Enough is Enough,
So you don’t believe in Christ, But every one of you folks give gifts, and do the Holiday stuff :rolleyes: .
Christmas …Hum a hello …….CHRISTS MASS. A Christian celebration! So if you don’t believe, then don’t use it to show your love to Your families, and friends. find something else, and go to work. Why should your get a Pd vacation for celebrating some thing you don’t believe in? So for those of you that don’t believe go out side take your stupid lights off your houses, get the tree out of your house, go to work, and continue to bash GOD and JESUS CHRIST. And quit using them for your gain of receiving something for nothing.
Get a clue. Already.


Jim

I haven't seen anyone here, yet, "bash" Christ or God. I'm sure there are a few here that may not be Christian, they're probably Jewish, or Buddhist, or even Islamic maybe. I have, however, seen a few here that hypocritically claim to me more Christian than the rest of us.

By the way, what exactly do the lights, trees, and getting a day off have to do with celebrating the birth of Christ? Perhaps those self-appointed psuedo-Christian role models should put away their lights and ornaments, leave the tree to live, and simply keep the day Holy as it was meant to be.

Face it, Christmas and celebrating the birth of Christ has internationally morphed into two separate events for quite some time now. Although we keep trying to remind people that He is the reason for the season, as long as there's a dollar to be made commercial-Christmas will reign.

I don't do trees, lights, or decorations. I don't exchange gifts with some of my family members because they are as excited about the holiday as me. I still exchange gifts with the others, but would prefer not to.
If the holiday falls on a day I work, I'm at work. If the state wants to give me extra comp time for being there, fine with me.

talk to me when you stop perpetuating idiocy like the easter bunny and santa claus.

you DO tell your kid about santa..................................................................................................................................................don't you?

THEN we'll talk about hypocrisy.

I always wondered about that Easter bunny. I visualize a rabbit dying on the cross and then coming back three days later to hide some colored eggs for the kids.

" leave the tree to live"




My kids know exactly who santa and the easter bunny are - things made up by marketing groups to sell more product. Also pushed by anti-religious types to take the focus of the actual celebration.

so..............


.....no tree?



hypocrite.

best thread ever

Why are non-Christians so bent on TRYING to point out hypocrisy on Christians??? To be honest, it probably isn’t that hard of a task. Just a little harder than finding it in a non-Christian I'm sure... As you've noticed and try to point out any chance you get, Christian people are just that - people. The big difference is that Christians accept God's gift of forgiveness. The gift that came packaged in the person of Jesus Christ. The original Christmas gift...


PS - I don't have a Christmas tree this year. We have 3. We are starting a new family tradition this year with 3 small artificial trees - one for each of our boys. The 3 trees fit nicely into the "Three Trees" story that blends the importance of Christmas and Easter into one story that the kids love. I look forward to building other lasting Christmas, Easter, Thanksgiving traditions with my boys as they grow.

The haters like to push the Pagan ritual lie but it is no where near true. The Pagan ritual was held outdoors. The first christmas tree was of course and Olive tree in the manger at Christs birth visitiation by the wisemen. The first indoor tree is said to have been an idea of Martin Luther he saw the stars twinkling off of the branches of a fir tree on a Christmas walk. He liked it so much he cut one down and brought it home. The idea spead through England and Germany and morphed from there. Regardless of what practices and rituals people use for Christmas it has zero to do with the bible as I have said before this world is ruled by free will. Degrading the bible with the works of man is nothing more than the work of man.

....and dinosaur bones are really chicken bones.

we here you elvis.

loud and clear.....

We know H20 mamma done you wrong and you cannot forgive her for it. God done you wrong also and it's all his fault. Let me amend this to fit you "Degrading the bible with the works of a boy is nothing more than the work of a boy.

Some of my ancestors thought dinosaur tasted like chicken - so maybe that statement isn't that far off???

and the words of an idiot are, well, the words of an idiot.

brilliant stuff elvis

NEXT!

PP-

that might be funny if there weren't at least a million years separating dinosaurs and man.

excellent diversionary tactic though.

Is it your contention that they walked the earth at the same time? do tell....

Of course not. That would be a major problem for the theory of evoloution...

I'll know the answer for sure after I die, or after I get my time machine working - which ever comes first ...

Don't be so hard on yourself H20.

Exactly who here hasn't passed your litmus test for being Christian?

I really don't think it's MY "limtmus test" you should be concerned with....

It always amuses me when people try to make others look stupid and fail. He said his "ancestors"...I am assuming, from your disposition in previous posts, you are an atheist and believe in evolution? In that case, he would have had to have ancestors in some form alive at the time, since we all developed from some original spontaneously "created" life approximately 1 billion years ago. So, he was right, and your attempted mocking stopped at the attempt :rolleyes: .

Also, where did you get your "at least a million years" number? A shot in the dark? Because the generally accepted number is 65 million years, and the only people who discredit that cite the inconsistency of carbon dating.

I normally try to be a little more respectful, but I suppose I can't bring a knife to a gun fight

Alright you guys are a little freaky. Don't believe in it myself but the wife does that's fine. Living abroad in a religous place you can't get away from it, not that I want to. Have 2 little boys that will probably be regular church goers. They teach it in school over here. They will probably do what I did and make up there own mind when the time comes. Certainly won't force them into anything. My Christmas is about my family and ones who need to be remembered, traditions and sharing. Will take my boys to church because church over here is much more than your Sunday routine. Share a little love lads, mind yourselves and tie some leaders for me!!

Amen, regardless of your personal beliefs, you can recognize Christmas as a time for family, for giving, and for love. Lets not lose sight of that

Hahaha, yes, you have my "sanction" to perform whatever rituals you deem appropriate

oh goodie, someone WITH a brain that would like to engage in conversation...

...this might be good.

Your assumption about my religious philosophies is, as are most such assumptions, faulty. I'm not sure specifically what words I typed that led you to that inference as I have been diligent in keeping my religious philosophies to myself. I do however rail against religious intolerance of any kind because after all, we do live in a country where you are supposed to be free to worship/believe as you choose. My railings come from what I feel are the erosion of that freedom in this country....

