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#401537 - 01/03/08 12:36 PM Re: Tribe banking on grant money to save chinook ***** [Re: The Moderator]
bushbear Offline
River Nutrients

Registered: 08/26/02
Posts: 4709
Loc: Sequim
Don might appreciate the $$, but Gary and CCA could put it to better use.

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#401551 - 01/03/08 01:18 PM Re: Tribe banking on grant money to save chinook [Re: bushbear]
N W Panhandler Offline
Three Time Spawner

Registered: 01/05/07
Posts: 1560
Loc: Bremerton, Wa.


Parker, I feel a bit let down, according to that strange post it sounded like you had given up. I know Aunty M will keep working on you, and be careful, I hear she does in fact have a baseball bat.
_________________________
A little common sense is good, more is better.
Kitsap Chapter CCA


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#688161 - 06/11/11 06:14 PM Re: Tribe banking on grant money to save chinook [Re: ]
eyeFISH Offline
Ornamental Rice Bowl

Registered: 11/24/03
Posts: 12767
Been over 3 years since we visited this issue.

This document spells out the 3 year plan for 2009, 2010, and 2011.

http://www.psp.wa.gov/downloads/SALMON_RECOVERY/2009_workplan_updates/2009_stillaguamish_update.pdf

The cost of implementation is a staggering 8.2 million per year... 4.6 million for capital expenditures and 3.6 million for operations.

Of that, 358K per year is budgeted for hatchery operations.

Would love to see the stats on the most recent returns of Stilly chinook. It would be interesting to see the marginal recovery cost for each incremental chinook that comes back to the system.

I imagine it rivals the cost of producing CR spring chinook.
_________________________
"Let every angler who loves to fish think what it would mean to him to find the fish were gone." (Zane Grey)

"If you don't kill them, they will spawn." (Carcassman)


The Keen Eye MD
Long Live the Kings!

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#688235 - 06/12/11 01:15 AM Re: Tribe banking on grant money to save chinook [Re: ]
Carcassman Offline
River Nutrients

Registered: 11/21/07
Posts: 7436
Loc: Olema,California,Planet Earth
One of the reasons for the even-odd cycle in Chinook escapements is that the surveyor's ability to see Chinook redds is compromised by the presence of pinks. Time and again surveyors have told me that the presence of all the pinks, and this was back in the 80s, makes Chinook harder to see, much less count.

As the South Prairie pinks have exploded, it has become more and more fifficult to even see the Chinook and redds.

Not saying that the number may not show an impact to fishing mortality; release or unreported.

Also, there was a strong even-odd cycle on PS coho that seemed to be tied to bycatch in the Fraser pink fisheries. They ran later in the fall, when some of the coho were coming in. Even if they were noit taken in US waters they would be picked up in the Canadian fisheries.

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#984921 - 02/04/18 12:48 PM Re: Tribe banking on grant money to save chinook r [Re: eyeFISH]
eyeFISH Offline
Ornamental Rice Bowl

Registered: 11/24/03
Posts: 12767
Originally Posted By: eyeFISH
Steve

Thanks for your feedback. If the unsupplemented run's production is hovering at less than replacement level due to the crappy habitat, the priority in restoration efforts should rest on habitat improvement. If what you say is true, it sounds to me that managers have instead opted yet again for a techno-fix during the past 25 years that the tribe's "life support" hatchery program has been in place. That is more than 4 complete chinook life cycles in the intensive care unit!

To expand on that medical analogy, yes, we can keep a patient on artificial life support for 25 years as well.... a ventilator to do the breathing, a pacemaker to keep the heart pumping, pressor drugs to maintain blood pressure, and a surgical feeding tube directly into the stomach to keep the patient nourished while his mouth is stuffed with techno-tubes. But if the underlying systemic cause for the patient's cardiopulmonary failure is not addressed, it's completely futile. Better to just pull the plug than to keep investing $10,000 a day on an effort that will NEVER make the patient better! If we did that for 25 years, that's 10,000 x 365 x 25 = $ 91.25 million dollars!

As far as the genetic and reproductive fitness issues are concerned, they are easily discounted when managers observe a short-term stabilization or rebound in abundance. They see fish coming back, so it's all good. As I think about it, the only way the hatchery makes up for the natural production deficit (recruit ratio less than 1) is by churning out more spawners to make up the difference. But as you'll see, that can be an unsustainable model.

