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#432511 - 05/04/08 03:24 PM Re: Poor returns call for an answer [Re: ]
stlhdr1 Offline
BUCK NASTY!!

Registered: 01/26/00
Posts: 6424
Loc: Vancouver, WA
[quote=AuntyM]
 Quote:

You aren't going to find a magic cure.


Bingo........................ That's my point... Everyone is suggesting this and that, I'm saying the fact is there is very few if any natives left most of which are reaching low's that are likely not going to be recovered.....

Pull the hatchery fish, stop fishing........ What's the end result, to me it will be the same as what's happened every where else they've pulled hatchery fish and stopped fishing...... NOTHING!!

Keith

_________________________
It's time to put the red rubber nose away, clown seasons over.


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#432513 - 05/04/08 03:27 PM Re: Poor returns call for an answer [Re: ]
Todd Offline
Dick Nipples

Registered: 03/08/99
Posts: 28170
Loc: Seattle, Washington USA
Steelheadman,

It actually took me about four seconds...

http://www.google.com/search?source=ig&hl=en&rlz=1G1GGLQ_ENUS258&q=hatchery+wild+competition+food

That's ten pages of results all saying exactly the same thing...

Fish on...

Todd
_________________________


Team Flying Super Ditch Pickle


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#432514 - 05/04/08 03:29 PM Re: Poor returns call for an answer [Re: ]
stlhdr1 Offline
BUCK NASTY!!

Registered: 01/26/00
Posts: 6424
Loc: Vancouver, WA
 Originally Posted By: AuntyM
 Quote:
You can obviously use a computer to write here...use it to do five minutes worth of reasearch.


OK.

This is for Keith and his interest in the lower Columbia, like Abernathy Creek or Germany Creek.

http://www.nwcouncil.org/fw/program/2008amend/spe/history.pdf

Salmon Life Histories, Habitats, and Food Webs in the
Columbia River Estuary
Daniel J. Bottom
NOAA Fisheries, NW Fisheries Science Center
2032 SE Marine Science Drive, Newport, OR 97365
Ph: 541/867-0309 Fax: 541/867-0389
dan.bottom@noaa.gov
Throughout the past century, two competing assumptions have directed management efforts in
the Columbia River estuary on behalf of salmon: (1) the estuary is irrelevant to conservation
because fresh water conditions limit salmon production; and (2) the estuary is a threat to juvenile
salmon because bird and mammal predators are concentrated in the narrow lower-river corridor.
These ideas have ignored the estuary’s role as a productive nursery ground and transitional
habitat for salmon stocks throughout the Columbia River Basin. The Columbia River estuary
contributes to salmon life history diversity by providing habitat opportunities for juveniles with
subyearling-migrant life histories. Small subyearling Chinook salmon seek shallow water rearing
habitats and occupy a diversity of emergent, shrub, and forested wetlands throughout the tidal
freshwater and brackish areas of the Columbia River estuary. Many estuarine-rearing juveniles
feed in wetland channels, grow on average 0.5 mm per day, and reside in the estuary for weeks
or months before entering the ocean. Recent estuarine surveys suggest that life history diversity
among subyearling Chinook salmon has declined since early in the twentieth century and could
limit the resilience of contemporary populations to changing environmental conditions.
Numerous changes upriver (e.g., hatchery programs, population losses, flow regulation) and
within the estuary (e.g. wetland habitat losses, increased water temperatures) may have
contributed to the apparent reduction in life history variation. Loss of tidal wetlands could further
limit the capacity of estuarine food webs to support juvenile salmon. Energy flow to salmon is
derived from wetland detritus, and juveniles throughout the estuary feed on insect prey that is
produced in wetland habitats. Although sources of wetland detritus have declined during the last
century, contemporary salmon food webs still rely disproportionately on wetland-derived prey.
All Columbia Basin ESUs are represented in estuarine habitats, and a diversity of genetic stock
groups, including interior summer/fall stocks, rear in tidal wetland habitats of all types. Recovery
of Columbia River salmon will require that sufficient habitat opportunity is provided in the
estuary to accommodate the full complement of stocks and life history types in the basin. Among
the principal concerns in the estuary for salmon recovery programs are loss of peripheral wetland
and tidal floodplain habitats; effects of hatchery programs and flow regulation on patterns of
estuarine migration, residency, and habitat use; and the risk of increasing water temperatures on
summer and fall rearing opportunities for young salmon.
References Columbia River Estuary
Anderson, G. O. 2006. Variations in estuarine life history diversity of juvenile Chinook salmon
based on stable isotope analysis of food web linkages. M.S. Thesis. School of Aquatic
and Fisheries Sciences, University of Washington, Seattle, WA.
Bottom, D. L., and K. K. Jones. 1990. Species composition, distribution, and invertebrate prey of
fish assemblages in the Columbia River estuary. Progress in Oceanography 25:243-27