First, on dinosaurs...

Yes, I am fully aware that 65 million years is the generally accepted time frame for the extinction of dinosaurs. Some frequent posters in here have espoused a strictly biblical interpretation of creationism. What's the difference between 65 million and one million to people who believe the earth and all of the life thereon is only 13, 000 years old?

On ancestry...you are missing the exposition of a thousand fanatical religious posts, my friend. The 'joke' I was attempting to belittle was made by someone who believes that modern man was created in its current form and has not evolved from one species to another. Since you seem to be as interested in the sciences as I am, you must know that the best scientific evidence suggests otherwise, regardless of the overall ability of Darwin's theories to hold water. My words were directed at someone who actually believes his ancestors, modern form, walked with the dinosaurs. If not that, then some other cockamamie explanation for the bones of dinosaurs.

I can see how in your eyes the joke might have failed, but rest assured, there are others here that know of which I speak.

on evolution....

I think Darwinian evolutionary theory is flawed....that said, evolution of species has been repeatedly observed in nature, super-bacteria being a prime example. Other examples include the disparate ways homo sapiens have evolved geographically and insects that develop resistance to pesticides. So.....Evolution as dogma or an umbrella philosophy? No I don't believe.....but, to say that life forms do not evolve would be erroneous in the least.

If I were to characterize my beliefs in some way it would be agnostic with a lean towards intelligent creation of some kind....I base that lean on observation of nature and evidence such as you pointed out....DNA, the prevalence of the golden ratio and fractal gemetry in the design of living things....observable order in what we usually see as chaos.

I freely admit, probably too often, that I am under-educated in the traditional sense. The one way that works to my advantage is that I am never chained to what I've learned or believe. This flexibility, imo, is what allows my philosphies to evolve (excuse the expression) and not stagnate in 'rightdom'.

lastly....

What is wrong with pointing out the hypocrisy of someone who shouts 'hypocrite'? Isn't that what the poster of this thread is doing if not directly, by inference?

....and you have to admit, admonishing non-christians for particpating in christian celebrations is awfully hypocritical coming from a group that stole half of its religious symbolism from the pagans of pre-christian europe. Sorry....that might be a bit of a stab in the dark for you there, it may be more like sixty five percent......

BTW....I didn't detect any disrespect in your post.

"It always amuses me when people try to make others look stupid and fail."

Sounds like you'll really like this site then....

"Unless you LIKE bigotry and hatred."

In the other post as well as this, I think he's already figured out who the bigots and hate speakers are....

Sounds like a sensible guy who doesn't take himself or internet forums too seriously....

Lucky for me I passed the important one years ago.

As a card carrying Agnostic I have to say some of the biggest hypocrits I've met have started off the conversation, "well, you know I'm a christian........" and then they go on to tell me about their illegitamate child they had with the waitress of the restaurant they own, or how there was a misunderstanding between him and his wife and the police and that is how he ended up in the police reports, or how the pastor of a large church talked about how he "jewed" the seller of prospective church property down in price..., or how a business owner is agressive in his tax planning (meaning he doesn't count cash sales towards his annual total sales revenue).

Yeah, then you look at the Catholics and the Protestants, who basically believe in the same bible, except for being able to wear French ticklers on their tallywhackers, so they go to war for a few hundred years in Ireland.

How 'bout them folks from Islam, the fastest growing religion in the world, who proclaim a fatwah (sp?) and decide to strap 20 pounds of C4 and nails to a vest and walk into a mall and vaporize 20 or so people in the name of their God.

Jimmy Swaggart is another good example of a good christian man. Yeah, preach about sin and such, then hire a hooker for a regular date so he can bend her over a couch.

Catholics again, let's see, hmmm...... How about we protect priests who are doing God's work, which means didling little boys, then move them around from dioscese to dioscese, not letting anybody know, so they can continue to do God's work to many little boys, and destroy their lives. Even better, how about just going bankrupt, then refuse to pay settlements to the people they have harmed. Heck, it was only a matter of institutional policy to protect the privacy of the priests involved.

Sorry if I seem a little jaded. I just do my best to be a good man, and to teach my boys to do the same. They go to Sunday school with their friends, and I will let them make their own choice, as my dad let me.

The people who have to wear their religion on their sleeve are usually making up for some past transgression, or are hiding something they are currently involved in.

If you want to be religious, great! Keep it to yourself.

Every religion has examples of this, not just individuals, but insitutional policies that go against the teachings of the Bible, Koran, or Torah.

I just try to build up Karma. Do something good for someone, and they, or someone else, will eventually return the favor. Just concentrate on being good humans. Shouldn't that be enough?

Give that man a cigar! Very well said.

YA, what dogfish said.

A bumper sticker I saw says it all..

Jesus, please save us from your followers.

Nothing wrong with God.. its every other morons desire for you to see him the exact same way he does that gets old.

It would seem to me, that most " Christians" are really just looking for some type of validation that they are " Indeed a higher form of individual "... and that God loves them best... what a bunch of B.S

"I just try to build up Karma... Shouldn't that be enough?"

Karma? Isn't that believing in some sort of higher power? Basically 'religion lite', like 'lite beer'?

Seriously though, you are all free to believe what you want. No one is trying to convince you otherwise - just have an open dialogue.

Personally, I beleive in the Jesus, as revealed to us in the Bible - the Book I beleive God inspired so that we could know Him.

You may feel differently - fine with me.

I'm no better than anyone else and I've never said or even thought as much.

I didn't say I was an atheist, just an agnostic.

I see many people who use religion as a way to divide people, not bring them together. That is what creates the doubt in my mind. We have fought many wars over the centuries based on religion. Most of the Gods in the main religions have the same origins, with a similar message delivered through a different prophet. So then we fight wars, saying God is on "our" side. Well, if it is the "same God", how does he choose?

I'm not trying to get into some deep conversation, just pondering need to make things difficult.

