Now, Native Americans remain at the bottom in almost every measurable economic category. Indians earn only a little more than half as much money as the average American -- less money per capita than whites, blacks, Asian Americans and Hispanics. Nearly a third of Native Americans live in poverty, which is more than twice the rate for Americans in general. And Indians are far more liable to succumb to diseases associated with the poor -- four times as likely to die of alcoholism, three times as likely to die of tuberculosis, nearly twice as likely to die of diabetes.

It appears to me that all the special rights afforded indian tribes are nothing more than crutches and hand outs. Historically all the programs of the BIA have been a dismal disaster. Maybe if we had left well enough alone many years ago the tribes would have competed in society like every other race. The welfare system has simply created a nation of underachievers trapped in a viscious cycle of poverty and alcoholism. Atleast the Tulalips and Muckleshoots are starting to do something for their people but the tiny minority on top is still skimming all the cream. The rank and file are still poor and lagging further and further behind even as casino revenues shoot through the roof. So I guess they fish because they still have to. Too bad.

As one Tulalip fishermen once told me "If you had the choice, wouldn't you rather be out here on this beautiful bay tending your nets rather than standing on your feet all night while dealing cards and choking on cig smoke."

Can't say that I disagreed with him.

BD

you guys pretty much said my answer... because they can. Personally I believe the days of netting for money should be over.

Fish for heritage, fish for religious ceremony, but please dont fish for asia...

I just hope that some day the WDFW doesn't screw me out of passing my heritage to my son so some "true" natives can sell fish in commercial markets!

I don't remember the chief's name and I can't recall the quote exactly but I think it was a Hudson's Bay Captain who offered the chief and his tribal members steady work and two weeks off per year. The chief replied "before the white man we only worked two weeks a year".

Sooooo AFTER the white man do they work more than two weeks a year? Some sure do but alot do not. Why bother with all that free stuff. I think there may be some romance left in the troll fleet but netting Chums for eggs lacks a certain appeal of the good old outdoors.

The native americans that only worked two weeks a year lived off those that worked all year... :p

Living off the land is a full time job!

Piper,

According to the author of Guns, Germs, and Steel, an anthology of human societal development, people in subsistence societies tend to average about 4 hours a day in living off the land. Greed evolved and is a learned human attribute.

Grandpa,

As already mentioned, treaty fishermen continue to fish because they can, because they enjoy it, and because it's the most viable economic activity readily available to some. That said, I'll repeat: the market is having a serious effect on treaty fishing. I've known a young Indian who is now his Tribe's fisheries manager. He told me that for three seasons now, the tribe has used casino revenue to pay several Tribal fishermen to exercise the Tribe's treaty fishing right by paying the difference between the ex-vessel price for fish and the cost of fishing. They sell some of this catch and use the rest for Tribal ceremonies and subsistence.

I'm all for them fishing for ceremonial and subsistence use, but fishing for chum eggs for Asia seems undignified to me.

Sincerely,

Salmo g.

but they didn't have email and the internet to distract them

It pains me to say it, but it's all our own fault ( or our ancestors). They should have been assimilated just like every other culture before them in the history of mankind.

I hold no ill will towards native americans, but I abhore what we have allowed them to become. It's no wonder they point the finger at us & blame all their ills against us.

And by continuing the status quo it will only perpetuate their demise. They may enjoy special rights but at what cost to their culture & collective conscience?

"I am 100% in agreement with this. If the Native people had to compete, grow, learn and adapt to society then none of these problems would exist today."

I find this statement objectionable to the extreme. Why not just say "if they tried to be more like white people"...it's the exact same thing and equally as racist, IMO.

Many of the Indians in South/Central America and Mexico were assimilated into colonial society and look at the problems there.

You are oversimplifying the problem, and it doesn't do much good to say if they had been assimilated things would be just perfect.

I love the Indian and think it's wondeful that they are surviving the holocaust. Maybe you should give them small pox blankets in exchange for those treaty rights they bargained for. That would get rid of your Indian problems for sure, but hopefully in this climate of hate and war this administration want turn a blind eye and allow it, just to get your vote in 2004. After all, hate and fear gets votes, doesn't it?

Same ole nasty hate, when will it ever end? One might think that the purpose of INDIAN threads like this one is to make the INDIAN as a people another of our many "Axis of Evil" targets. Indian wars re-visited. I'm not Indian but I get concerned when I read where a hater is trying to package all Indians as less deserving of respect that he is. What about all the Indians ( the majority) that are doing their best in getting out of life, that which is important to them, and not what's important to us, the White man? Why would Indian's, as a people, look to anyone of us on this board for guidance? We need to look closely at how we live our own lives and stop hating on people just because of skin color.

There is only one Judge and that's God, which is not you or me. Peace on Earth and good will to all men.

John Lee,
I dont believe there is anything being said about hating indians, it more about hating the measures they have had to take to get by...
Thats all...

I respect their ancient heritage and culture and the wish there was more of that taught to the younger generations. We need more respect for the environment and less of the how much can we take and sell...

Peace

Piper

It was not you that I was referring to at all. You are cool with me as many others are.

I just think that coming from where we sit, it is hard to see that what looks easy for us, (the white Monday morning quarterback of Indian chiefs)) is not so easy if you had to walk a mile in their shoes.