So why does the Grays River which is one ridge system over meet escapement every year for their native winter steelhead returns?? They migrate out through the same estuary....

Keith
_________________________
It's time to put the red rubber nose away, clown seasons over.


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#432516 - 05/04/08 03:32 PM Re: Poor returns call for an answer [Re: stlhdr1]
Todd Offline
Dick Nipples

Registered: 03/08/99
Posts: 28170
Loc: Seattle, Washington USA
I think it's too simplistic to blame the downfall of wild fish on any one factor...but usually by the time they stop planting hatchery fish and stop harvest fishing over a depressed stock it's far too late to do any good...

The Nisqually is a point in fact...a very strong native run of steelhead was fished down to the point that it could barely survive...stopping fishing and hatchery plants of winter runs has done little to help, but the stock was pretty much functionally extinct by the time they did it.

Fish on...

Todd
_________________________


Team Flying Super Ditch Pickle


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#432518 - 05/04/08 03:40 PM Re: Poor returns call for an answer [Re: stlhdr1]
Steelheadman Offline
River Nutrients

Registered: 03/15/99
Posts: 4214
Loc: Poulsbo, WA,USA
Here Todd this is from 5 minutes of research, http://www.fish.washington.edu/hatchery/education.html

"When fry emerge from the redd or incubator, they must find food immediately. Fry eat a variety of foods in the wild, mostly aquatic insects. When fry are raised artificially, they are fed an artificial diet."

I see that the hatchery smolts are taking all the natives artificial food supplies. Have they been spraying insects in the river basins?

"The physiological changes that occur cause the smolts to become less active, making them more susceptible to predation. There are many predators in estuaries including wading birds, kingfishers, and other larger fish." ---- Preditation is the biggest problem.

"Salmon gain most of their weight in the ocean. There is lots of food for the salmon in the ocean and growth is rapid. Salmon feed on krill, squid, herring and other small fishes. The first year of life in the ocean is the most critical year for the immature salmon. There are many large predators in the ocean that like to eat salmon as much as humans do. Since the salmon haven't grown to their full adult size in the first year, it is harder to avoid predators."

What I find ironic and almost hypocritcal is that I've seen Todd and Jake fishing for hatchery steelhead.
_________________________
I'd Rather Be Fishing for Summer Steelhead!

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#432519 - 05/04/08 03:48 PM Re: Poor returns call for an answer [Re: Steelheadman]
LoweDown Offline
Conquistador

Registered: 08/07/06
Posts: 1783
Loc: Forks, WA
 Originally Posted By: Steelheadman
This competetion for food between native vs hatchery fish is all theory.



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#432521 - 05/04/08 03:50 PM Re: Poor returns call for an answer [Re: LoweDown]
LoweDown Offline
Conquistador

Registered: 08/07/06
Posts: 1783
Loc: Forks, WA
Steelheadman, when the hatcheries release smolts, they compete with wild smolts for food during outmigration. It's pretty well understood that most of our rivers are malnourished. You may never have seen a starving adult salmon or steelhead, but I've seen many, many starving smolts.

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#432522 - 05/04/08 03:52 PM Re: Poor returns call for an answer [Re: LoweDown]
stlhdr1 Offline
BUCK NASTY!!