Assume a man, born in the wilderness, to parents who never knew of religion, and I live a good life, being good to those around me. 1000 miles away there people who have read this book and believe it, and they sin, but then ask for forgiveness. Will the man in the wilderness be doomed to go to hell while the person who has read the book, and not been able to follow it to the letter go to heaven?

Sounds kind of holier than thou to me.

------------------------------------------------------------

I'm glad to hear that despite your own personal reservations you're open minded enough to allow your children to go to Sunday School and are giving them an opportunity to come to their own conclusions.

Damn, Dogfish, looks like your wilderness dude is doomed.

Oh but I'm sure some Bible-quoter will come along and give us the, "well, it's different in this case" speech. Gotta love the way they memorize every verse and then twist the interpretation to fit their argument. Of course if you challenge them with another verse, well, you're just an ignorant heathen that hasn't learned the umpteen different ways to study the bible set down by some obscure theologian that the self-proclaiming masters of wisdom have witnessed as the only true interpretation.

Could you imagine standing on the river bank fishing and the guy next to you starts quoting verses from "Float Fishing for Steelhead" or "The Guide to Driftfishing," pointing out how you're doing it all wrong?

For those of us that have come to a conclusion realize there's only one desirable place to go after death -- it doesn't matter what road you take to get there. For those that haven't come to the same conclusion, they'll be just fine, too.

Goharley,

The point I was trying to make is that I believe the Bible (somewhere--I'll find it) makes a distinction between those who HAVE and those who HAVEN'T heard the Good News of Jesus and that you can't be held accountable if you have no knowledge of God or his Son like the person hypothetically described in the wilderness question.

BTW--Some of us believe the Holy Bible is the inspired by God, and some of us don't.

It's a free country and if you choose to only selectively believe the things in the Bible that concur with your own personal belief system--that's your right.


It's pretty telling that you compare quoting the Holy Bible with quoting "Float Fishing for Steelhead" or "The Guide to Driftfishing,"

While I think very highly of the authors who wrote the fishing books you mentioned--- I think more highly of the author of the Holy Bible.

I didn't really expect you to understand the analogy. But since you feel it is so telling, what exactly is it saying, then?

And are you mocking other's beliefs by wishing a "Happy Winter Solstice" rather than a Merry Christmas, or are you just not that strong in your convictions? I personally don't recognize winter solstice, other than it being a natural astrological occurance, nor have I ever given any indication here that I do. So why would you, being a proclaimed Christian, express wishes of a happy winter solstice to me? Should I in return wish you a happy Ramadan?

I don't remember mockery of one's faith as being a desirable trait in the Bible I read.

This thread is like porn, I just can't seem to look away. There's actually a debate about if people even ever heard of religion and quotes from "the book". Holy gob ****e

I love it!!!

No, but I like it!

Ok, I hadn't checked this thread in a day or so and its grown a lot! The most recent comments delve a little too much into the esoteric for me. When it comes to interpretation of religious philosophies, well, to each his own, and you really aren't going to change anyone's mind on an online discussion board.


h20,

Ok, you got me fair and square . If you say that people are free to celebrate Christmas, which has Christian origins, without relating it to its religious roots, can't christians use symbolism that previously had other religious connotations? Either they are both wrong or they are both fine.

I realize that that also points out the hypocricy of this threads origins, but I think that in challenging someone's hypocricy you can't fall victim of the same thing yourself, or you lose whatever argumentative high ground you had.

In any case, I'd just like to say you are clearly very intelligent, and I look forward to seeing your next comment!

Wow, nice hook-set Aix. I can hear the drag screaming! You caught your limit on this one. This arguments been around longer than any of us and will still be debated long after we're gone. We'll know for sure once we're dead...or will we?

Dogfish... You're alright! We've never met but I like your "pay it forward" karma way of being. You will have some fine sons.

Agnostic...for the record. And yes I'll have my pagan Christmas tree. I'll even sing some Christmas carols...maybe "Away in a Manger" for starters.

Camo

That very question has always bothered me, as a christian, but I have come to believe that God is just in this situation. Let me explain my thinking.

It is my understanding that children who have never had a chance to grow to know the lord go to heaven to be with him. I think that God would classify this man in the wilderness with these children. I think that he considers all of us children anyways, so it makes sense to me.

On top of this, I don't feel any of us have the right to claim anyone else is not going to heaven. While as a christian I feel that the only way to heaven is through Christ, I also think that none of us can say what is in another's heart. I think God knows far better than us how to decide who belongs where, so we should focus on good thoughts and encourage eachother to find him, rather than condemning anyone.

Dogfish, when you said "follow it to the letter", that saddened me. It saddened me because it seems that your encounters with christianity have made you think it was all about following this book, this set of rules, and it isn't. I guess it has become that way for a lot of people in a lot of churches, but I strongly believe that is not how God meant it to be. Jesus said that if you follow no other commandments, follow these: Love God, and love your fellow man. Christianity is a religion based entirely on love, and far too often in today's world it is seen, and perpetuated, as a religion of rules, condemnation and even bigotry and hate.

For me, what religion could make more sense than one that's main tenant is to love? Ok, barring a religion based on fishing or drinking beer

ahhh, i ain't so smart...i had to turn around three times this year to get my fishing license and earlier today I lost my keys....found them in the front pocket of the pants I was wearing.

"If you say that people are few to celebrate Christmas, which has Christian origins, without relating it to its religious roots, can't christians use symbolism that previously had other religious connotations? Either they are both wrong or they are both fine."

If I understand the question correctly I believe your last line is what I am arguing...the nature of the original post is hypocritical because, as I understood it, he feels borrowing religious symbolism is wrong.

Since I personally don't care where Christians get their religious symbology, I don't see how I'm trying to have it both ways. Borrow away, just don't cry foul when someone borrows from you basically...

Am I the only one that caught elvis trying to explain how the first christmas tree was given to the baby jesus by the magii? I'll bet one of them was wearing a fuzzy lil red hat...

R,O,F,L,M,A,O.

