IIn the next few months I will buying a new Ford or Dodge 250 pickup. I will use it to haul a camper and to tow a small 16 foot open boat. I wonder do any of you have any opinions on which engine I should be considering and why a Ford or Dodge is better.

I want as small an engine as I can get away with and still haul a nine-foot camper and tow the small boat. All advice will be appreciated.

Going with a smaller motor is probably not a good idea. Nothing worse than being under-powered.

go with the diesle you wont be disapointed. I have a 96 powerstroke ford f250 and I get about 19 - 20 mpg and have had no problems and the motor is as strong now as it was new and I have 155,000 miles on it. Also a nice accessory to have with a camper is the load leveler air bags on the rear.

Diesel if you don't mind the noise and chatter. Of the two I'd go with the cummins. Not exactly small.
As an auto tech before my current occupation, (and a GM guy) I am impressed with that Ford 5.4L. I don't believe that 4.6 is available in the 3/4 ton but I definately would not rec'd that motor anyway.
Chrysler hasn't convied me to even consider buying a rig from them.

FORD TRUCKS ALL THE WAY!!!!

Dave,

My experience with Dodge and use of fleet Chrysler products has cured me of buying another one. Their truck body work still sets an industry low, in my opinion, even if the drive train is as good as anyone's. Ford isn't perfect, but my friends who have them, gas and diesel, range from quite satisfied to extremely satisfied, both for the body work and the mechanical features. I haven't had a Ford myself for so long that I can't make a personal recommendation.

Have fun shopping!

Sincerely,

Salmo g.

Salmo g

Sounds like an endorsement for GM.

Not to change DV's topic, but has anyone had experience with QUADRASTEER.... the GMC four wheel steer option?

Let's hear it all... the good, the bad, and the downright ugly. Remember, firsthand experience speaks the loudest.

Dave...You picked a category even more volatile for feet-planted-firmly-in-the-mud opinions than politics with this one. Already the absolutes are flying.....It reminds me of high school...you had the Mopar group, the Ford group and the Chevy group....all so cock-sure that their logo was the only good one.

Anyway a friend just bought a Dodge 1 ton 4 door with the 2004 Cummins diesel. It is quiet and nicely appointed and gets gas mileage in that 18-22 mpg range which is the real key. He was always a Ford man so it surprised me to see the Dodge but he loves it. He is planning to add a large camper and tows a Ranger bass boat. Personally I like the Silverado with the Duramax but i'll bet the Ford is a fine truck as well. The diesels cost a bunch more up front but have lots of torque and the mileage will make it worth it if you keep it for awhile. Personally I drive a Suburban but my next vehicle will be another pickup with the diesel..4 doors and a canopy....I like motels better than campers.

Ford Diesel nuf said

chum eater...you should have been an attorney....."nuf said"....that would win over the jury I bet. Very convincing argument.

I couldn't have said it better myself grandpa!!!

Dodge Cummings has treated me well. Pulls 21 ft Northwest Jet up anything with no problems. Unloaded, gets better than 20 MPG. Ford guys say they get that kind of milage, but they are pulling your leg. Just rode in a ford to Reno, it got 16 MPG towing nothing. Was a nice truck however, very plush. Still, Dodge trucks for me.

From a Chyrsler owner: Go Ford.. Better yet, GO TOYOTA.

Everyone makes a decent product. And if you change vehicles every few years, it probably doesn't matter. But if you are like me and keep vehicles long term... IMHO stay away from Chrysler. It isn't the big things like engines that have driven me away from Chrysler, it is the little things not working.... power door locks....power windows....windshield wipers....water pumps....brakes....

Sorry, but my next vehicle will be another Toyota.

Grampa's got a point here. If your not sure what that is, than reread the original post.
Don't ask him to jump on the same banwagon you're on, try to make a "suggestion" instead.
I've owned mostly GM's and would rec'd quite a few of them. But that doesn't seem to be a choice here. (Sug'd 5.4l Ford)

No Dodge products for me. My Dakota started peeling paint at 7 years, required a paint job just to sell it.
I've got a Chevy Silverado now, very satisfied.

