I wanna play to guys ) the meat continues to cook once removed fro mthe heat so don't kill the salmon just get it "almost there"

Stlhdr,


Find me a butcher that sits his meat out for display at room temp, and I'll find you a butcher who's updating his resume.

The rules for commercial fish/meat smoking operations are alot tighter then anything I've recommended.

If your smoker runs hotter then the Big Chief then I would guess thats whats keeping your meats safe.

Theres not one good reason why anybody needs to airdry at room temp other then being stubborn. Why even take the chance when just a single extra step keeps friends and family safe?

Dave,

Sounds like your dad was actually smoking to preserve fish, not just flavor it. Its always interesting to hear how they did things in the old days.



For everybody:

Why would people fret about "deadly spiders" which aren't actually deadly, microwave thier mail 'cause of anthrax, even though there not a congressman or TV news anchor, worry about terrorists in thier suburban neighborhood, and then turn around and not:

1. get their flu shots
2. wear their seatbelts
3. call 911 when their chest pain starts
4. worry about food safety

???????

Almost 99% of the people who post here are great folks, and adults. If you choose to gamble with a case of the runs thats your biz. But if you get a young child or an 80 y/o great granma sick with food poisoning you could easily buy them a ticket for a 2 day stay at the local community hospital. I'm just asking that you read the link I provided (its a very short article), and take it into consideration if you give away smoked fish to friends/family.

vince

Ever seen the meat and fish market from third world countries? You would think the customers would falll over and croak just by looking at the flies-covered meat. But no, people distribute fresh meat and fish in the open warm environment for ever.
It is not the environment that gets people sick, it is the bacteria from the processing line that gets people sick.

Vhawk...do you actually go outside? Isn't it all too dangerous out there?
When you catch a fish do you race in to ensure it is processed and properly stored within minutes? Or does it sit in the fish box?
A display case, even refrigerated, that is repeatedly opened and closed all day long definitely doesn't meet your standards of safe.
What do you say about fish markets? Fish out in the open on ice all day long? Fish that was in a boat somewhere prior to that for who knows how long? A disaster of epic
proportions waiting to happen.

Via your link:

"Rinse and air dry all fish before smoking. This not only gives smoke a chance to deposit evenly but also helps to prevent surface spoilage during smoking. Smoke will not deposit easily on a wet surface.
If proper drying conditions are not available (cool, dry, air), try placing the fish in the smokehouse with low heat (80 to 90oF), no smoke, and doors open. With a wood heat source, use a low, clean flame."

So, is your fridge the only one on the planet that produces dry air?

Vhawk, your warnings are heeded. I had the fish in brine in fridge overnight. Rinsed off and pat dried and let set for an hour and a half. (didn't look quite ready at 1 hr). I don't know how hot my Big Chief gets but it was on my patio and 85degrees out and it would have easily made "jerky" in 6 hours of those 1-3/4 x 1-3/4 fillets. Total time in smoker 4 hrs 15 min. Gonna have to try the basting thing next time though. Like the rum and brown sugar advice. Thanks again to all for your input. It has been very informative.

the "basting advice" I am no expert , but what it really does is prevent the ( pelicule) spelling ? that white crap from forming! when you let the salmon air dry with a rum/sugar coating ( or probably any coating really) the salmon tends to smike and finish with a nice brown glossy finish. I have never been afraid of fish I caight, I am more worried about fish that has been handled by the big C boats in reality, more disease comes from red meat animals raised in feed lots and no one has been able to make the question ( why did that happen stick)

Ironhead,

Do you know where the next great epidemic is expected to start? An open air meat market in Asia. Its where SARS most liked started, its where most flu pandemics start, its a great place to catch a hemorrhagic fever if your in Africa. People drop dead all the time in those third world countries. It just doesn't make the news until the numbers get into the hundreds of thousands.

Did you forget about the kids that died eating hamburger meat at Jack in the Box? Well that meat was cooked. Just not long enough or at a high enough heat. Maybe those kids were just whimpy, right ironhead? Maybe the 16 people who died from eating tainted cheese from the Jalisco factory should have just toughed it up.

Nevermind. I'll see you or your ilk sooner or later. About the time when the dehydration and abdominal cramps become overwhelming. I always do.


Stelhead,

You can let your fish sit out in a burlap sack all day long. It won't bother me a bit. Germs, hah! What was I thinking.
Stupid me, bleeding and icing my fish down right away. Like it really mattered when it came down to how it tasted. I should have saved my money and just thrown my fish whole up on the bank, in the sun, like all the other good fishermen.