I Personally do not do any of the Bs that comes with the commercialized Christmas, or Easter. I don’t give gifts, and I don’t take them either. I don’t put up stupid little lights or trees either . I read the bible in a duck blind every year for Christmas with my boys or buy my self, and I go camping on Easter, with the bible. I don’t play the games sing the songs, and I do believe. I do however have the theology degree, and I am not perfect. Most every one makes mistakes on interpretation. Even I do and it’s always later when I notice it. That’s the great thing about God and his forgiveness.

Aix, you sound like fun

H20,

How do you get this?

"Am I the only one that caught elvis trying to explain how the first christmas tree was given to the baby jesus by the magii?"

From this?


"The first christmas tree was of course and Olive tree in the manger at Christs birth visitiation by the wisemen."

Many accounts of this by the way.

were the magii wearing fuzzy little red hats, too.....?

the christmas tree as it is known culturally in the united states evolved from....ahhh, forget it...why am I even bothering? Talking to you is like clapping with one hand...

Man, what an understatement.

Anthrax - Caught in a Mosh

H20,

"the christmas tree as it is known culturally in the united states evolved from"

It evolved from Martin luther not the Pagan evergreen ritual that you haters put forth. The US custom was to add glass ornaments nothoing more.

Look it can google. There are over 1000 sites that discuss the origins of Christmas. Anyone can google a site to make their claim and defend it on a variety of points. The Pagan solistce ritual with the evergreen tree is just one.

The bigger point is none of it means a fricken thing if you understand that this world is ruled by freewill. That freewill allows man to do whatever he chooses. It has zero effect on the claim that one is Christian, the bible or god period. It is simply mans choice. The fact that it may be a sin is irrrelevent as well as the messiah came to forgive us for sin. It has about as much effect on the validity of biblical events or god as a box of Cheerios.

Only 100 or so sites mention the legend. here is one.

http://www.christmascarnivals.com/tradition/


According to a legend, the Christmas tree is associated with the birth of Jesus Christ. It is believed that on the night of the birth of Christ, all kinds of living creatures came to Bethlehem with gifts. The olive tree came along with its fruit and the palm with its date but the fir had nothing to gift the newborn king. So an angel, taking pity on the fir, commanded a cluster of stars to shine on its beautiful boughs. Baby Jesus smiled on seeing the lighted tree, and blessed it. Consequently, the fir tree is always lighted with many decorations on it, to please little children during Christmas.

and by 'None christians' you mean 'non-christians'?

No read what I said. I said how Christmas is clebrated has zero to do with religion God or the bible. It's an choice of man. No different than if the Pope decided to make a porn video. Yet the haters try to make it out to be some hypocrisy that gives them ammunition that the bible ,religon and god are all lies and fairy tales. I think the point of his thread was why clebrate it in any fashion or even acknowledge the event in any shape or form if you do not believe?

Add it to the list that grows exponentially with each post.

Gotta love that filibuster about "free will" when realizing his narcissistic ass is being handed to him..... again.

Harley captain of the mental defectiuve leauge debate team. I've rubbed your nose in it so many times even the dog thinks you are incapable of learning.

Show me a command. I believe he just asked why. I said the typical MDL tactic to slam Christians means less than your understanding of the bible.

well on a lighter note, someone pray for my arm as i'm off to norway for some BIG cod.

" of you who claim to be Christians are in fact, making Christians look bad by the way you treat others. "

Yes this is true. Because the bible is very clear we should have nothing to do with non-believers or false believers so it's just another example of my sinful nature. You take yourself way too seriously and think way too high of yourself to think that you are fooling anyone but your buddies when you pick a fight , play dirty then cry foul when someone takes it further than you like.

they're seem to be a few 300kg critters on the northwest coast.

"you seriously need to learn some self control."

"You are just a waste of flesh"

Another AM 3 faces of eve moment.


" I don't "put on airs"
"There is nothing wrong with my self esteem "

"to fight the bigotry and hatred I find a few of you scattering all over this board"


Seems to me the sum is always greater than the parts. You see yourself as some defender of those unable to defend them selves. Some little kids momma.

Lets just clear it up once and for all. If all you post is true why do you even bother to post in my direction? I have made it more than clear that I do not wish to engage in dialog with you. Why bother if what you post above is true?

Nice thought, Aunty, but I think his narcissistic condition forces him to attempt control of every thread here. That and his delusions of grandeur and state of constant denial - claiming some victory in the face of obvious and repeated defeat - are sad, really.

"Uh... if you don't want to engage in dialog, don't."

I tried in vain only to be stalked on every single thread by you. I did not post a single response to you for almost 90 days . Go back and check at all your posts directed to me.


Harley,

All one needs to do is point to any of your posts Re: the last election for a catalog of your defeats on every single issue. You get beat up so bad on every issue it should almost be a crime to keep pounding on you.

wow... Sorry guys but Christians are supposed to evangelize... So nope, I won't keep it to myself. I love God with all my heart, and I love Christ and I know he took my sins away. But at the same time, I love each and every one of you just the same, Christians and non-Christians alike.

Non-Christians have taken nothing from us. There are two commandments: 1) Love God. 2) Love other people. When Christians stop doing those, it is THEIR fault and their fault alone. We are supposed to love, to set the example, and yet for some reason most of us gripe.

We are the ones who got it good remember? Who cares about the 72 years I have to live here, I have eternity in Heaven after this!

Curtis

Marsha so from you responding, your not a Christian correct, is that what your saying? and if so fine respond away. And if you are a christian and belieave in Christ then please , Feel free to Shut up. The thread wasn’t addressed to you.
And buy the way PEPTO will cure the diarrhea of the mouth you suffer from. All you do is belittle people so you need to look at your self there for bit.

I didn’t pick no fight, And I’m not a hypocrite. I’m just tired of the Christians being blamed for cramming our beliefs and PRACTICES down peoples throats. and then having the same people walking in and changing the things, we as Believers in Christ do to celebrate, to make it politically correct.

