to an extreme. "

substitute 'hatchery fish' for seals in your argument.

you are absolutely correct (for a change)....no just kidding...correct. We have engineered much in our environment. Some good and alot bad.

yeah... well, the dingo ate my baby!

Grandpa, the story about the blackmouth at Pt no Pt is all too true for most of us that fish there. It wasn't like this years ago and I too think the protection of the seals is probably to blame. Whatever is to blame something needs to be done. They don't hunt for themselves anymore they let us do it for them.
It's time that something be done to thin their numbers as there is no predator out there doing it anymore.

Love those pinniped stories! I was in a three way brawl with a sealion and a seal for a nice 14lb BM off of Hat Island a couple of years ago. I had been trying to be very discreet after hooking the fish cause I had seen the sealion. Didnt know the seal was around until it grabbed the fish. Well the sealion soon took notice and actually knocked the fish out of the seals grasp several times and each time I was able to get the fish closer to the boat. After the last time he knocked the fish off I was able to reel like crazy and get the the fish into the boat minus its tail.

Its not uncommon these days to see mamma seals showing their pups the fine art of stealing fish off of fishing lines. Whenever I have one in tow I usually try to troll close to some other boat and can usually get the buggers follow them.

interesting topic. i have never had a salmon stolen by either seals or sea-lions at neah bay... and i've hooked and played salmon with sealions within 50 yards of the boat. i've had rockfish taken by seals in the shallows, but not sea-lions.

i've had more salmon chased by dogfish than seals or sea-lions and more salmon eaten off the line by blue sharks. this post might jinx my streak of good luck... next year will probably be the year they start following me.

chris

Another shining example of politically correct feel good policies gone wrong is the silly protection of the terns in the lower Columbia. The Corps of Engineers dredges and creates and island that is a gathering place for 10s of thousands of terns who feed on salmon and steelhead smolt by the ton. So we move them to their own little island further down...we artificially protect them so they can further imbalance nature. If you think about it it is a big joke...Once again I will say we could introduce pigs to the islands and soon there would be no more terns or they would move.

Just thinking I wonder how many of these botched attempts to help things out, had so called scientific studies behind them or were they just somebody's brain fart. I see a lot of people wanting the changes that they believe need to be done with our fisheries put into effect with scientific data I suppose thats about the only way to go about it other than shutting everything down and seeing if it would come back on its own but with all the damage we've already done that would be a hard one to rely on also. I guess sometimes I just have a hard time trusting anybody with something that is important to me.

grandpa, can you legally go onto the isand that the turns use for nesting? what needs to be done, is buy about 6 pairs of mink, let em go on that island, they will breed and no more terns..minks are very aggressive, it might do the job , know of a mink supplier, i will pitch in..

The H.C. seal and sea lions need to be thined out along with P.S. ones too. I have seen seals and swimming up my home river chasing schools of fish. Does some thing need to be done about this?? I have also seen tribal gillnetters pulling in their nets with only 10 fish and the rest just heads and and bones. Should some thing be done about this?? My vote is yes and I will have no problem Killing them Sign me up
DWF

For centuries seals, sealions, salmon and man exsisted peacefully together and each one of them got exactly what they needed from the others.

maybe there should be a harvest on some of these marine mammals however killing them outright and disposing of the carcass is wrong and wasteful.
Also blaming marine mammals for declines in wild salmon populations is innaccuate. There is one species that is the cause of salmon declines, that species is even a mammal. Humans are 100% responsible for the poor salmon runs of the last 100 years and are even partly to blame for the apparent overpopulation of marine mammals and their comcentrated populations that are a direct result hatchery programs. By shortening return times and places fish return we have created localized overabundances of salmon. Predatory species always respond to overpopulation of prey by expanding their own population. our hatchery practices have made it easy for them to survive by creating unnaturally high concentrations of hatchery fish in unnaturally small areas for unnaturally short periods of time.
predatory marine mammals would have less impact if we relied on wild runs which return in smaller concentrations over a greater length of time. Fish would be harder to catch and so there would be fewer mammals feeding upon them. Don't blame these creatures for what we have done!!

also as far as I am concerned they can have all the hatchery fish they want...

Generally I agree with most of what you've stated except for the blame on the hatcheries. What you seem to have omitted is that once the population expands they do'nt care one iota if the food source has an intact adipose fin, as demonstrated by herschiel and his buddies at Ballard.

It's no fun losing a fish to a seal or sealion but hey, thats the way it goes. I'd just as soon not see a harvest on them. I'd rather see a natural increase in the predators that feed on them!

Rob...your points on hatcheries in terms of our manipulation of things is well taken. Unfortunately we have caused many conditions that contribute to the fix we are in now and the hatchery system is one of them. Hatcheries are not the only culprit, however. You shouldn't take your premise that all hatcheries should be shut down and then apply that premise to every argument. If we hadn't make so many mistakes in the past with fisheries management and if we had controlled growth better in the past we may not have needed hatcheries in the first place. We created hatcheries, in part, as mitigation for the damage we had done to the fisheries. Mitigation for creating an artificially large population of seals and sea lions may require further mitigation in the form of thinning the herds. We can't go back to the way things were 100 years ago so we must continue to manipulate our environment I suppose to do the best we can.

I only agree with your second paragraph. The rest sounds really convincing to someboby who doesnt know anything. Thats why your anti hatchery rhetoric is believed by so many people but not us. Evidently you need to check out the studies being done on the Hood canal which show native populations are declining due to seal predation at the mouths of rivers where there is no hatcheries. The hatchery rivers are doing just fine!.

ultimatly it is are fault for the overabundance, but not because of hatcheries its because of the killing of the seal eating Orcas and the failure to manage seal populations accordingly.