Vince

VHawk,
I hope you don't take my comments as a debate on bacteria and diseases because you probably know more about that than me.
I am just stating facts from experience.
I believe that most natural/normal air born bacteria are not a big threat to human health.
I can't prove this but you have to admit that people from third world countries do not have the essentials to keep meat/fish fresh compared to us. If your theory is correct, then how come Chinese, India, and most countries from the Eastern hemisphere have a huge population? We would think these people had became extinct due to their eating habits. Here are a few examples of bacteria tanted products: Kim Chee, Fermented fish, fermented squid, fermented crab, fermented shrimp, fish sauce, shrimp paste, 1000 Year Old Eggs, sun dried fish, sun dried squid, sun dried shrimp, and much much more.

Yes you are right about the Jack in the box, and such. And those illustrations were the cause of PRODUCTION GOODs.

Something to think about.

Anyways, how do you guys dillute the sugar in alcohol? Do you boil high concentration of sugar water to get the sugar melted into a sirup and then mix alcohol with this sirup?

The number one place to contract any disease or bacteria is in a hospital.

Anyways, experiment a little and try hickory. You won't be sorry. I thought it wouldn't be a good combo but it's really very good compared to alder or apple. Or maybe it's good because it's a change of pace.

Re. the earlier post about freezing before smoking - It's not to kill bacteria, but rather the parasites that may be present in fish that spend part of their life cycle in fresh water.

This shouldn't a problem at the temperatures we're talking about here, but I wouldn't be comfortable serving Scots or Lox style product if it hadn't been frozen first.

Any salmon sushi you've eaten was frozen first (or at least should have been).

You guys are killing me. Stlhd and ironhead, where do you get your information? Graffiti is an ok place to find humor, but not such a great place to learn science. I'm done trying to explain the difference between anecdotal evidence and research based evidence. What ever you've "seen" is as good a "fact" as any peer reviewed science. "Facts" from experience are not facts. They are observations. You've observed something and you come up with an explanation for the thing you observed. Very good, that covers the first part of the scientific method. That'll make you current to about the time of the ancient Greeks.
There are more people in 3rd world countries because they bred like rabbits, and live about as long. In some places they average age is in the early 20's, and 45 is old.
If you really believe people in third world countries are as healthy as people in the US, hey fine with me. Why don't you just take your kids to Guatamala to get their appendix taken out. You'll save thousands in surgery bills. And when grandpa needs open heart surgery, why not just have him recuperate in your kitchen. I hear its the cleanest place in the house. Wash his wounds with your kitchen washcloth while your at it.
I never realized that working in the hospital my chances of getting a "disease or bacteria" was higher then it is if I was shooting up IV drugs in a crack house. Really Stlhd where do you find your "facts".
Ignorance kills, it also annoys me. Don't be ignorant.

"Did you forget about the kids that died eating hamburger meat at Jack in the Box? Well that meat was cooked. Just not long enough or at a high enough heat."

To compare processed hamburger to a fillet of salmon, is more like comparing apples to oranges. It would be more suitable to compare a food born illness outbreak that is linked to someone eating a medium rare steak, which is not all that common.

The problem with hamburger is that all the bacteria and organisms that are present on the outside of the meat prior to processing, gets mixed throughout the meat during processing, thus making it vital to cook throughly. While there is a slight risk to all meats and fish, the risk is greatly reduced when eating, whole cuts of meat or fish.

But all methods sound good to me, and I have picked up a few techniques I'm going to try this year. I myself let mine air dry for about an hour. No one has ever been sick. Granted I am no expert in this field, but part of my job is to conduct sanitation inspections of Messing facilities.

"I never realized that working in the hospital my chances of getting a "disease or bacteria" was higher then it is if I was shooting up IV drugs in a crack house. Really Stlhd where do you find your "facts".
Ignorance kills, it also annoys me. Don't be ignorant"

Must be hard to look in the mirror every morning.
Now you are comparing the dangers of working to shooting up drugs? Is the next comparison one of air drying fish is the same as shooting heroin? You are slipping into the abyss on this thread.
I get my "facts" from personal experience VHAWK. The only infection I've ever had, Strep, was contracted during a simple hernia surgery. It nearly killed me. Also, there is plenty in writing about drug resistant staph in hospitals. Third world countries? I don't live in one yet so what goes on with food handling in third world countries has nothing to do with what goes on in my smoker.
I'm wondering where you get your "facts". You started your bashing with a couple guys came in with food poisoning so everybody run for your lives. Chicken little to say the least. I've already told you that my method has not sickened anyone in my life time and it's a method that everyone I knew growing up used. I've never known anyone who's been sickened by smoked salmon. And I'm willing to bet I've known a heck of a lot more fisherman in my lifetime here in this state than you. You've had your say, know nothing of what you are talking about, so get off your high horse.

