I didnt say anything about business owners, I said the GOP. Most of them were lobbyists and party shills & corporate interest groups taking advantage of the abundance of illegals in AZ.

Why didn't the republicans vote it down then? And why did both democrats and republicans voteagainst the bill (minority, the bill won by a margin of over 3 to 1). I think your grasping for straws here Irie.

What about a guy who is temporarily down on his luck. Lost his job and before he found a new one got hurt with no benefit coverage. You don't think we should as a society help him?

Why should we help him? If he had a job that provided insurance then he should have signed up for Cobra when he was let go. If he got hurt bad enough that it was life changing there are already several options availaible for them..

Dave
Hypothetically, Sheryl gets knocked up in highschool and chooses to drink and party for the next few years.. before she knows it she's 25 with 4 kids from different daddies, Why should society help her? Why should my taxpayer money go to support them?

I have known people who when they lost their job had to make the choice between Cobra and eating, it's not a difficult choice when money is that tight.

It's not her your helping, it's the kids and that is what seperates us from the 3rd world countries. There is plenty of money to give everyone free health care, the Government just chooses to spend it on other BS stuff.

Since your taxpayer money has to go somewhere why not make health care the first place and then let the rest fall where it may. I'd love to see us run out of money for artillery on our current war adventure.

Not me, I don't particularly enjoy Chinese food or Vodka.
By helping her and her kids you generally just end up paying for them in Prision and them continuing the cycle. Sorry I have no urge to help those people. By paying for her it continues to enable to cycle. So no F..em

Bring the Troops home,muscle wetbacks back over the border and cease giving handouts.

Are you implying that leaving Iraq would lead to China or Russia taking over the US?

Also, if you don't help those kids, don't you think the odds of them ending up in "prision" would be higher? And, you'd still be paying for them then. How does not paying for them "stop the cycle"?

No but disarming the military as some are propenents of doing would. Iraq is a bad situation, but the sublect has already been beat to death. Lets see Cheryl has one kid and gets govement support so things are tight but she still survives. Cheryl has one kid and gets nothing, back to the rents to try and figure out life rather than keep poppin out our next generatrion of prisoners and welfare mothers.

I'm only making a guess here, but is Cheryl your mom's name? I'm also guessing you're a big "God bless America" kinda guy, and America is a "Christian nation" and "Muslims just want to kill all us Christians."

Dude, you're a walking contradiction.

I'd also suggest you adopt a policy of at least 6 hours from bottle to keyboard.

Please elaborate on how I am a walking contradiction? My moms name is Shaquanda BTW . Actually If you did any research the muslims would have killed Cheryl during her first pregnancy in hardline countries. What if I am a muslim? I couldn't pick you out in a room of 1, and I bet the same goes for me. So once again, how am I a walking contradiction?

Without social programs you'd have complete anarchy. Starvation, homelessness, disease, crime and violence. You, as a taxpayer, are going to pay either way you look at it so you might as well choose the option that keeps the peace.

Link to the story...www.katu.com/news/3634401.html

NOT an internet rumor,nor unsubstanciated.

I read the article, couldn't believe the part were The Dept of Forestry says they don't have "that many" illegals working. It is a simple procedure to match ss# to names & dob via internet IRS I-9 procedures when hiring, even if documents are forged, it is easy to determine an illegal. So when the new pres takes over - will they prosecute those at The Dept of Forestry? The canidates said they intend to prosecute employers for hiring illegals - "to the fullest extent".

It is a HUGE safety issue when people are unable to communicate on jobsites. Such a safety issue that if you hire people who do not speak english you should hire an interpreter.

Wriveroutlaw:
Companies with under 20 employees are not required by law to offer COBRA. If a person gets sick while covered there is no preexisting exclusion, but if a policy lapses, even though they got sick while covered - preexisting will not be covered. Is that any insurance to you? You think people should be given their premiums in wages -younger people will not buy. The thing is the gov will cover them, or they will get care in ER, it is a law, ER cannot refuse treatment. You don't like this law but imagine if the ER could chose who to treat, do you really want such a system? If you do then make sure you carry a current updated card on your body at all times. Your comment about Muslims is ignorant. Stlhead said it perfectly but I would like to add to keeping the peace - chose the option that is fiscally responsible for the gov, which is not making billionaries out of the ins CEOs at the expense of our gov. There is no free lunch - (I think it was you that said that before) - so work the formula -it is more than a cliche. The only way to solve our healthcare problem is to get everyone covered, only then we will have any reasonable control over the ins comps. Iraq is not just a mere "bad situation that has been beaten to death", aka your tired of hearing about it? No, "not beaten to death" even if you don't want to hear about it anymore.

I just love that all the big Bush supporters keep waving the flag,saying we need to support the troops (which I do) and label anyone who opposes the war as being unpatriotic. It is amazing to see the results of all the government brainwashing and how easy it is to accomplish. As a direct result of this "war",we see the price of gas just keep rising. It is just a conincidence that big business is showing record profits as our soldiers die on a daily basis and we as a nation go further in debt.
Can anyone tell me why,other than to "stop the rise of Communism" we spent so much and lost so many in Vietnam? Does anyone really believe we would have been any worse off as a country if we had never paid the price of Vietnam? This "war" will go down as our biggest waste of funds and man power to date. But like anything else, we will not learn anything from it and repeat it at some later date.
I honestly believe that as soon as we pull out of Iraq there will be a massive civil war and we will see another similar group in power like the one that was ousted.Religious wars NEVER end.

