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#242610 - 04/30/04 12:26 AM Chum, endangered on the Skagit?
Titanium Cranium Offline
Returning Adult

Registered: 09/30/02
Posts: 412
Loc: Sequim
First off - I'm not a fan of the floss and flounder crowd at Swift Creek on the Skagit. When the Chum are in, the vast majority of fishermen on this stretch of the river practice little more than snagging - that includes the fly guys too, of which I am one at times so this isn't a flog the fly guy post. There are exceptions to this statement but many also know what I have posted to be true. All you have to do is keep your eyes open!

That said I definately don't agree with the regs this year. Why the need for the release of Chum salmon on the whole river? Even down on the lower river where the fish actually have food value to their meat. I don't have stats in front of me but from fishing this river there don't seem to be a shortage of Chum Salmon. Most people don't even realize they're in the river until at least half the fish have spawned. When the Chum are running, from rockport to Marblemount every shallow slow water area there is - are alive with Chum spawning. I really haven't noticed a change in numbers in the last 15 years. Besides which they're probably the most tenatious of the Salmon species.

I think somethings rotten here. The regs don't actually state that you can't fish for them but you sure can't retain them. Does anyone know why the regs took the drastic change this season on this River? I think this just may be the tip of the iceberg for things to come on this system. Mis-management at it finest.
_________________________
Mark Strand
aka - TC

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#242611 - 04/30/04 12:58 AM Re: Chum, endangered on the Skagit?
Anonymous
Unregistered


Howdy Mark,

I can't make sense of it either. Late last year I was kicking dead Chum off the beach as they were a bit on the ripe side. (big 'uns too).

I don't really see any reason for it, to be honest. Anyone who fishes the Skagit knows the run is a good one...but there may be other factors at work here.

Hey, does this mean no netting of Chum by either commercial or NA groups?

BTW, a gang of us (thanks to Beezer!) got to fish the river yesterday. Finally got one on a plug...ugliest fish I've seen/caught yet...but great battle for a few minutes. Sent him ( about 9.5 - 10 lbs.) back to make lots of babies and maybe he can come back again in a few years (with some real shoulders!)

Ahhhh...next Jan. can't come soon enough!

Mike

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#242612 - 04/30/04 01:15 AM Re: Chum, endangered on the Skagit?
Homer2handed Offline
Repeat Spawner

Registered: 02/06/04
Posts: 1362
Loc: DEADWOOD
Hello Mark

Long time no see

Just look though the regs myself today for an hour not enough time .
To many things going on. By the week end , I should have a handle on some of the new regs not all but some

Brian S.
_________________________
Brian

[img]http://images.google.com/images?q=tbn:VeLkiG2PPCrjzM:www.bunncapitol.com/cookbook[/img]

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#242613 - 04/30/04 09:21 AM Re: Chum, endangered on the Skagit?
Easy Limits Offline
River Nutrients

Registered: 05/06/01
Posts: 2959
Loc: Nisqually
Could be a mis-print in the Regs. Check WDFW's website for errata statements.
_________________________
Carl C.

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#242614 - 04/30/04 09:57 AM Re: Chum, endangered on the Skagit?
db_cooper Offline
Juvenille at Sea

Registered: 01/25/03
Posts: 168
Loc: Foothills, Wa.
The local tribes figured out they can sell the highly valued chum salmon roe to the Asian markets. Last fall we were given tubs full of disected chum salmon for free.

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#242615 - 04/30/04 10:42 AM Re: Chum, endangered on the Skagit?
Beezer Offline
Spawner

Registered: 06/09/99
Posts: 838
Loc: Monroe WA
I seem to remember the local power company dewattering the redds on the Skagit around Thanksgiving or early December about three years ago. Hmmmmmm.

Beezer

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#242616 - 04/30/04 04:03 PM Re: Chum, endangered on the Skagit?
Salmo g. Offline
River Nutrients

Registered: 03/08/99
Posts: 13615
TC,

You might want to check with the WDFW folks in LaConner. Skagit chums are anything but endangered, but some years, usually following a flood cycle, the run returns below the escapement goal, and no fishing for them is allowed. Even years usually see the larger chum runs, and I haven't heard anything yet forecasting a return below escapement. Best to find that out first before concluding mis-management.