Let me illustrate with an imaginary depleted run on the River Zip which has been trashed by logging. Everyone knows the habitat is crap, but let's pretend that no efforts are made to improve habitat and that habitat-limited production in the river is fixed, neither increasing nor decreasing.

In round numbers, let's say the depleted run has a 500 fish baseline and the $hitty habitat limits productivity to a recruit ratio of 0.8 (4 returning adults for every 5 spawners). That means if we do nothing, the return on those 500 spawners would be 400 recruits. Now let's put a broodstock program in place that takes 50 pairs of fish to artifically boost production. Let's say this hatchery is so good that it's recruit ratio is 2 (two and a half times better than natural).... meaning for every spawner they mine from the wild run, they get two back!

In the first year of operation, the hatchery would take 100 fish and 400 would spawn naturally. The hatchery would bring back 200 fish and natural production would bring back 320 for a total of 520 fish... a marginal gain of 20 fish or 4%. At that fixed rate of "recovery" it would take 18 years to double the run to 1000 fish.

But wait.... you can't assume the overall production will remain constant because as more and more hatchery fish are allowed to spawn naturally, the productivity from natural spawning starts to fall off due to diminished reproductive fitness. In the steelhead studies at Hood River, reproductive fitness is reduced by 15% in the first generation alone! In other words hatchery fish that are one generation removed from their wild brethren are only 85% as productive. So in our little fairy tail, where wild production in the $hitty habitat is only 0.8, the expected "natural" production from the returning hatchery fish would be only 0.68 (0.8 x 0.85).

Now let's go back and apply that misfit decrement in production to the hatchery fish in our hypothetical example. 200 of the 520 recruits arising from the original brood year were hatchery-produced, 320 were naturally produced. If all of them were allowed to spawn, they would bring back (200 x 0.68) plus (320 x 0.8) = 512 fish. In other words, in the second generation the marginal gain in productivity will be only 12 fish or 2.4% more than the baseline population of 500.

But since our hatchery is going to operate for more than just one generation, we need to cull out another 50 pair of wild fish for broodstock. So in that next generation, total production would be as follows:

(and yes Curt and Steve, I realize that I'm simplifying here because the fish actually come back in staggered age classes which makes the real analysis much more complicated, but regardless this exercise is still instructive)

the 100 wild broodstock fish brought into the hatchery would bring back 200, the 200 hatchery fish spawning on the gravel would bring back 136, and
the remaining 220 wild natural spawners would bring back 176.

Total production from that second generation would be 512 fish... in other words the fish just replace themselves.

Run the same analysis in the third generation and you get 200 fish from hatchery production, 136 fish from hatchery spawners, and 170 fish from wild spawners.... for a total of 506 fish.... a net loss of 6 fish or 1.2%.

Run the same analysis for the fourth generation and you get 200 fish from hatchery production, 136 fish from hatchery spawners, and 165 fish from wild spawners... for a total of 501 fish, a net loss of 5 fish or 1.0%.

Run the same analysis in the fifth generation and you get 200 fish from hatchery production, 136 from hatchery spawners, and 161 fish from wild spawners.... for a total of 497 fish, a net loss of 4 fish or 0.8%.

In that fifth generation all the gains from hatchery supplementation have been erased, and even with the wild broodstock hatchery program in place, the entire population is technically no longer self-sustaining. However as you can see in this example, the marginal loss with each generation does diminish, and so by the 10th generation, the losses are down to just one fish per generation at a population of about 485 fish. From there, it's just a downhill slide, albeit at glacial speed, toward extinction where every last fish counts, even the ones that are "inconsequentially" harvested in our non-selective fisheries.

I guess that's better than a baseline 20% loss per generation. If we do nothing in this example the population shrinks down to about 50-60 fish after the 10th generation. Clearly, both strategies lead to extinction... one is just so much slower and more painful to watch. The only way out of that death spiral is an increase in natural productivity. As has been said repeatedly by Lichatowich and others, you just can't have "salmon without rivers". In the end game, it's all about productive habitat... DUH!.... now there's a revelation!