Registered: 01/26/00
Posts: 6424
Loc: Vancouver, WA
 Originally Posted By: LoweDown
Steelheadman, when the hatcheries release smolts, they compete with wild smolts for food during outmigration. It's pretty well understood that most of our rivers are malnourished. You may never have seen a starving adult salmon or steelhead, but I've seen many, many starving smolts.


When do our winter native steelhead smolt migrate out of the river? When do the hatchery winter fish migrate out of the river?

Keith
_________________________
It's time to put the red rubber nose away, clown seasons over.


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#432523 - 05/04/08 03:58 PM Re: Poor returns call for an answer [Re: stlhdr1]
LoweDown Offline
Conquistador

Registered: 08/07/06
Posts: 1783
Loc: Forks, WA
When do the coho smolts outmigrate? What about fall chinook? Spring chinook? Summer steelhead?

They all share the river at different times. It doesn't just have to be winter steelhead competing with winter steelhead for hatchery fish to be competing with natives.

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#432524 - 05/04/08 04:04 PM Re: Poor returns call for an answer [Re: LoweDown]
Todd Offline
Dick Nipples

Registered: 03/08/99
Posts: 28170
Loc: Seattle, Washington USA
Steelheadman, I hope you are actually a lot smarter than you are coming across, because you are either being intentionally contrary, or you're just not that bright.

Of course hatchery juveniles eat artificial food...when they're in the hatchery. They do eat after they are released into rivers, of course. You're not suggesting that they are continuing to eat fish pellets after they have been released, are you?

They also eat when they are adults, during the time you cited that "most of the growth" occurs...you're not suggesting that they are still eating fish pellets while they are out in the ocean, are you?

What's hypocritical about fishing for hatchery fish? That's what they're there for. Pointing out that hatchery fish cause problems for wild fish doesn't mean you shouldn't go fishing for them.

I bet you think Global Warming and Evolution are "just theories", too, huh? "Theory" of Relativity?

This conversation has now gone from "ignorant" to "fuckin ridiculous"...thanks for the Sunday humor, it's better than the comics in my paper.

Fish on...

Todd
_________________________


Team Flying Super Ditch Pickle


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#432525 - 05/04/08 04:07 PM Re: Poor returns call for an answer [Re: Todd]
LoweDown Offline
Conquistador

Registered: 08/07/06
Posts: 1783
Loc: Forks, WA
Pretty good action in the fish counting window today:

https://www.nwp.usace.army.mil/op/b/fishcam.asp

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#432527 - 05/04/08 04:08 PM Re: Poor returns call for an answer [Re: ]
Steelheadman Offline
River Nutrients

Registered: 03/15/99
Posts: 4214
Loc: Poulsbo, WA,USA
The issue of hatchery vs wild is not black and white. Again you have to break it down by region. This thread started talking about the Oregon coast. Then Todd mentioned Chambers Creek origin hatchery wintruns. This is what I'm talking about. They tried to shut down the hatchery a few years ago and a bunch of ifishers kept it going. If they shut down this fishery there would be a lot less pressure on naives as they would put them on the ESA and shut it down totall.

Here's another study, http://www.dfw.state.or.us/fish/ONFSR/final/07-summer-steelhead/ss-methods.pdf

0% of Siletz hatchery steelhead spawned from 2000-2005. They are all trapped now at the falls and only the wilds are allowed passage. So there is no competetion above the falls.
_________________________
I'd Rather Be Fishing for Summer Steelhead!

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#432528 - 05/04/08 04:11 PM Re: Poor returns call for an answer [Re: stlhdr1]
milt roe Offline
Spawner

Registered: 01/22/06
Posts: 925
Loc: tacoma

In many systems, there are more smolts coming out through the estuary than there were historically due to hatchery outplanting. Columbia, S Sound, etc. are seeing millions more smolts than they likely did historically. The marine environment is not an unlimited pasture - particularly in times like this when productivity is low. True - Survival is low for all of those hatchery fish, but they do persist for some time and no doubt have a negative effect on their wild cousins through competition, disease, attracing predation, etc. And then there is the obvious inter-breeding dilution of the native gene pool when they return as adults.