I have a 454 GMC (2500 CC) and a 6.0 liter Chevy (2500HD std cab), the 454 is a thirsty puller, but reliable. The 6.0 is rated at the same HP, lower torque, but pulls trailer really well. I know a buddys 5.9 magnum is no hotrod, and he is always looking for power, and filling it (2500 4x4 SC). The 10 cylinder Ford OTOH has a rep for good pulling and good on gas, know 2 guys with those. The guys I know with 5.4's like them, they are not stellar pullers, and a GM 6.0 will outpull them, but they are reliable and decent on gas. I have heard that the 10 cylinder is about as good on gas as the 5.4-8 cyl though... In the bunch I think the transmission is the weak link, and the GM 4L80E is about as good as it gets in 3/4 ton transmissions.

My 4x4 crew cab F150 with the 5.4 liter V-8 Triton has plenty of power to pull my 22 ft boat with a 5.7 liter Chevy and Volvo penta package. Its the first 8 cylinder I've ever owned. My dad has a 97 F250 power stroke diesel that he uses to haul the farm animals but its in the shop - not firing on al cylinders. I like the Dodge trucks for power but have never been sold on their durability - I know somebody that had his Durango die on him before 100K miles.

My reasoning for a Chevrolet 2500, for what its worth.

I didn’t consider a Dodge because I and everyone I know have had issues with Chrysler Products. Ford just doesn’t measure up favorably. Toyota isn’t anywhere close to having the carrying capacity needed for a 9 ft camper. Ford is marginal unless you buy the 350. No choice, really Chevrolet all of the way.

I just bought a 2004 Chevrolet 2500 Crew Cab LT with the 6.0 V8, and 3.73 locking rear end. The 2500 was the choice instead of the 2500HD because it had enough carrying capacity even with a Crew Cab and still had the Auto setting for 4 wheel drive. It is also 2 inches shorter which is a consideration for parking garages. Auto (All Wheel Drive) is a convenient setting for just in case time without negatively impacting gas mileage. I chose the 3.73 because it should yield slightly better gas mileage compared to the 4.10. I had a 3.73 in a 5.3 Avalanche and since it had plenty of power, I was sure the 6.0 would have plenty too. I didn’t go for the Quadrasteer because I didn’t think I’d get much use out of it.

In comparison, the Ford is Taller, Heavier, Longer, Rides worse (straight front axle), seats aren't as comfortable, doesn't have dual climate control, and has less carrying capacity. All in all, it’s only a choice about which Chevrolet to buy. BTW, I disqualified the GMC’s because the bumper in the trim package that I wanted had a painted front bumper.

I too own the F150 supercrew (4 door), same engine 5.4L/329 CID.

For towing your average boat (mine weighs about 4,000#) it works just fine. The camper is not an option with this truck as it only has a 5.5' bed.

I love this truck, and it will serve my needs quite well until I drive it into the ground. It has plenty of power and after I chipped it and added the K&N filter, it just got better.

My only issue, other than the non-standard short bed, was the stock tires. Replace them with some quality LT rated 10-ply tires. I had 5 flats in 12 months with the stock 4-ply tires.

Andy

Dave,

Regardless of the make you choose, I think if you're hauling a camper and pulling a trailer you'll be much better off with the diesel. Although I cannot back that up with any anecdotal testimony, other than my next pickup will be a diesel.

Thanks for a lot of food for thought.

Now who makes the quietest diesel?

I think the new Cummins is the quietest of the diesels.

Dogfish you do bring up a good point about the short 5.5 ft bed on the F150 supercrew. Since it is shorter I put on a toneau cover instead of a canopy. I still have a tall 6 ft canopy from my old Ranger extended cab that I'm looking to sell for almost free. When I do a three day weekend fishing jorney I just put my stuff in back and crawl up in the back of the cab, curl up and sleep. My son can fit across the front seats. Probably not the best set up but it will work for a night or two in the spring, summer, or fall.

I tend to like Ford better than Dodge. My Bose has a 2003 F-350 crew cab. That thing has lots of power. But it has had its problems. The pickup has the 6.0L diesel. The motor had to be replaced after 7000 miles. The Ford dealer told him the cam bearing went bad. Some times the transmission makes a funny noise when it down shifts also. I haven't heard of anyone else having problems. The Dodge diesel is a lot quieter now, and cheaper than the Ford.