I am sure your happy now though because if the new regs get adopted along with the hatchery closures fishing in saltwater and rivers will be virtually nill in five years. That is your goal isnt it?

Grandpa I have never ever even once stated or hinted that I wanted all hatcherys closed. There is no way you could even think that after the things i have posted in here without taking huge assumptions about the things i have said.

Historicaly wild fish return over broader ranges of time than hatchery fish do. For instance the typical hatchery winter steelhead run is in December and january with a few early and a few late. However wild runs have always returned starting in november and lasting through April. This type of thing creates an overpopulation of fish for a very short period of time. Rather than the same population over a long period of time. Thats just common sence. There are not enough wild fish to draw the attention of a large number of these predators.. In hood canal I would be willing to bet that the animals follow the huge chum runs down to Hoodsport and all the other salmon hatcheries in the area then when thoes runs are over they go after the fewer wild fish that are in that area.
Aren't you the guys who are always talking about how much help the Chums in hood canal need and how hatcheries are the answer??
it;s my guess that if it weren't for the astronimical numbers of hatchery fish the sea lions wouldn't be there to eat the wild ones to begin with.. The same thing happens in the Columbia during the spring chinook run which is vastly dominated by hatchery fish. The sea lions wouldn't be there if the eun was just wild. They are just responding to a fake abundance. Same can be said for the Columbia river gilnetters.. They are just responding to a fake abundance!

although i would be happy to listen to what any biologist has to say providing he actually studied this issue

Rob

Over 30 years ago, in 1972, the Marine Mammal Protection Act (MMPA) was passed by the U.S. Congress to protect the many mammals who live in the world's oceans. This legislation is the basis for policies preventing the harassment, capture, injury, or killing of all species of whales, dolphins, seals, and sea lions, as well as walruses, manatees, dugongs, sea otters, and polar bears. It had nothing to do with salmon or steelhead.

That law set up a management regime to reduce marine mammal mortalities and injuries in their interactions with fisheries (gear entanglement, etc.); regulates scientific research in the wild; it established basic requirements for public display of captive marine mammals; it addresses issues specific to the tuna fishery in the eastern tropical Pacific Ocean where dolphins associate with tuna and are harassed, injured, and sometimes killed by fishing practices there; it createed a management regime for native subsistence hunting of marine mammals in Alaska; and regulates the import and export of marine mammals and their products. It did 0 (that's a big nothing) for salmon or steelhead.

They dropped the ball big time on how it would affect other species such as salmon and steelhead!!

No one even thought about what it was going to do to the Northwest salmon and steelhead runs because they were not even being considered at the time to becoming an endangered specie. That is where you are getting all screwed up at! We never had such lopsided numbers of seals vs fish before this law was put into effect. How can you possibly blame the "hatcheries" for the big increase in the seal populations?

The act of 1972 was the cause! So why try to put the blame on the hatchery fish?

The protection act was not only developed to protect seals, it was also directed at the protection and conservation of whales and dolphins (cetaceans) and pinnipeds other than the walrus. Walruses, manatees and dugongs (sirenians), sea otters, and polar bears are under the jurisdiction of the U.S. Fish and Wildlife Service (FWS), in the Department of the Interior.

They never even thought of what the ratifications of this act were to be to the salmon and steelhead runs of the NW.

Under the MMPA, NMFS is responsible for the management and conservation of whales and dolphins (cetaceans) and pinnipeds other than the walrus. Walruses, manatees and dugongs (sirenians), sea otters, and polar bears are under the jurisdiction of the U.S. Fish and Wildlife Service (FWS), in the Department of the Interior.

The MMPA underwent some significant changes in its 1994 amendments, especially with respect to switching the emphasis for pinnipeds from protection to management. NMFS has proposed even greater changes for the next reauthorization.

You have to remember that the 1972 Marine Mammal Protection Act established a Federal responsibility to conserve marine mammals with management vested in the Department of Interior for sea otter, walrus, polar bear, dugong, and manatee. The Department of Commerce is responsible for cetaceans and pinnipeds, other than the walrus. . . not salmon or steelhead!

With certain specified exceptions, the Act establishes a moratorium on the taking and importation of marine mammals as well as products taken from them, and establishes procedures for waiving the moratorium and transferring management responsibility to the States. No one even was thinking about Salmon or steelhead at the time!

Commercial hunting of seals in the 18th and 19th century and in the early years of this century played a large role in pinniped population declines. Other factors involved have been coastal development and competition with man for prey species
Maybe Rob, you need to read;
http://www.nwr.noaa.gov/mmammals/pinnipeds/2001_application.pdf

Rob, when you get done reading that one, please make sure you also read this one too; http://www.nwr.noaa.gov/mmammals/pinnipeds/1995_EA.pdf

Now maybe you will understand that these guys eat any fish that gets in front of them, and not just "hatchery fish". Wild fish are some of there most favorite meals!

Seals became endangered specie before salmon did, and they are now part of the problem.


Cowlitzfisherman

Hmmm... I wonder if the tribes might be able to substitute a little fresh meat and furs for fish roe in their over seas markets.

seal fin soup,sea lion chop suey........

Rob..you are not convincing me. From all I have read ..and I do read your posts thoroughly..I feel you are anti-hatchery...period. One way street....wild only.
Sorry man but that is what I get from reading your posts. Maybe I better read more carefully.