As Steve said, he'd rather see the "conservation" hatchery in place while we grapple with the habitat issues.... last ditch artificial life support for our dying patient until we are willing to address what's really killing him. But let's be honest about it... the hatchery isn't "conserving" jack$hit. It's only delaying the inevitable until genuine conservation.... namely habitat restoration in this example.... can bring some semblance of natural productivity back to the system.


Read it... then read it again... and again... and again... and again.

The Stilly kings CAN'T be recovered without wholesale habitat restoration. No amount of hatchery technofixing will pull these fish out of the hole. Not 10 years ago when I first penned this... not now as McIsaac proposes with his pie in the sky conservation hatchery plan (does he really need to re-invent a failing wheel?)... not EVER!

The policy guys simply ignore the reality that this is 100% a habitat problem.

Salmon without rivers, indeed.
_________________________
"Let every angler who loves to fish think what it would mean to him to find the fish were gone." (Zane Grey)

"If you don't kill them, they will spawn." (Carcassman)


The Keen Eye MD
Long Live the Kings!

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#984923 - 02/04/18 01:23 PM Re: Tribe banking on grant money to save chinook r [Re: Phoenix77]
Keta Offline
Repeat Spawner

Registered: 03/05/00
Posts: 1092
More people more growth....Yay!!! I’m sure salmon will fit right in.


https://snohomishcountywa.gov/3642/Economic-Development-Initiative

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#984924 - 02/04/18 01:35 PM Re: Tribe banking on grant money to save chinook r [Re: eyeFISH]
JustBecause Offline
Juvenile at Sea

Registered: 07/18/08
Posts: 237
I don't think that they "ignore" it, in fact the plan acknowledges it by saying that additional fishery restrictions will not recover some of the populations.

However, that does not change the fact that the populations are in terrible shape and folks are proposing actions that decide what level of them can still be killed! See the rub? the answer should be NONE! But, since that is not realistic, given it would likely shut down untold numbers of fisheries that would otherwise be open, the alternative is not "Kill as many as you want", but rather, kill very few.

I know folks have a hard time with this concept. You can't just point over there at habitat and say "Hey, the problem is over there, not here!" while continuing to kill the fish at any rate that is not shown to be reasonably low enough to not drive the population past any reasonable threshold for recovery.

Back to something that Todd said a decade ago in this thread (my summary) - Either let these stocks continue to limit our fisheries or get to fixin' the habitat. Recently I heard the head of the Governor's Salmon Recovery Board talk about the cost of recovery. He stated that, to date, the actions called for in the Regional Recovery plans have only been funded by about 15%....

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#984925 - 02/04/18 02:02 PM Re: Tribe banking on grant money to save chinook r [Re: Phoenix77]
eyeFISH Offline
Ornamental Rice Bowl

Registered: 11/24/03
Posts: 12767
The power of production (or lack thereof) rests on the habitat!

Good habitat drives the recruit ratios to something bigger than one... that's what makes the population grow. Quit raping what's left and let's get to work on improving the stuff that's been trashed.

Habitat restoration is the ONLY thing that will allow this run to recover. That's where the effort and $$$ needs to be invested.

No rivers... no salmon.
_________________________
"Let every angler who loves to fish think what it would mean to him to find the fish were gone." (Zane Grey)

"If you don't kill them, they will spawn." (Carcassman)


The Keen Eye MD
Long Live the Kings!

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#984926 - 02/04/18 02:06 PM Re: Tribe banking on grant money to save chinook r [Re: eyeFISH]
JustBecause Offline
Juvenile at Sea

Registered: 07/18/08
Posts: 237
We agree! I think everyone does.

The question is what do we do while we wait for that to happen, assuming we get on with it?

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#984940 - 02/04/18 07:42 PM Re: Tribe banking on grant money to save chinook r [Re: Phoenix77]
eyeFISH Offline
Ornamental Rice Bowl

Registered: 11/24/03
Posts: 12767
We've been sitting on the proverbial pot for 35 years now... literally waiting for $h!t to happen.

Doing the same old thing, business as usual, fluffing up the pillows and dancing around the hard issues that MUST be addressed if we're truly serious about ESA recovery. Perhaps we as a society simply aren't.

Mebbe the shock and awe of NO FISHING is what society really needs as a final wake up call to get serious about habitat conservation and restoration.
_________________________
"Let every angler who loves to fish think what it would mean to him to find the fish were gone." (Zane Grey)

"If you don't kill them, they will spawn." (Carcassman)


The Keen Eye MD
Long Live the Kings!