LOOK FIND SOMETHING ELSE DONT CHANGE MINE.
TK had It right with my state meant.
” I think the point of his thread was why celebrate it in any fashion or even acknowledge the event in any shape or form if you do not believe?”

You as usual Marsha You Are wrong.

QUOTE]Originally posted by AuntyM:
"to fight the bigotry and hatred I find a few of you scattering all over this board"[/QB][/QUOTE]

QUOTE]Originally posted by AuntyM:
You are just a waste of flesh. [/QB][/QUOTE]

The pot calling the kettle Black. And who Is a hypocrite.
Nice hatred you have there Marsha! :rolleyes:

I just figured out who Elvis is. Damn, I'm slow!

So, how's life on this side of the world?

I still love you Marsha.

Anyone else think this is a futile thread and we should have a group hug?

I appreciate and understand what you're saying, but remember that the likes of PETA and the anti-gun advocates feel exactly the same way about their beliefs, some can even quote scripture to back them up. I doubt you like them trying to tell you how to live your life or that you should give up hunting.

Sure, but that's free speech. People are free to talk about their beliefs. And regardless of how offensive the initial post of this thread was to anyone, he can't and isn't MAKING you do what he says. He's just expressing his opinion, albeit an extremely strong one.

I'm not concurring, just saying its not the kind of thing that can be stopped if you want a free thinking society.

Agree.

Aix the Christian, WTF

I always thought it was Aix the guy that likes to fight.

From your past post if you are a Christian then Pamela Anderson is flat chested.

Man does not define what is Christian. If wrong is wrong and we all are to judge then any one that went 1 mile over the speed limit today is a poorer citizen than those that did not or maybe fudged a little on thier taxes even walked by a person in need, used more than your fair share of the worlds resources or maybe you are 30 lbs overwieght and throw away food while millions are starving. But I know people here would not cop to any of those things.

------------------------------------------------------------

LT,

Pamela Anderson IS flat chested--those protuberances' are store-bought son.

"If he can't define it, then he damn sure can't be one either"

I am speaking about judgement not dictionary defininitons. Man cannot judge who is Christian and who is not . Acts outside of acceptance of Christ have nothing to do with who is or who is not. How people see one another has nothing to do with it. Telling someone they cannot be Christian because they do something is just a way of trying to get them to conform to a standard for that person or circumstance. It's like saying you are less female if you do not wear makeup a dress and and high heels everyday. Being Christian is one act and that is between god and the individual.

How is being a Christian claiming a higher moral standard? It's more about saying you recongnize you failings than claiming you have a higher standard if you really understand what it is all about vs going with stereotypes.

Who claimed to be a hire power?
You need to quit reading into things that aren’t there.
And as for my other post ,I said WE you blind bat. Its not being a hypocrite if you Admit you need it too, and address the issue. If I was being a hypocrite I would have said YOU all need this, and excluded My self, and not used the term WE.
We meaning ME, you, and every one on this board, and the world. WE ALL COULD USE A LOT MORE LOVE AND UNDERSTANDING.
CAN YOU HEAR ME KNOW. But it is hard to show that when you have people who just lurk to start problems, as you do.
Gees you would argue with a mouse chewing on an electric cord with no ends on it, and swear he was going to get electrocuted just to argue .
And you tell people they need to grow up.

Thank you Rory you beat me to it.

I dunno Rory, here she is 'pre-enhanced' before Baywatch:



If that's your idea of flat-chested well...

i thought for a minute this thread was going to come back around when salty posted that pic....sadly, it looks doomed.

Never understood the Pam thing just a Hep C loser being passed from has been wanna be rocker to has been rocker.

Thanks for the pre- pumped up Pam photo...

We didn't expect you to. It's a guy thing.

I thought a none christian was a catholic woman who wears a habit. You know like the flying none

[ Never understood the Pam thing We didn't expect you to. It's a guy thing.

Dans,

I have seen those guys we used to laugh at them hitting on our women.
I never understood the porn or the lusting after starlets thing. The real thing was so much more fun. But if I looked like like some of you guys I might

Then where does trying to convert everyone else come into play?

Cupo,

Thats in the bible.

"Then where does trying to convert everyone else come into play?"

That is just some people taking things a little too far. You get a few in every crowd...

The Bible teaches that the job of the Christian is the share the Gospel (the good news). We can't 'convert' someone - the Bible is clear in that only God can change a person's willing heart. Some prepare the ground, some plant the seed, God reaps the harvest....

Cupo,

Would you judge all fisherman based on the actions of a few or even a bunch. If you go down to the Snohomish River in Sept. about all you will find is snaggers and liners. Does that mean all fisherman are less than ethical? If they told you "it's ok everyone does it" would you research the facts and draw your own conclusions. Why is it different for fishing than religion? Why do few research the facts and draw their own conclusions vs. branding the whole lot? I was there once and I can tell you it's because it's easier than finding out for yourself.

It depends. Would the snaggers be coming to my house to get me to join them in their snagger ways? Would they tell me I'm going to hell because I don't snag?

Cupo,

I live behind a big gate now so I do not have to go through it. But before the Jehovahs and the Mormons would make the long trek up the drive. I would be polite and ask them to leave and if they persisted all bets were off on what I would say or do It amazes me but some churches actually teach it.

The cool thing about it all is that we can sin our arses off, then become a baptised Catholic on our deathbed, and make it into heaven!

I like all of the mass murderers who pray to Jesus, like the two women put to death in the past few years. Kinda funny how someone can create so much carnage, then convert, and they are saved. Doesn't anybody else find this a bit disturbing?

Heck, all that those Catholic priests had to do was repent, say a few "Hail Marys", move to a new town, and everything was better. Simple enough. Gotta love the simplicity of it all.

Well, you can hope you die a slow death so you can make a last minute choice if you want. Your call...

The preists - God makes it clear that he has a special place in Hell reserved for those who would harm children. Is that something they can be forgivin for? I'm glad I"m not the final judge of their hearts... They should also face the harshest criminal prosecution we can throw at them...