I love this type of convers. Lets look at it logically. How do you intend to pay for(everyone covered.)? God knows we cant raise taxes on the "middle class" which I happen to consider myself even if the gov does not. Dont ask the 60mil that pay nothing and leach off "social programs". They could not possibly go get a job because then they would have no time to do the other things that make life livable for them, drink, smoke of the glass, pop out more kids, collect welfare....ets. Let raise taxes on the "rich". They pay a higher % now by 10%, just up it another 5% and all is well and good. Social sec gets in more trouble.....dont try to fix it, just raise the payrole tax on the "rich" again 3% more or adjusting the cap should do it. Need more money for medicare.......get those "rich" again, 2% this time. finacial uncertainty, you guessed it...."rich" again. Morgage crisis, rich. Need more taxes for any and everything else, rich, because noone knows who the hell that is anyway until all of the sudden you are in the government crosshairs.
When this country was founded, it was biult on a society of hard workers "working" to get ahead. The CEOs did not get where they are at by sitting on there a$$es. Doctors and lawyers and everyone else that went ot 10+ years of college and grad school got there by hard work. We accumulate hundreds of thousands of dollars in loans that will take 20 year to pay off. We start office that we will finally own when we are in our 60's. These are now the "rich" that pay for your social programs, not the corp titons, and pay for everything else as well. Small business owners who worked from the ground up and could end up being you in hte end should you decide to go that route. Money is tight and all we ever hear is how we should pay more. When did this society start punishing hard work and rewarding laziness. That was not what we were founded on and it is sad that it where we seem to be headed.
This is the truth....I am so tired of being told that I dont pay enough in taxes at 35% of my income and just raise them to pay for these "plans" politicians come up with to get votes. If you want coverage, then get a job and pay for it. I have a small business and there are riders that cover after people leave and there plan does not just "end" as was stated before. Every plan Bluewater has the option of extension if the person wants it beyond what is already covered but yes it should be them that pays for it. ER which I have worked in around the country are slammed with people who should not be in the country and that is why there are lines and it costs so much. Dont start on the Muslim crap because my wife is muslim and yes, some are allowed to marry though we would be killed in some other countries if we did. The vast majority are hard working great people but there are a small % that need a cruise missile dropped on their heads(the ones that dance in the street when a school bus of jewish shildren are blown up my a "martyr"). Our health care problem will be fixed when people stop stating everyone has a inherrant right to everything and start saying you need to work to take care of yourself. Save money for a rainy day and dont go buy that extra six pack for the weekend if you cant afford it. If it is out of your control then it should be covered as emergency care (as is done now) but not a legal citizen, tough. Handouts are what has made this country weak. Socialist societies which there are many have terrible economies because there is no drive to get ahead. No incentive to work. Everyone should pay their share and quit asking for everyone else to do it for them. Sorry for the rant but just think about it.

Blue Water pro

http://islamiclawetc.wordpress.com/2007/01/29/capital-punishment-for-a-rape-victim/

Hmm, I don't hate muslims by a long shot. I dated a muslim girl for a while and got some insight into to culture. If you want to put your head in the sand its fine.

Sthlhead,

"Starvation, homelessness, disease, crime and violence"

Have you not read the papers or walked the streets of any metropolitan city.. These problems already exist.

Wriveroutlaw,
I'm sorry if it seemed I said you hated Muslims, I was not saying that, didn't even think that. Typing on the internet can get things confused. I meant that I considered the comment ignorant because I see those militant anti-woman actions to be due to the culture of a country - really to me it is nothing more than that. American Muslims would never consider such a thing. I understand now what you were saying. Can you understand what I am saying?


Docspud,
I should sit down & figure out the #s involved but I havent' because I see billionarie ins CEOs & know they are making money by handing off the sick to our gov. Cut out those billionaries & give the $ to the gov to fund what they already pay for -health care for the sick. If I wanted to make $ in ins, couldn't think of a better way to make it then the current system. Ins people well enough to work but not with a term policy but rather a policy that ends when they are too sick to work, then the big bills will be paid by the gov or absorbed by the hospitals who just passes the cost on to the rest of us. No free lunch, it is dispersed & carried by all, the bill will always be there. It doesn't take a rocket scientist to figure out we are being ripped off. Even if people bought individually, if they couldn't work they probably couldn't pay premiums & if they could, the ins would find a way to exclude.

I have a friend who is a surgeon that I knew in college. He worked day & night & couldn't afford to eat & still works harder & longer than most. He is smart enough to have been anything. He will not be rich until he is 60? He is rich now in his 40s. Everyone has an idea of rich but I don't know anyone that wouldn't consider him rich. He deserves what he earns, I never thought we should go after the docs that afterall is the ins comps other agenda.

Many families are homeless due to med bills, many people have died due to lack of ins. Why? Not for the benefit of our gov economy but rather to make a CEO another billion, or to give a bonus to those who finds a way to hand off the expensive to our gov. They are in business to make $ not care for sick people - you gotta get that!

We're all typing in english on this thread, but I would not say that it is unifying us in any way based on the opinions posted.

Unfortunately, we do have all those things!