Duramax, definately the quietest up until '03 that I've heard.
Topwater, you care to comment?
Also, less of that "shaking chatter" during idle than other recent deisels.
I understood that before it became available in the light truck market that it was used commercially in Isuzu box van chasis, and had good feedback as far as the reliability, economy, and so on.
I wouldn't call any deisel "small" in a truck, but can't deny small fuel consumption (and big power). Or cheap.
I've R' and R' enough tranny's off of that 6.0l Ford to know that I wouldn't spend my money on it. Plenty of power, but that's why I said Cummins over Powerstroke earlier.
My old man was a deisel mechanic for 20 years and he'd say GM w/duramax. He's actually been contenplating signing his life away on a new one for months, but has yet to bite.
Myself, I'm not in the market for one, but those deisels are comparitively quiet.

i'd take the f250 with a powerstroke and 6 speed manual, hands down

most people's impression of diesel is from the 80s when the geniuses at GM decided to take a 350 and crank up the compression and call it a diesel. it was unreliable, noisy and smoked a lot. real diesel motors are nothing like that

I would go for a diesel in a Ford or Dodge the only problem I have with chevy's is headroom being that I'm 6'4" they don't have any and for some reason every other one I see on the road has a burned out fog lamp what's up with that . I would say they are all pretty equal it just comes down to who is going to give the best deal.

Dave, my 2004 F-350 might not be the quietest, although it is much quieter than my 99 Powerstroke. It is rated the best tow vehicle amongst other things, and the new tranny is quite nice. I know you said small engine, but you can't have everything, espescially when you add camper and toys.

Steve Ng

I have a 2000 Ford F-250, 7.3 diesel and I'm biased but I do know something about each.

I have heard that the aluminum heads on the Duramax's are giving up at about 60,000 miles. They ride more like a car but you pay for it big time in overall durability. I rode in a four door and it was nice but the durability isn't there and neither is the price.

Whoever said the cummins is the quietest must be high. It is the loudest out of the three. It also has an outdated 4 speed transmission.

I have heard of some transmission problems from Ford but not from anyone that I know. I don't know the exact numbers but Ford has put a very good warranty behind the new transmission, and the one in my 2000 has performed flawlessly over 78,000 miles. The only thing I did was replace the water pump and I only paid a $100 with the powertrain warranty deductible.

As far as power goes all three will get the job done in the diesel market and all have excellent fuel economy. However, the new Ford engine will leave the other two in the dust.

I'm not sure how Toyota fits in here or why it was mentioned, you can't even make a comparison. In my opinion they are junk and I have ridden in them all.

I would stongly suggest staying away from any of the gas motors especially if you are pulling. The diesels now, are quiet, they love to pull and the fuel economy is unbeatable. Take a test drive in one of the new diesels and you will be amazed at how quiet it is inside and out, it's also 600lbs lighter than the old 7.3 in the Ford. 1.Ford 2.Dodge 3. Chevy

Dodge all they way! There's a reason they have a million mile club for diesel dodges. My uncle drives a 96' Cummings, and hauls a 11 1/2 ft Artic Fox camper, a drift boat. Plus he hauls a 33' travel trailer, over Ryegrass pass at 65 mph in overdrive. averages around 20mph, exhaust brake, boosted line pressure to tranny, lockable torqconverter, and the list goes on. He just converted it to a dually for towing the camper, much more stable.

Fords frame and body flex too much for my taste.

I'd rather be Cumming, than Stroking!

elkman

FishNg1

I can't decide which hawg is prettier:

the beautiful king in your avatar or that beautiful truck!

at the risk of straying a bit off topic:

i really wish toyota would bring a diesel truck to the us. then i could really laugh at some of you knuckleheads

i don't consider the tacoma much of a truck. their older pickups are very much trucks, and incredibly dependable. though you can't really tow a big sled with a 4 banger, many of them were 1 ton pickups, the lowest payload you could get was 1/2 ton

and exactly how many of your fords/chevies/dodges have over 300,000 miles on them with no major problems? my toyota does, and still runs like butter. i'm probably going to see 1,000,000 after an engine rebuild and general maintainance

my perfect truck would be a toyota diesel, straight front axle, manual transmission, locking hubs, with a locking rear axle