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#984941 - 02/04/18 07:47 PM Re: Tribe banking on grant money to save chinook r [Re: Todd]
eyeFISH Offline
Ornamental Rice Bowl

Registered: 11/24/03
Posts: 12767
Originally Posted By: Todd
So long as the population is growing and considers Wal-Marts and strip malls, apartment complexes, and giant subdivisions a good idea, then it's all just delaying the inevitable extinction of most species that rely on rivers...especially Chinook and steelhead.

Fish on...

Todd


The enemy is US!
_________________________
"Let every angler who loves to fish think what it would mean to him to find the fish were gone." (Zane Grey)

"If you don't kill them, they will spawn." (Carcassman)


The Keen Eye MD
Long Live the Kings!

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#984949 - 02/04/18 11:31 PM Re: Tribe banking on grant money to save chinook r [Re: Phoenix77]
eyeFISH Offline
Ornamental Rice Bowl

Registered: 11/24/03
Posts: 12767
This was the 3-yr plan (conceived and drawn up almost a decade ago) that was meant to jump start the restoration of some of the most critical habitat bottlenecks identified in the Stilly basin.

http://www.psp.wa.gov/downloads/SALMON_RECOVERY/2009_workplan_updates/2009_stillaguamish_update.pdf

Anyone know if this plan was ever fully funded or implemented. Or did it just die on the vine?
_________________________
"Let every angler who loves to fish think what it would mean to him to find the fish were gone." (Zane Grey)

"If you don't kill them, they will spawn." (Carcassman)


The Keen Eye MD
Long Live the Kings!

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#984952 - 02/05/18 06:37 AM Re: Tribe banking on grant money to save chinook r [Re: eyeFISH]
JustBecause Offline
Juvenile at Sea

Registered: 07/18/08
Posts: 237
Originally Posted By: eyeFISH
This was the 3-yr plan (conceived and drawn up almost a decade ago) that was meant to jump start the restoration of some of the most critical habitat bottlenecks identified in the Stilly basin.

http://www.psp.wa.gov/downloads/SALMON_RECOVERY/2009_workplan_updates/2009_stillaguamish_update.pdf

Anyone know if this plan was ever fully funded or implemented. Or did it just die on the vine?


Here's a link to all of the completed and on-going habitat projects in WA. Looks like you can just zoom into any of the areas and check it out.

http://hws.ekosystem.us/projectmap?mlayer=projects

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#984953 - 02/05/18 07:00 AM Re: Tribe banking on grant money to save chinook r [Re: Phoenix77]
RUNnGUN Offline
Repeat Spawner

Registered: 12/06/07
Posts: 1388
Whoa! Blast from the past! Way to go eyeFISH! Talk about pulling a rabbit out of your arse. Is Phoenix77 still around.
_________________________
"Life moves pretty fast. If you don't stop and look around once in a while, you could miss it.” – Ferris Bueller.
Don't let the old man in!

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#984955 - 02/05/18 07:50 AM Re: Tribe banking on grant money to save chinook r [Re: Phoenix77]
FleaFlickr02 Offline
River Nutrients

Registered: 10/28/09
Posts: 3316
The problem with putting all the eggs in the habitat basket is that unless harvest is curtailed so that more fish can spawn in restored habitat, you will end up with rivers without salmon. The other problem, assuming recovery is somehow achieved to any extent, is that under the current management paradigm, any additional fish will go straight to commercial markets, leaving our lovely, restored habitat devoid of spawners.

So yes, fix the habitat, but don't forget to fix harvest, too. Nothing will recover salmon unless we stop killing 90% of them every year. Fish are habitat, too!

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#984960 - 02/05/18 09:46 AM Re: Tribe banking on grant money to save chinook r [Re: Phoenix77]
Carcassman Offline
River Nutrients

Registered: 11/21/07
Posts: 7436
Loc: Olema,California,Planet Earth
The "Habitat is the only problem" mantra is that if we improve the freshwater productivity we don't need to change fishing. If the current R/S is (say) 1.1 and the habitat fix takes it to 1.2 you can double your catch for the same escapement.

Right now, as bad as the habitat is supposed to be, most of the salmon runs are having R/S's greater than 1. We just catch them, excess seals eat them, etc.