"so I admit I'm an old fart, but my dad smoked salmon in an outdoor smokehouse with the fire in a barrel outside, with the smoke piped into the bottom of the smokehouse. The lowest rack was about five feet above the ground. I highly doubt that fish ever got above 100 degrees. He smoked it for seven days and used only fresh cut alder that smoldered and smoked but made very little heat."

Dave,

I do it the same way. I make Jerky the same way as well. My temp guage stays at 100 degrees max. True smoked salmon is not cooked it is dried . Cooking salmon at high temps while smoking is called Kipper. Drying slamon is how they make lox as well. I use a mix of apple alder and hickory chips. Straight alder makes it bitter IMHO. The brine and smoke combined make it hard for bacteria to grow.

This debate is reminiscent of an experience I had last summer. I was at a loud rock concert, and I put in earplugs. The folks (strangers, mind you) around me all pitched me crap for being a wuss. I'm 33 and I hope to be listening to rock music 50 years from now. VHawk, keep on being safe and don't worry about what other people think. And thanks for the link--it's a good one.

On my list of things to do some day is to build an indirect heat smoker. It is true smoking.

Pellicule, schmellicule, I let mine soak in brine refridgerated overnight( up to eight hours), and upon removal, pat dry with paper towels, and into the little chief... three pans of combo of alder and apple chips for minimum of five hours... never allow just heat to cook the fish, as I am a firm beliver of smoking the fish as opposed to cooking.. By the way, I have given my product to relatives ranging from age 4 to age 82, and have never had anyone get sick. I believe that allowing the fish to sit exposed to the elements, (indoors or outdoors), waiting for the pellicule to form exposes the product to airborne bacteria that could be responsible for any adverse side effects. Not to brag, but many friends and relatives have said that my smoked salmon and steelhead is the best they have ever had. Yeah, I guess I am bragging... but damn, my smoked fish is good.
The best I ever did was some Alaska caught sockeye that was previousy frozen, although second best was Newport, Oregon king I was fortunate to catch on a charter when only three keepers were hauled in that day...Bottom line.. the less exposure to the unheated, unsmokey air, the better...IMHOP

Stlhd you should donate your body to science. You've only had one infection in your whole life ?

The only infection I've ever had, Strep, was contracted during a simple hernia surgery.

And I only compared IV drug use with being in a hospital after you wrote

The number one place to contract any disease or bacteria is in a hospital.

I figured you meant that no other place was more risky then a hospital for contracting disease, including a heroin den. So what did you mean?

I get my facts from the CDC, NIH, Medline, Emed, FDA, and the Dept of Agriculture. As well as college microbiology, pathophysiology, and comparative zoology. I was shooting for a double major in biology and nursing while at Boise State.

I get my "facts" from personal experience VHAWK.

If your life experience with bacteria and viruses is limited to one infection in your whole life, your either a freak of nature, or your definition of an infection is different then the rest of humanity.


Below is a link to a table (for specifically fish), showing the temps that food pathogens grow and produce toxins, also the temps/time requirements to keep food safe. But I'm sure it doesn't compare to Stlhd's personal experiences.
FDA: FISH AND FISHERIES PRODUCTS HAZARDS AND CONTROLS GUIDANCE

Anytime you want to chat about Staph a. let me know. I fell in love with a gal who was doing post graduate research on Strep a. She was studying how it hides intracellularly when dairy cows are given antibiotics for bovine mastitis. She followed the staph by inserting a gene that coded for a protein the would flouresce under a special light. I met her in a bar, and we chatted about that and fishing for 5 hours. Afterwards I fell asleep in my truck I was so drunk. But thats a different story, for another thread.


The Mother of all Fish Safety Web Pages click here

How about living in a leper colony? You are a nurse in a hospital (I'm assuming). You see maybe one tenth of one percent of the population. Of that two people were sickened by smoked fish?
Once again you have posted a link that refutes everything you have stated. Show me on this link where air drying fish for two hours will make everyone sick? Now I am not talking about leaving it to bake in the sun. And I rarely smoke fish during the summer. But, from your link, it looks to me that you would have to let fish bake in the sun, or I guess leave it in a heroin den, in order to cause concern.

"In summary, the table indicates that:

If the product is held at internal temperatures above 70°F (21°C) during processing, exposure time should ordinarily be limited to two hours (three hours if Staphylococcus aureus is the only pathogen of concern);

If the product is held at internal temperatures above 50°F (10°C), but not above 70°F (21°C), exposure time should ordinarily be limited to six hours (twelve hours if Staphylococcus aureus is the only pathogen of concern);

If the product is held at internal temperatures both above and below 70°F (21.1°C), exposure times above 50°F (10°C) should ordinarily be limited to 4 hours, as long as no more than 2 of those hours are above 70°F (21.1°C)."