As for those 'death row' conversions of mass murderer types - again, only God can judge a man's (woman's) heart. His judgement is perfect, so if I run into one of them in Heaven, i may be surprised, but I wouldn't second guess His judgement...

Again, you seem to like to pick apart Christianity by the lowest common denominator and those odd situations and persons who makes the whole religion look bad. For any bad example you can provide, I could quickly come up with 10 or more great things Christianity and individual Christians have done for humanity - from running orphanages in 3rd world countries, running homeless shelters and food banks in America, voluteering their time as doctors and nurses to help AIDs, famine, and other victims around the world. We don't see that on the news every night, but it goes on day to day - quietly most of the time - because most are not out to glorify themselves, but do the work God has called them to....

" but it goes on day to day - quietly most of the time - because most are not out to glorify themselves"

Precisely the point some of us are trying to make. Why wear it on your sleeve and brag about it to the point that it makes people wonder who exactly you're trying to convince; you or them?

**The terms "you" and derivatives thereof are used in the generic sense and are not an accusation towards any one person specifically.

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That plan would be great if you knew the day and hour you were going to die.

Many agnostics also volunteer our time, helping out in the Red Cross, the United Way, and a numerous other beneficial organizations, just because we don't believe doesn't mean that we are not good people. I am a good person, sharing what I have with others freely, not because I have to, because I want to. I am just pointing out the irony of the situation.

I think agnostics are actually more open minded than those who participate in an organized religion. I can take the teachings of a number of different religions, take the lessons taught to heart, and be a good human. I mean, who can't dig that crazy blue Shiva in the Hindu religion? He is one figure that I would like to study more.

Who wrote the old testament, the new testament (heck, we should just change a few things here to liven it up a bit), the book of Mormon, the Torah, and the Koran?

Don't these books all teach similar beliefs to a certain extent with similar examples being given throughout each text? Why the need for all of these different religions? I'll tell you why. Because each religion , originally societies (think Sunni, Shiite, etc in the Muslim faith, or the different factions within the Jewish religion, or the different factions in Christianity), needed to prove how they were superior to others. It continues today. Religion is constantly used as a means to divide people.

Just one man's observations. I see it misused too often to be a believer myself. I am open to it, but I am also a logical thinker. "Just believe" doesn't work in math, or science. I won't even begin to go into evolution.

"Just believe" doesn't work in math, or science. I won't even begin to go into evolution."

Sure it does. I bet you believe in more scientific theory than you do scientific fact. In fact I bet you cannot even tell the difference most of the time because by the time it gets to you it has been translated by so many people theory becomes fact.

Think about the just believe part beyond the surface and relate it back to the complete work of the bible. What you end up with is an act of faith that there is more to life than what you will expierience in the body you occupy today.

"Just believe" doesn't work in math, or science."

Doesn't work with me either. I'm known by my peers at work and when I was in school \ university as a clear and logical thinker. My approach to Christianity and my peronsal faith is based on pure faith at the core, but also a life of examination, observation, research, and personal experience.

"Why the need for all of these different religions? "

Some philosophers have suggested that there is such a strong drive in most people toward identifying with a higher power - that it could be considered evidence that we were created this way. The Bible also has many references to people being created with a natural desire to seek out God. I'm sure you'll dismiss this notion - but you can't throw out the premise easily if you are really being open minded...

"I'll tell you why. Because each religion , originally societies (think Sunni, Shiite, etc in the Muslim faith, or the different factions within the Jewish religion, or the different factions in Christianity), needed to prove how they were superior to others."

Thanks for sharing your opinion on this, but I don't agree.

" It continues today. Religion is constantly used as a means to divide people."

Religion does divide. But it can also draw together. Just because there is divisiveness, it does not mean that was the original purpose - but simply an outcome or side effect (often because of the people who misuse or misunderstand it).

Switching this up a little, most Christians feel that Christianity is essentially an 'anti-religion'. Jesus came to shake up the established Jewish religion, with all of it's corruption, hierarchy, religion for the sake of religion, religion for the use of dividing, etc. Religion was (and still is for many) a way for men to 'prove their worthiness' to God... Jesus revealed that attitude as hogwash - as all men are sinners, and no matter how hard we work and try to be all 'religious', we are just putting up smoke and mirrors.

The Old Testament is used by Christians in part as a case study of how 'religion' is a failure when it comes to gaining a relationship with God. Christians feel that Jesus is the answer\solution to 'religion'.

One of my favorite parts of the Bible is the story of Stephan the Martyr in the beginning of the book of Luke. He provides and great summary to the 'religious leaders' of the time of how far off they are and how they are\were so blinded by 'religion' that they didn't even realize when they killed their own Messiah... He was immediately stoned to death for this 'outrage' as the (soon to be) apostle Paul (Saul) looked on in approval (he was a prominent Jewish leader who lead the bloody charge against early Christians before God changed his heart and he became one of the very people he was earlier persecuting)...

Of course from the outside looking in - we are all lumped together as the 'religious', but I'm hoping you are open minded enough to try to understand my perspective.

Religion is great! Please enjoy yours and keep it to yourself.

Thank you.

OK, I'll keep it to myself if you'll keep your opinion to yourself... :p

Not an opinion this time but a request.... thank you for your consideration.

YAWN!!!!

2 Timothy, chapter 2

23...Again I say, don't get involved in foolish, ignorant arguments that only start fights.

24 The Lord's servants must not quarrel but must be kind to everyone. They must be able to teach effectively and be patient with difficult people.

25 They should gently teach those who oppose the truth. Perhaps God will change those people's hearts, and they will believe the truth.

I'd think that christians that bring topics up like this would have something better to do with their time.

Most of them that I've seen haven't looked in the mirror and should be spending this time trying to improve themselves and taking their own advice.


It's amazing how many adults believe in fairy tales that have been rewritten who knows how many times.
Cracks me up when it's always an "interpretation" of the bible.

"No it doesn't say that, you aren't reading it right!!"

"rewritten who knows how many times"

Something that has been translated many times is quite different than something that has been "re-written many times".