Sincerely,

Salmo g.

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#242617 - 04/30/04 04:28 PM Re: Chum, endangered on the Skagit?
Anonymous
Unregistered


Salmo, TC:

4Salt posted this on another board..hope its Ok to post here:

"I think that it may also have something to do with the fact that Seattle City Light reduced their outflow from Baker dam to almost nothing 3 years ago around Thanksgiving. (peak chum spawning time) The result was the de-watering of many ESA listed chinook and chum redds, killing millions of eggs.

WDFW may be playing it safe by not allowing chum retention until the full extent of the damage of that fiasco is known. Seems like a good idea to me. "


Mike

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#242618 - 04/30/04 06:34 PM Re: Chum, endangered on the Skagit?
Homer2handed Offline
Repeat Spawner

Registered: 02/06/04
Posts: 1362
Loc: DEADWOOD
Don't think Seattle City Light had anything to do with it, Puget Sound Energy controls the Dam
_________________________
Brian

[img]http://images.google.com/images?q=tbn:VeLkiG2PPCrjzM:www.bunncapitol.com/cookbook[/img]

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#242619 - 04/30/04 06:43 PM Re: Chum, endangered on the Skagit?
4Salt Offline
River Nutrients

Registered: 03/07/00
Posts: 2955
Loc: Lynnwood, WA
He's right Mike, PSE owns the Baker river dams. SCL operates Diablo and Ross though, I believe.

Regardless of who owns what, like Beezer also said, the event happened, and it could be a major factor in WDFW's decision to close retention of chums this year.
_________________________
A day late and a dollar short...

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#242620 - 04/30/04 08:00 PM Re: Chum, endangered on the Skagit?
Plunker Offline
Spawner

Registered: 04/01/00
Posts: 511
Loc: Skagit Valley
The reason the regs say to release chums on the Skagit this year is pretty simple.

It is not a secret nor is it rocket science.

Homer - Ask Polly about it. She knows!
Then post the answer here to end the speculation.

I would but I'm kinda full of crap right now so I better go take a dump. :p

BTW: neither the SCL nor the PSE dams were letting water through when the redds were de-watered and they were re-watered soon enough to prevent any loss.
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Why are "wild fish" made of meat?

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#242621 - 04/30/04 08:13 PM Re: Chum, endangered on the Skagit?
Salmo g. Offline
River Nutrients

Registered: 03/08/99
Posts: 13615
Mike,

PSE owns and operates the Baker dams, which contributed to high spawning flows in 2001 and then ran out of water to incubate eggs downstream of the Baker River prior to their emergence. Most Skagit chinook and chum - the affected species - mature at age 4, so this effect would extend only to returning 3 year olds in 2004. I think it’s unlikely this is the reason for a prospective closure.

Plunk,

You’re incorrect about the dewatering effect. PSE, and the Baker River sub-basin didn’t have enough water to incubate those chinook and chum eggs in the Skagit downstream of the Baker River through emergence. As I recall, about 10% of the incubating chinook eggs in the affected river reach were lost to dewatering and an unknown number of chum because the chum redd distribution wasn’t well enough documented. I made the loss estimate, but would have to go look it up to verify the number. However, I agree, this isn’t likely the reason for restricting chum fishing.

And . . . could you spare us the details of your personal issues in the future. Thanks.

Sincerely,

Salmo g.

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#242622 - 04/30/04 08:32 PM Re: Chum, endangered on the Skagit?
Anonymous
Unregistered


Gosh 4Salt...got that info from you and here you are...changing your mind!

May a great

Salmo,

Thanks for the explanation. Actually, I just came back from a drive up to Lake Shannon with my daughter. Lots of folks fishing, didn't see much catching going on (unless it was Buddummers being tossed from boat to boat).

Saw that PSE had the dams.

Well, for whatever the reason we have no Chum this year. I am sure there was a good reason for it...just nosy to know what it was.