In a struggle to survive, sometimes those that are doing the struggling are not as politically correct in the choices they have to make in their day to day struggles as indicated in our past with the slaughter of the Buffallo. I'm sure the Indian were as disgusted with that as we are with nets and such today. How about posting about clear cutting, watershed issues, global warming and other environmental issues which impacts fish. Issues we can discuss and can make a difference? That would mean that we would have to criticize politicians and some of us will never criticize the current administration in any thread, for any reason, wheather it be fish, the Environment, you name it , but time and time again, will blast the Indian. I find it hipocritical and wrong.

As to why they commercially fish I agree with what Mr Vedder says they enjoy it just the same as we do sport fishing. I used to fish commercially in Alaska years ago and I can honestly say it is the only job that I have had that I truly enjoyed. Should they still fish ? I think so for ceremony's and such but I feel they should use historical methods or sport fish gear. As far as some people feeling sorry for them maybe a 100 or so years ago I might have, today not a chance. I feel that their alcoholism, low self esteem and other problems Is not helped by receiving handouts and not having to go out and earn a living like most folks do. As for any debt owed to them I feel it was payed for long before I was ever around. If it weren't for the bleeding heart, goodie too shoes kind of mentality of today they would be a lot better off in my opinion.

The only politician I know of with enough guts to take on the Indian issue was Slade Gorton and the Seattle liberals got him replaced with that lady who wears tennis shoes.

The answer to Grandpa's question "why do they still fish?" is in the quote at the bottom of Mike B's post. I really enjoy some of the intelligent posts that i see on this board at times.
nuff said.
merry xmas!
Neal

H2O..sometimes you sound intelligent and sometimes I wonder....To question why native Americans cannot seem to ssimilate into society and flourish is far from hate or racism. Milke ellaborated on the point that others have, indeed , flourished on their own with out a special leg up. Some peoples have not. Whether they would have flourished in the absence of special privelages and hand outs is not known. The Puyallup tribe is building a new $200 million dollar casino and doling out $2,000 per month to every man woman and child in their tribe. Will those people flourish? Who knows. My question was simply this: Why do they fish? meaning fish with nets. That's all. To question the status quo is not hate. To object to the treaties and reservation system is not racism.

I think you are confusing disagreeing with your point of view as racist and hateful. Maybe it is actually just correct?

Surecatch hit it on the nose, they enjoy it. Fishing is a spiritual experience for some of them and some of us sporties as well. Did the Makahs get that whale because the needed it? Heck no. Because it was culturaly satisfiing. Just like chistmas is to some of us.
Fishing for a living is hard work. On some rez's its the only work. I might be biased having a Native American wife but we have got plenty of fishing oppurnities as sportsman in this state. An a few tribal salmon trollers have given me info in the past on where to drag my drownrigger balls and it always equals success.
Merry Christmas to all and good fishing to all

One of the self centered, self serving and hateful ego's in this discussion seems to think that all Indians are obligated to keep a tight orbit around his b#*T hole. Having the audacity to speak on behalf of other minorities regarding what it feels like to be a non white and raising a family in America. When in fact, he seems to view minorities and Indians as those other people or not human. Not even aware, that he is reserving the right to Judge or grade their performance from a Racist, Elitist point of view, in the imaginary world, he creates for himself. Hypocritic and wrong.

Why wasn't this thread titled "The Bush administration's environmental policies and there impact on Fish and the Eco-system" or some other title? I think I know why and it's hypocritical, racist and wrong. So keep it up, Great White Monday Morning Quarterback, of Indian Chief's, Washington Redskins and Fishing BB's. You and only you have the wisdom and purity to lead the Indian the right way, and that's gotta be your way. By doing so and under your leadership, you agree to remove them (Indians) from your Axis of Evil agenda and stop dropping hate bombs on our brother's and sister's, the Native American. I will deliver your message and see if they'll go for it.

Oh, by the way it would be good to bring an Indian friend with you, when we draw up that contract. It could help in moving the process along. If you don't have a real Indian friend, try one of the other minority's represented as suiting your standards or check the Yellow pages.

Peace on Earth and good will to all men.

My apologies to all for causing such dissention.

I came to this board to learn about fishing for steelhead, salmon and other great critters of these waters we are so blessed to live around.

Discussions such as this were not expected, nor desired, and while it is clear we are all passionate about our thoughts on the matter, in the future I'll just keep my comments to myself.

Won't make a damn bit of difference in the situation, anyway, and it just ain't worth the stress.

Mike B

Just a question. If say China came over here and kicked our butts. Killed our children and parents. Moved into our houses. Made us live in the swamps. Introduced an entirely new culture and way of life.
How long would it take us to forgive, forget, and adapt to the new culture?
50 yrs? 100 yrs? Would we ever?
How would it feel to be told to get over it and just be like us?
This is really a completely different issue from why do they still fish. Why do any of us fish?
Merry xmas, happy new year, and may many a fish bless your rods!

Atta boy Grandpa !! it took you three posts in a row with no replys to get the same old B.S rolling but you finally got er done. Surprized you don't have some link to this issue to democrates etc.

You do a great job pointing out the obvious, got any solutions ???

Frankly as little as I like seeing 1% of the users taking 50% or more of the (shell)/fish from both public waters and even private lands ... I don't think this thread has mcuh purpose other than bashing, so off to la-la land it goes