HI DAVE
I HAVE A 2001 2500 HD CHEV CREW CAB WITH THE DURAMAX/ALISON COMBO AND I AM REALY PLEASED. THE DURAMAX IS SUPER QUIET AND THE ALLISON HAS NICE SMOOTH CRISP SHIFTS AND THE TOW HAUL OPTION IS GREAT FOR TOWING. THE EMPTY WEIGHT IS 6300 LBS AND THE GVW IS 9200 KEEP THIS IN MIND IF YOU WILL BE TOWING AND HAULING A CAMPER YOU DONT WANT TO SMALL OF A TRUCK. I TOW A 22' ARIMA AND IT HARDLY NO'S ITS THERE.
GOOD LUCK
BEAR

being a dodge mechanic i can only speak for dodges. i know that in the next year or so that dodge plans on producing diesels in the 350hp range. the 03 and later diesels i believe to be as quiet as the duramax. the 03.5 and later trucks have beefed up automatics. also in 03, on the 3/4 and 1 ton trucks they started using american(chevy) axles instead of dana axles. major improvement. i have been around all the other diesels, except the new ford 6.0, and wouldnt mind owning any of them. the most important part is getting a good deal. go with a fleet salesman. you can get the truck at the dealer for only about 100 dollars over invoice. also a good time of year for huge rebates on 03 models. heard of a deal the other day where a truck was sold, the second sticker said 40k, through the fleet sales dept and after rebates, the bill came to 28k and some change for a diesel truck.

I was a long time ford man until this year when I bought a new dodge with the cummins. There was nothing wrong with my powerstroke I just had to see what all the hype was with the new dodge. I'm very happy with my new truck.

I think ford builds the nicer truck, but dodge has the proven engine. Combine the two and you'd have a match made in heaven.

Search some diesel forums and you'll see what others have to say.

When you go to buy a new truck I'd do it in Lewis county. You'll save a few hundred in taxes. Which is the only difference between most dealers. Chehalis and longview both have good dealers. I bought mine at Mccords in longview from John Goodman.

Another side note. I've been getting a little better than 18mpg even with the winter fuel and some offroading. Not bad in my book.

Good luck

I'd say your biased. There is nothing wrong with the heads on a D-max. Giving up at 60K? Whatever dude.

I can play your game too. Nothing wrong with the Ford trannys? The tranny in my brothers 99 SD went out at 40K. The tranny in my moms 97 F-350 went out 3 times before 75K. My brother tows a 15' Smokercraft. I towed it behind my 98 Ranger for almost 30K with no tranny problems. I guess if your gonna tow you better get a Ranger,cause a SD tranny wont take towing a 1000lb boat.


The big three all make good rigs. It's like anything else,you make a few million of something and you're bound to make a bad one on occasion.

Dave....Last night I was playing cards with a friend who just got a 2003 Dodge with the Cummins...He always had Fords and I have always had Chevys...I told him about this debate over which truck is best and asked why he chose the Dodge...First he said it was 2003 truck of the year...then he pointed out the criteria...he wants to haul a pretty good sized camper and tow his boat. He said the Dodge one ton (not a dually) had the best payload and the Cummins combo sold him...He said he would have gone with the Chevy because the Duramax / Allison 6 speed auto trans is hard to match but the payload didn't work for him.....He also said that Dodge was coming out with a new diesel in 2004 with 600 ftlbs of torque and I think he said it was a 4 cyl....

Of course, everyone thinks that the truck they purchased is the smartest one or they would not have purchased it. Take a look at the payload capacity you need and then compare trucks...If you drive alot of miles and don't trade trucks too often then the diesel is the way to go. For my money the Silverado 2500HD is it with the Duramax and Allison 6 speed automatic. When you see us in February you can see all three top trucks in the parking lot.

Dave this truck looks to be a great buy http://www.ifish.net/ubb/ultimatebb.php?ubb=get_topic;f=18;t=001749

Dave, with your requirements of being able to carry a 9' camper and a 16' open boat you really don't need the expense and hassle of a diesel engine. If this is going to be your primary mode of transport; look at how often you will be putting it under load, and just how long you intend to keep the vehicle. The breakeven point on a diesel vs gas is nearly 200,000 miles. Dodge's new hemi gas engine will meet your needs. However if you do intend to get a 13' camper and a 24' boat then by all means get a diesel.

Gads, don't get a ford or a dodge, get a chev or GMC diesel with the allison tranny. You will have nothing but blown up trannys with the other 2 of the big 3 - found out the hard way myself The chevy has given me absolutely 0 problems, drives much better, turns much tighter, has more power, and uses less fuel (I get 22 mpg empty believe it or not )

I agree with Spawnout

Ditto

HBP,

First your an idiot, because I already said I am biased towards Fords. And it is well documented that the Chevy's have problems with the aluminum heads. You can check the Chevy discussion boards yourself.