Plunker: I'm with Salmo. Don't care to hear of your bodily functions... :rolleyes:

Mike

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#242623 - 04/30/04 09:57 PM Re: Chum, endangered on the Skagit?
Smalma Offline
River Nutrients

Registered: 11/25/01
Posts: 2834
Loc: Marysville
Titanium -
Yep -another example of mis-management

check: http://wdfw.wa.gov/fish/northfalcon/chum.htm

The forecast for Skagit chums for this year is 118,000 fish. As I recall the even year escapement goal is 117,000.

Heaven forbid that anglers be required to set on the bank when there aren't hravestable numbers of fish.

Salmo -
Think that the flow condition the guys are referring to is the low flows that occurred Thanksgiving weekend. The flows dropped over the holiday weekend to or near historic lows. My foggy mind seems to recall that being in 2000.

Tight lines
S malma

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#242624 - 05/01/04 01:17 AM Re: Chum, endangered on the Skagit?
Salmo g. Offline
River Nutrients

Registered: 03/08/99
Posts: 13615
Smalma,

Thanks. I was thinking that was 2001, but I track too many events for too many stocks on too many rivers to trust it all to memory any more.

Pretty rare for a "drought" to be limiting for chums, but then that was no ordinary drought. Unfortunately, it's going to be quite a few years yet before that condition can be corrected at lower Baker dam.

Sincerely,

Salmo g.

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#242625 - 05/01/04 01:54 AM Re: Chum, endangered on the Skagit?
Titanium Cranium Offline
Returning Adult

Registered: 09/30/02
Posts: 412
Loc: Sequim
I remember that drought. I was fishing for the hatcher steelies and man there was NO water or fish for that matter. It lasted longer than just a week too. I was down at the end of Wylde Road and walked across a channel I usually cant even wade a quarter of the way through. There were biologists from the SCL up there looking the damage over. They were marking the Chinook redds with PAINT because they were dry as a bone. I can't tell you how many were destroyed but I can tell you that there were probably 10 to 12 areas that they marked in a quarter to a third of a mile of river. It was sad!
_________________________
Mark Strand
aka - TC

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#242626 - 05/01/04 02:04 AM Re: Chum, endangered on the Skagit?
Titanium Cranium Offline
Returning Adult

Registered: 09/30/02
Posts: 412
Loc: Sequim
I spoke with Phil Diaz at Northern Sales (Mount Vernon) about this. He's been discussing this with some of the WDFW guys. Apparently it's not a mis-print. There is going to be a meeting about this close to a month from now. Phil is trying to get the Tribe to attend - I'm not to sure but I think he said Brian Claduesby (sp). I'll try and get more info so that some of us can attend and hopefully find out first hand what's going on. Maybe voice an opinion or two also!
_________________________
Mark Strand
aka - TC

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#242627 - 05/01/04 02:32 AM Re: Chum, endangered on the Skagit?
Keta Offline
Repeat Spawner

Registered: 03/05/00
Posts: 1083
Is this the first time the Skagit has been closed for chum? I've been around here for a long time and I can't remember it ever being closed before.

Here is an old article about the Baker dry up.

NW Fishletter

.nSKAGIT Chums, Chinook Take Possible Hit

Concern over another chum stock made the news recently, after hydro operations on the Baker River, a tributary of the Skagit in northwest Washington, inadvertently dewatered several hundred chum and chinook redds near the town of Concrete. Flows in the river slowed to a trickle after Puget Sound Energy began refilling a reservoir over the Thanksgiving holiday when power demands were down. Redds near the confluence of the Baker and Skagit Rivers and some length downriver were possibly affected.

The state Department of Ecology told the Seattle Post-Intelligencer that mostly chums were affected, but a DOE spokesman said more than 220 ESA-listed chinook redds were de-watered as well. Biologists were not able to tell whether the eggs were destroyed. Environmentalists have threatened to sue over the issue, saying that PSE had "previously exhausted its reservoir to take advantage of high power rates in California."

PSE spokesman Roger Thompson said the notion that high market prices are the reason for the lack of water is not accurate. "The region has been faced with a serious lack of rain," said Thompson, who noted that streams in the Skagit Basin have been at half to one-third of their average flows. The Baker River only normally contributes about 15 percent of the flow to the Skagit below the town of Concrete, Thompson said.

