Harvest is the problem because I cannot think of 1 stream flowing into Puget Sound that does not have a gillnet fishery on it. Not one!

And yes my Guide Service practices Catch and Release on rivers where wild fish are required by law to be released. Most of my clients keep their hatchery fish and release the wild one unharmed. Can the gillnetters anywhere in this state say the same.........I didn't think so!

You heard it ladies and gentlemen.

Everybody stay home this weekend.

We wouldn't want you all destroying our "credibility"

Todd,

Did you make it to Vancouver for the public input?

Just curious.

Jerry

No gillnet fishery on the snohomish system why has that system seen a drop in numbers?

This thread, another outstanding example of the fractious, ineffective recreational fishing constituency.

Because fishery issues are often complex, everyone gets to pick the special case of their choice and show how the limiting factor mentioned by another member in reference to another watershed or set of watershed and "prove" how right they are and how wrong the other person is. With that kind of sideways, or dare I say half-assed reasoning, is it any wonder we consistently fail to assemble effective coalitions?

BTW, even the Chehalis basin is habitat limited. Sure, most of its chinook are harvested outside WA state, but those fish are part of the basin's productivity. It's just that the benefits of that production accrue elsewhere instead of here. The basin, as far as WDFW and QIN know or assert, still makes, or almost makes the chinook escapement goal most of the time. Just because there are not a lot of fish available for sport fishing does not mean a basin is producing at less than its potential, it usually means that somebody else is catching those fish.

Many readers here continue to make the false assumption that if only more fish were allowed to escape to spawn, then overall production of that run would increase. For those few populations that are actually being over-harvested, this is true. But for the majority of populations it would just mean more fish would spawn while production remained approximately the same. Until everyone gets on the same page about how salmonid populations work, these discussions will continue to be little more than a waste of time and bandwidth.

I said above that even the Chehalis basin, where we appear by all indicators to have serious harvest problems, is habitat limited. I meant that in an historical context. How can a basin that formerly produced far more than a million coho and a quarter million chinook not be habitat limited today? You could stop all fish harvests for the next 50 years, and production wouldn't recover to previously witnessed levels. The reason is less habitat, and habitat with less productivity and capacity than before. But for a few select cases, habitat is always gonna' be your limiting factor (habitat includes the ocean in case Kevin Lund is reading). Over harvest is an important issue, but it's nothing like Jerry and others assert. Man, this is like spitting into the wind.

BTW BD, don't ya' dare stay home on Saturday. See red.

Sg

I look forward to seeing you Aunty.

I'm hard to miss....6'3", 300lbs and wearing a red Three Rivers Hat.

I will try not to embarass myself or discredit anyone's life long work.

BTW.....How come lawyers, in general, are always stirring the pot.

Oh ya... They're lawyers

Are you serious Jo Jo! Are you trying to tell me that the Tulalips don't gillnet the Snohomish system or out in front in the bay?

Salmo G one question. BPA spends millions of energy users $$$ on habitat recovery above and below Bonneville. How come then those upriver fish are not increasing in population if habitat is the limiting factor.

That may be true for the river itself, however the commercial and tribal effort in Marine area 8-2, including the mouth of the Snohomish, is massive.

Trust me....When the nets are soaking, it is very difficult to navigate from Everett to anywhere due to the incredible # of nets.

No gillnet fishery for wild Steelhead.... and as far as I know it very little for coho. Though they do harvest chums in the saltwater.

Chum fishery yes. But as far as wild steelhead they are not being harvested by tribal gillnets yet continue to dwindle.

They intercept anything that swims in October.

Yes...targeting Chums but catching much more.

Does it hurt yet?

JoJo can you spell BYCATCH!

Hohbomb73.........No

It is obvious that there are many factures that affect our fishing resources throughout Washington and Oregon.

I think the main point is that commercial netting is not a selective in any sense of the word while sportsman are required to practice a fairly efficent method of selective fishing.

The problem, in my opinion, is that the allocations do not reflect the differences in harvest method and release mortality.

Can sportsfishers do more to help the resource....YES

Does gillnetting need to be eliminated? NO

It does however need to be properly managed.

Management can come in the form of allocation levels, timing of the fishery and location of the fishery.

Bycatch wild steelhead in October? that is stretching it a bit but if it helps you sleep at night than what the heck. It can't be that we have shabby logging practices and diked all the lower rivers, urban sprawl, polution the list goes on and on.

Thats true but don't ya think that overharvesting everywhere may have a greater inpact on the fish? If you had to flip a coin which one would you get rid of to improve ALL fisheries? Overharvest or Habitat Recovery?

By the way which one cost all of us more $$$$$?

I wasn't trying so single you out. ...It's just that it's getting painful to read.

I would love to be at the weekend hearing; however, I will be "arguing" with OR, WA, NPS, BLM, USFS and others at the 1st annual NW Rock Climbing Summit in Beaverton all day tomorrow and saturday.

Good luck Team Red!

Jerry

Habitat restoration is spendy and will take time. But it is the better of the 2 options because it can and will help save salmon.

If I can ask you a question what would you do to stop tribal fishing?

Thats a good question JoJo and truthfully I don't have an answer. Perhaps an act of Congress or Executive order. The big problem I have with it is simply that most tribal fishing is done with the Gillnet. I really don't want to see tribal fishing stopped, just the way they do it. Whats wrong with using fish Wheels and Traps like they do for subsistence fishing on some off the rivers in Alaska I have seen?

Here's what really cracks me up, and yes I know about this first hand. Where I live tribal members will actually take a leave of absence from their "dealer" job at the casino so they can fish (gillnet) every species of Salmon in the Duwamish and Lake Washington and then when its all over complain about the lack of money they made!

I guess they haven't heard the phrase......."don't quit your day job"

Jerry,

I think I am going to call a truce. We'll have to agree to disagree.

Good Luck

Joe

One thing the CCA has tried to stress to its members is to not debate to much on these boards....You are right when it comes to the $25 dollar experts. I see some here and on other boards doing more harm than good.

Just because you paid your $25.00 does not make you a spokesperson for the CCA. It makes you a contributing member....I appreciate that. I would encourage all CCA members to go to there local chapter and submit there ideas. Your ideas may or not be what the CCA is wanting to do at this time, so please understand that there are steps to take. We cant achieve it all at once. Small steps is the key!

There are so many different issue's involved with the low numbers of salmonoids.... one is definetly overharvest. Habitat is a big one, ocean conditions, and on and on. But why improve the habitat so that there can be more harvest?

The Columbia is managed for maximum sustainable harvest....BAD! What we need is for the entire NW to be managed for maximum sustainable return.

To achieve that, you must first limit harvest. That would benefit the habitat by adding nutrients back in to the system. It's not a fix all idea, but it is a start. You can have the best habitat in the world, but with out fish to inhabit it, what good does it do?

We need to take small steps, limiting harvest is one step.