We are conducting a different sort of experiment with salmon as opposed to other ESA species. We are trying to harvest our way to recovery. It is more complex than that, but politically there is no will to shut down all the impacting fisheries.

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#984961 - 02/05/18 09:50 AM Re: Tribe banking on grant money to save chinook r [Re: Phoenix77]
Salmo g. Offline
River Nutrients

Registered: 03/08/99
Posts: 13525
eyeFISH,

The Stilly plan, like all salmon restoration plans, has not been fully funded. Like the public, the Legislature has a short attention span. Both have grown salmon funding weary, and the money spigot has had its flow cut back. I don't think the body politic gets it, that you can't just pour money on habitat and get the desired results - more salmon - in 5 years. I doubt society has the fortitude for a 50 -100 year plan to recover salmon habitat. I don't think people get how expensive recovery is. IMO, a $200,000 habitat improvement project is lucky if it results in $10 worth of new salmon per year in the near term, i.e., say 20 years.

I think the most effective, and least popular based on what I see happening, is riparian land acquisition, removal of rip rap dikes and levees, and revegetation, as part of longer term restoration actions.

Hill slopes in the Stilly basin are inherently unstable. Restoring to relative stability probably requires letting all timber on steep slopes grow unmolested for decades. And that won't stop land slides. It would just reduce the frequency of major landslides to something that allows natural Chinook production to become sustainable.

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#984970 - 02/05/18 12:15 PM Re: Tribe banking on grant money to save chinook r [Re: Phoenix77]
Carcassman Offline
River Nutrients

Registered: 11/21/07
Posts: 7436
Loc: Olema,California,Planet Earth
Just look at Chinook biology. If something good happens in freshwater this year it is 4 years before the results come back. If the ocean lets it.

We should learn (now there's an oxymoron) from other species like Trumpeter Swan, Whooping Crane, California Condor. The swan and crane had protection in the early 1900s and it wasn't until about a century later that they really seemed to take off. Slow increases, with no kill.

Salmon recovery isn't going to happen because we won't control population. Like Salmo said, if we acquire land and protect it (tie it up) we may have a chance. Just takes money and willpower.

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#984971 - 02/05/18 12:18 PM Re: Tribe banking on grant money to save chinook r [Re: Carcassman]
eyeFISH Offline
Ornamental Rice Bowl

Registered: 11/24/03
Posts: 12767
Originally Posted By: Carcassman
The "Habitat is the only problem" mantra is that if we improve the freshwater productivity we don't need to change fishing. If the current R/S is (say) 1.1 and the habitat fix takes it to 1.2 you can double your catch for the same escapement.

Right now, as bad as the habitat is supposed to be, most of the salmon runs are having R/S's greater than 1. We just catch them, excess seals eat them, etc.

We are conducting a different sort of experiment with salmon as opposed to other ESA species. We are trying to harvest our way to recovery. It is more complex than that, but politically there is no will to shut down all the impacting fisheries.


I believe I heard folks testifying to recruitment rates of somewhere around the 0.6 range... HORRIBLE! 25% worse than the scenario I painted 10 years ago with 0.8 recruitment.

10 spawn... 6 come back. Never gonna make up that deficit on volume alone.... no matter how many we get back to the gravel.
_________________________
"Let every angler who loves to fish think what it would mean to him to find the fish were gone." (Zane Grey)

"If you don't kill them, they will spawn." (Carcassman)


The Keen Eye MD
Long Live the Kings!

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#984972 - 02/05/18 12:21 PM Re: Tribe banking on grant money to save chinook r [Re: JustBecause]
eyeFISH Offline
Ornamental Rice Bowl

Registered: 11/24/03
Posts: 12767
Originally Posted By: JustBecause


Here's a link to all of the completed and on-going habitat projects in WA. Looks like you can just zoom into any of the areas and check it out.

http://hws.ekosystem.us/projectmap?mlayer=projects


Looks like the only active projects right now are ongoing installations of engineered log jams in a handful of select locations. The Stilly tribe appears to be the main entity leading the charge.
_________________________
"Let every angler who loves to fish think what it would mean to him to find the fish were gone." (Zane Grey)

"If you don't kill them, they will spawn." (Carcassman)


The Keen Eye MD
Long Live the Kings!

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