Since PSE has only enough generating capacity for about 20 percent of its customers, he said it's not fair to characterize his company as profiting from the problems in California. "We have a commitment to keeping the lights on for our own customers first," he said.

Thompson said PSE and Seattle City Light have been pulsing water from their projects in an attempt to keep redds wet and confer on an almost daily basis with fish management agencies on their operation. He also noted that PSE will defer project maintenance at the Baker facility that would have cut flows even further until March.

WDFW biologist Pete Castle told NW Fishletter that one-quarter to one-half of the redds below Concrete could be lost, but he said about 85 percent of the salmon spawn above the town. He also noted that a "mostly tribal" fishery harvested about 15,000 chums bound for the Skagit last fall. "In hindsight," Castle said, "maybe they should not have fished." B.R.

3:02/01. Ferc to Consider Strteamlining Dam Licensing, Hydro Industry Pushing to Eliminate fish Protections: In accordance with directions from the 106th Congress, the Federal Energy Regulatory Commission (FERC) - the U.S. agency responsible for regulating all private hydropower dams - will hold a series of public meetings around the country, from 8-18 January, as it prepares a report to Congress outlining ways to reduce the cost and time of obtaining a hydropower dam license. The vast majority of the nation hydropower dams, many of them highly destructive of river resources, must be relicensed by FERC within the next two decades. The hydropower industry has long chaffed at current requirements that fish and wildlife needs require equal consideration with power production, and in fact helped draft bills in the 106th Congress (H.R. 2335 and S. 740) that would have streamlined the licensing process at the expense of fish and wildlife protections. The industry and some members of Congress have also sought to eliminate the National Marine Fisheries Service's (NMFS) and US Fish & Wildlife Service's (USFWS) independent review authority over dam relicensing when a dam affects species listed under the Endangered Species Act (ESA). One industry "streamlining" proposal has long been to carve out ESA exemptions for relicensing by stripping ESA trustee agencies of that ESA co-jurisdiction. FERC's report is expected to play a role in the incoming Bush Administration's efforts to craft a national energy policy and to influence Congress in that debate.

The only west coast FERC meetings will be: 17 January in Portland (Airport Holiday Inn, 8439 N.E. Columbia, Portland, OR (503)256- 5000) and; 18 January in Sacramento (Vagabond Executive Inn, 2030 Arden Way, Sacramento, CA (916)929-5600), both meetings commencing at 0900. FERC will also be accepting written comments until 1 February 2001.

For more information on this process see: http://www.ferc.fed.us/hydro/docs/section603.htm.

For more information on the FERC relicensing process generally and the need for fish and wildlife protections in that process contact:

Matt Sicchio, Coordinator, Hydropower Reform Coalition, American Rivers, msicchio@amrivers.org, (202)347-7550 x3021

Brett Swift, Associate Director of NW Hydropower Programs, bswift@amrivers.org

The morning TIDE the top ten links from Tidepool for February 05, 2001

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#242628 - 05/01/04 03:53 AM Re: Chum, endangered on the Skagit?
Plunker Offline
Spawner

Registered: 04/01/00
Posts: 511
Loc: Skagit Valley
Quote:
Originally posted by Smalma:

The forecast for Skagit chums for this year is 118,000 fish. As I recall the even year escapement goal is 117,000.
Dang Smalma! Now you went and gave it away.
Ruined the guessing game while it was just getting fun. ;\)

See guys, it wasn't a secret nor was it rocket science.


Titanium Cranium,
You are right about Brian Claduesby (sp.) representing the Swinomish at the meeting next month. Jeff Koenings and the news media will also be there but please allow the proper people to make the announcements through the proper channels at the proper time.


Oh Yeah! Salmo g. and Mike B. Sorry if you were offended by my inside joke in reference to an idiotic insult on another thread.
_________________________
Why are "wild fish" made of meat?

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#242629 - 05/01/04 04:20 AM Re: Chum, endangered on the Skagit?
Keta Offline
Repeat Spawner

Registered: 03/05/00
Posts: 1083
We know the escapement goal is being met by too small of a margin to allow retention. The question is why is it suddenly not meeting goals. What is causing the problem? This run has been considered healthy until now.

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