There are many sources on the internet where you can compare, side by side, the different translations. With the discovery of the 'dead sea scrolls' and such, they have been able to compare various prior translations and have found them to be very reliable.

Thanks for a timely seasonal demonstration of Christian brotherly love.

"Something that has been translated many times is quite different than something that has been "re-written many times"."


And things that are translated are never the same. Some words don't exist, some have totally different meanings.

All this over a book of fairy tales...........................

That's why they call it 'Bible study'. It isn't just about picking up the good book and reading a few verses. You always check the context, find other supporting passages, compare the various translations (some focus on getting the exact wording, others strive for the exact meaning, etc), have Greek and Hebrew dictionaries available, concordances, etc.

You can call the Bible a fairy tale all you want, but every year they find archeological evidence of the historical accuracy surrounding many aspects of the Old Testament - cities scientist\archeologist didn't believe existed are found, etc. The New Testament is also regarded as being a valid historical document - people and places discussed actually did exist. So the disputes are really just surrounding the accounts of miracles and such - and as most things, just comes down to faith. But dismissing the entire Bible as a 'fairy tale' is pure ignorance.

Would that be the "discovery" of John's ossuary or the cheese sandwich with the likeness of Mary as examples?

Many others can easily argue that accepting the entire Bible as fact is naive and ignorant.

------------------------------------------------------------


Goharley,

What are you?

Care to share?


I've heard you mock Christians in one post and talk about the importance of remembering the 'reason for the season' in another.

I thought maybe you were a Catholic, then I thought maybe Unatarian, or do you have any denomintion you identify and agree with?

Do you have any firm beliefs with regard to God, Jesus and the Holy Bible?

I'm not trying to start a big debate or internet cage match, it's just that I'd be interested in learning how you arrive at some of the conclusions you do.

I'm a human, Krusty, that's really all that's important. Any other label attached simply divides.

"Many others can easily argue that accepting the entire Bible as fact is naive and ignorant."

They could offer their opinion - but it is not a good comparison.

That the Bible has historical accuracy among other things is not really debateable.

That parts of the Bible require the same leap of faith to beleive for children, adults, the uneducated, the scholars and scientists - is not by definition 'ignorance', but a combination of simple faith and personal experience.

Most Christians understand this requirement of faith to be a corner store of our relationship with God\Jesus. Would it be right if to understand the Bible and attain a solid 'faith' in God, you had to have years of formal eductation? The beauty of the Bible and understanding God\Jesus is that a small child can have that personal relationship with Him through the simplest faith, and a Dr with many Phd's can study every translation, research the historical contexts, examine the archeological evidence, and yet in the end they must take the same step of faith. Why? Because time and again in the Bible God\Jesus demonstrates that it is not by OUR efforts (studying\being smart\intelligent, 'being good', doing all the 'right things', being very 'religious', being a 'good person', etc), but the perfect work of Jesus that gives people the opportunity\gift of salvation.


Of course there are some very confused, ignorant, dillusional, mislead individuals and even entire congregations of "Christians" who cast a bad light on all Christians and religious people. But that is simply a matter of the diversity of mankind. Pick any large group of people and you can quickly find the deviants, ignorant, dillusional, etc...

GH:

My favorite author, Mark Twain once said something like, "I care not what race a man may be. Bieng human is condemnation enough."

Thanks for your opinion, Phreak, but that doesn't make it all fact. Some say the Bible is absolute fact, while others say it is absolute fiction. I say you're both wrong.

Homer's work has historical accuracy, but I don't believe everything from the Illiad or the Odyssey.

Because the Bible said Jesus used Tupperware® when He turned water to wine, and two-thousand years later archeologists find shards of Tupperware® at a site, does not alone give absolute credence to the story, given that Tupperware® was the predominantly used vessel for carrying both water and wine at that time.

What I do attribute the teachings and complexities of the Bible to is, as you put it, "a matter of the diversity of mankind."

Hello??? What are you talking about?

The guy said that the bible was a fairy tale. I said it is far from that for the reasons mentioned above. Nowhere in THIS thread did I make any claims about the Bible being 100 percent verifiable 'fact'.

If it could simply be 'proven', there would be no need for faith.

"That the Bible has historical accuracy among other things is not really debateable. "

+

That the bible has historical INaccuracy among other things is not really debatable

=

push

"I'm a human, Krusty, that's really all that's important. Any other label attached simply divides."

Yah! right just call him Mahatma Harley.

Dave -
A couple of years ago I saw Hal Holbrook do his Mark Twain routine on stage. That was really impressive. What great wit that man had.

H20: Your comment, whether correct or not, does not really address the issue of whether or not it makes sense to dismiss the entire Bible as a "fairy tale'..


"That the bible has historical INaccuracy among other things is not really debatable"

Humor me with some examples...

Phreak, I'm only playing the Devil's advocate here, but simply because some things existed in the time period the Bible was written doesn't make it not a fairy tale. It's your faith that makes it true to you, as is it other's faith that makes it fiction in their eyes.

And actually I think it may be easier for the others to prove much of the Bible is fiction due to the lack of physical evidence that it is not. Ergo, it's all about one's faith, however derived.

" but simply because some things existed in the time period the Bible was written doesn't make it not a fairy tale. "

Again back to my point that it is simply ignorance \ lack of understanding \ lack of research and study - whatever you want to call it if someone thinks the entire Bible is made up. The fact is MOST notible historians would agree that the Bible is a useful historical document(s). That the people, places, and certain events happened or existed as described in the Old and New testements is verifiable fact. That doesn't PROVE anything about the validity of the claims made about God or who Jesus claimed he was, or about any supernatural events - but that was not my point.


"And actually I think it may be easier for the others to prove much of the Bible is fiction due to the lack of physical evidence that it is not. "

You may think so, but it simply wouldn't be true. Simply having a lack of physical evidence is rarely enough to prove an alleged historical account is fiction. Many events in the Bible are beyond our comprehension, hard to beleive, humanly impossible, etc etc - but you can neither prove nor disprove them - hence you either have faith or you don't.