Even though I'm biased I still mentioned that there have been some problems with the Ford tranny. However, there are 4 strokers in my family with zero maintenance problems. I have 3 different friends with strokers and zero maintenance problems.

I also have a friend with a 2003 Duromax and one with a 2002 Dodge. Both have had significant problems both with engine and the dodge with transimission and rear end problems. I tend to believe that part of the problem is the way they drive.

Whoever was talking about the Toyota diesel is laughable. Those old toyota's that are so tough usually sound like a box of marbles going down the road, and generally have been driven like a car. If they have been taken off road regular they are usually saved for parts at a wrecking yard somewhere.

I got into an accident with a Toyota Tacoma. It was the other guys fault and that super tough Tacoma was totalled. My Ford was out of the shop in 5 days. I can't imagine if that Tacoma would have been a diesel.

HbP I've written plenty hear for you to repeat genius...biased, biased, biased, biased.

bullshooter, how is the new dodge tranny going to compair with the allison ?, i have heard that they are going to send them out to a tranny shop and have them beefed up, is that true ?, and also, i have heard that the oil change interval is going up to 15.000 miles, is that true ? thanks.

Political threads are starting to look good again

i believe most of those blown trannies are autos. dodge(and i believe chevy) have the one of the best manual transmissions out there. not sure what ford uses.

Dave,

I am pretty happy with my 01 cummins. But I only have 50K on it. If you buy any Dodge, gas or diesel, watch for steering problems and make damn sure the dealer doesn't give you any grief if it won't stay on the road. Make them take it back. Check ou these links:

http://dodgeram.org/support_pgs/tech_index.htm

http://www.dodgetrucksteeringproblems.com/

Good Luck

boater- i am not sure how the new trans will hold up. have notseen any fail yet and they have been out for about a year now. its basically the same old trans but the engineers have gone through and made the weak points stronger. i still think the allison will be the best trans around for an auto. i would personally pick the six speed with 4:10 gears. the ratio between gears is very close. around town you only need 3rd and 5th. dodge and i believe chevy both use the new venture(new process) 6-speed trannies in their heavy duty applications. and i believe ford uses somthing of their own design or a japanese trans in their 6-speed applications. someone correct me if i am wrong there. they are the only manual trans i have ever seer with an external oil cooler and a pump similar to an automatic trans.

i also read that the oil change interval went way up but still dont recommend it. they added a PCV system to them and i believe that is the reason. if the truck is being used hard i would still go 3-5k between. if you drive it like a car on wide open highway you could probably get away with 15k.

as far as the steering issues go, in 03 they seem to have fixed that. they drive like a dream!!! 4x2 trucks have rack and pinion steering and the 4x4 trucks have a new gear that is nothing short of magic. it has lots of assist at slow speeds even with big tires, only about 2 1/2 turns lock to lock opposed to almost 4 on the old trucks. and very tight and responsive on the highway. i am gonna figure out a way to retrofit one of them on my old 96 diesel. the gears that came out on 99-02 4x4 3/4 and 1ton trucks were pure sh!t!!!!

given all that i think i would still go for the best deal

DAVE:

Go to the link below for your best bet for truck advise.

http://www.whitehouse.gov/news/releases/2002/08/images/20020809-1_ranch8-515h.html

Grandpa: That's a fine looking truck. As soon as I know what make it is I can eliminte it form my list. Who was the monkey driving it?

Thought I'd get a good laugh while I watch the SeaChokes.....I think the Truck is a Ford.

To all who posted and gave their advise a big thank you. Of all the advice I got I think I learned that we all have a favorite car/truck. I know it’s not rational but I had a Chevy many years ago that was an absolute piece of junk, so I'm not buying another one. Yeah, I know they have changed a bit since 1978 but I have a long memory. I do think I will take the advise on guy gave me and buy the one at the best price I can get.

Thanks so much!

P.S. Grandpa: I appreciate your sense of humor. I may have to eliminate the Fords now.

They are advertizing either Dodge H.O cummings 4 door or Ford 6.0 diesels for 30, 267 over here in Idaho.. thats pretty good for over here.