Agreed, however, faith is not intrinsic solely of Christians. Non-Christians also have faith, and it tells them the Bible is fiction.

I also agree that the Bible is an enormously valuable historical reference. And I also believe that novels by authors such as Tom Clancey may be valuable historical references 2000 years from now. Those novels depict world events that are fairly accurate or plausible, are loaded with references of actual people, and places. Yet, it's all complete fiction.

"Simply having a lack of physical evidence is rarely enough to prove an alleged historical account is fiction."

You may think so, but it simply wouldn't be true. In reality the lack is usually enough to prove fiction. It's what our court system is based on; physical evidence or credible eye-witness accounts. Without one of those it's just legend or fiction.

Which brings us right back to each person's faith; faith that it's fact, or faith that it's a work of fiction.

So the theory of evolution is fiction because you cannot prove 99.9% of it in lab tests.

No one has ever seen an atom just mapped signals that lead us to believe they are there so they must not be real either?

Seems like the line between fiction and non fiction and faith depend on your objective.

"Agreed, however, faith is not intrinsic solely of Christians."

Never said it was.... Some have faith in the ability of magnets to relieve pain, or the ability of a $9.99 dollar per minute phone call that a person can tell their future, or that billions of years ago life spontaneously formed, etc etc

" Non-Christians also have faith, and it tells them the Bible is fiction."

That isn't really 'faith' by definition. Just a lack of faith in the Bible.

"I also agree that the Bible is an enormously valuable historical reference."

That's big of you, but not really a question of your opinion - it just IS...

" And I also believe that novels by authors such as Tom Clancey may be valuable historical references 2000 years from now. Those novels depict world events that are fairly accurate or plausible, are loaded with references of actual people, and places. Yet, it's all complete fiction."

"All complete fiction" or just mostly complete fiction? 90%? 50% At what point does fiction become 'fairly tale'?
:rolleyes:
Does Clancy make any claims that it should be viewed as anything less than fiction? Does anyone else?


" In reality "
:rolleyes:

"the lack is usually enough to prove fiction."
Not in this context...

" It's what our court system is based on; physical evidence or credible eye-witness accounts. Without one of those it's just legend or fiction."

So how come Scott Peterson got the death sentence?

The lack of physical evidence simply proves there is a lack of physical evidence. It can neither prove or disprove the allegation.

There is other evidence that supports the Bible - internal evidence, external evidence, circumstantial evidence, etc. But again, by design, we won't get a 'ruling' by the courts as to our personal faith in the Bible...


Which brings us right back to each person's faith; faith that it's fact, or faith that it's a work of fiction.

"That isn't really 'faith' by definition. Just a lack of faith in the Bible."

Better let Webster know he screwed up, then. He seems to think it's "something that is believed especially with strong conviction." So if a non-Christian believes strongly that the Bible is fiction, then .....

"That's big of you..." Why thank you for your unsolicited opinion. I seem to be more welcoming of yours than you are of mine.

"At what point does fiction become 'fairly tale'?"

You know, semantics is a wonderful science. You can learn about all kinds of things, like "synonyms."

"So how come Scott Peterson got the death sentence?"

Well, gee, I dunno, maybe the two corpes that washed ashore where he placed his alibi. Or maybe the hair of his dead wife on a pair of pliers in his boat.

Which brings us right back to each person's faith; faith that it's fact, or faith that it's a work of fiction.

So the bottom line is that there are people out there that believe without doubt that the Bible is a work of fiction, a collection of stories, or parables. I'm not one of those, but I don't have a problem accepting the fact that those people exist. I respect their "faith" in that belief and don't challenge it. Somehow I get the sense that you can't accept that sort of person as anything short of ignorant because you feel they have a lack of understanding or haven't done legitimate research.

But everyone's got an opinion and your mileage may vary.

True. And funny thing TK should bring up evolution...........because the lack of a "missing link" isn't enough to prove it is fiction. However, I'm more of the opinion that 99.9% of the theory of evolution is factual, as opposed to tk's view that 99.9% is fiction.

But hey, we're all entitled to our opinions about it.........and nobody's going to know who's right until they're dead, and then they won't be coming back to tell.

And when the events in question involve supernatural powers and go against laws of physics?

So you're saying I won't be reincarnated as some hot co-ed's bicycle seat?

And the cool thing about the theory of evolution is that a theory is a part of science consisting of explanatory statements, accepted principles, and methods of analysis. So it can't be fiction by definition, becaue the public school I went to describes fiction as, "a literary work whose content is produced by the imagination and is not necessarily based on fact."

DanS,

"because the lack of a "missing link" isn't enough to prove it is fiction. However, I'm more of the opinion that 99.9% of the theory of evolution is factual, as opposed to tk's view that 99.9% is fiction. "

Never said that. I asked the question in the statement "So the theory of evolution is fiction because you cannot prove 99.9% of it in lab tests" Since you cannot recreate most of it has to be an act of fatih that the science is correct. so the missing link and Jesus seem to be in the same boat but Christians are the crazy one's.

I never said anyone was crazy. As long as we're human, we'll have questions that can't be answered.

People have been called crazy for many things.........thinking the world was/is round, thinking the Earth isn't the center of the universe, thinking the Red Sox could win a Series...............yet these things turned out to be true.

I hesitate to call anyone crazy regarding their opinions on the origins of Man. The belief we came from goo, or apes, or a Creator all take a fair amount of faith to believe.

GH: "Somehow I get the sense that you can't accept that sort of person as anything short of ignorant because you feel they have a lack of understanding or haven't done legitimate research."


All of this dancing around with semantics just for this?

First - I completely respect others who have differing opinions than mine. That respect goes up if they actually have good reasons and can offer support for those opinions and back them up when challenged.

I challenged a post that called out all Christians as 'ignorant' for their faith in God\Jesus and the Bible - and i challenged that with facts, logic, and my own strong thoughts\opinions.

I wasn't suggesting that it was ignorant to not be Christian or not believe in God. That would be a silly stand to make as there are very intelligent people on both sides of that discussion.