OK - Time for someone to rant about habitat now.

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#432530 - 05/04/08 04:15 PM Re: Poor returns call for an answer [Re: Steelheadman]
Todd Offline
Dick Nipples

Registered: 03/08/99
Posts: 28170
Loc: Seattle, Washington USA
Wait a minute here...

First, the hatchery fish relieve pressure on the natives (bullchit, but that was your contention earlier).

Now, if they shut down the hatchery there would be "a lot less pressure on the natives"...

Dood, I'm starting to wonder about you.

All fish eat, and all feeding fish that eat the same thing are competing with each other. To think otherwise is absolutely ridiculous, and it doesn't get any more black and white than that.

Adult steelhead in rivers on their spawning runs do not feed, so keeping hatchery fish below the falls on the Siletz does not decrease competition for food. It decreases competition among spawning adults for spawning territory.

Wild fry from those fish above the falls quickly fall downstream to the lower river feeding and rearing areas, where they are soon joined by thousands of hatchery smolts...all eating the same thing, and competing for space with them.

You really ought to figure out what it is you're talking about, you are starting to go in circles and comparing apples and oranges now.

Fish on...

Todd
_________________________


Team Flying Super Ditch Pickle


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#432532 - 05/04/08 04:20 PM Re: Poor returns call for an answer [Re: ]
LoweDown Offline
Conquistador

Registered: 08/07/06
Posts: 1783
Loc: Forks, WA
Gonna be a big day. Temps must have finally come up a bit. 6300 went over yesterday...

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#432534 - 05/04/08 04:25 PM Re: Poor returns call for an answer [Re: LoweDown]
Todd Offline
Dick Nipples

Registered: 03/08/99
Posts: 28170
Loc: Seattle, Washington USA
_________________________


Team Flying Super Ditch Pickle


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#432536 - 05/04/08 04:45 PM Re: Poor returns call for an answer [Re: ]
stlhdr1 Offline
BUCK NASTY!!

Registered: 01/26/00
Posts: 6424
Loc: Vancouver, WA
 Originally Posted By: AuntyM
BTW, there seem to be a whole lot of shiny football looking things in the camera at Bonnie today.

Mesmerizing...


Let's keep our fingers crossed... I'd love to see more fish show but we're a far cry from the pre-season forecasts as well as the updated forecasts. We'll have to see some 15000+ fish days to make it.... I still think my preseason prediction of 132,000 is going to be pretty accurate.....

Keith
_________________________
It's time to put the red rubber nose away, clown seasons over.


Top
#432539 - 05/04/08 04:50 PM Re: Poor returns call for an answer [Re: Steelheadman]
Steelheadman Offline
River Nutrients

Registered: 03/15/99
Posts: 4214
Loc: Poulsbo, WA,USA
Todd, Thanks for insulting my intelligence. I'm not a fish biologist or an attorney. What did you study as an undergrad? So what is your scientific background? Based on what I've seen posted it's very little. I guess if you read it enough it becomes fact or is it rhetoric? Just because you don't agree with me doesn't mean I'm not bright.

I'm an engineer BTW so I like to see numbers and statistics. If you read it enough it becomes fact or does it become rhetoric? Usually science does start out with a thesis and a theory is developed. Cause and effect can be analyzed by the Paretto diagram. Observations can be plotted to see if there is a linear or non-linear relationship. You can also check for variances, stnd deviation, mean, etc. I really do think there is a problem with ocean climate, etc. Maybe the fish are late do to the cool water or there is a bigger problem. But for somebody to just point their finger on one cause is naive.

I've got other things I should be doing and need to take a break from all this hatchery vs wild fighting.
_________________________
I'd Rather Be Fishing for Summer Steelhead!

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#432540 - 05/04/08 04:59 PM Re: Poor returns call for an answer [Re: Steelheadman]
Todd Offline
Dick Nipples

Registered: 03/08/99
Posts: 28170
Loc: Seattle, Washington USA
 Originally Posted By: Steelheadman
Todd, Thanks for insulting my intelligence. I'm not a fish biologist or an attorney. What did you study as an undergrad? So what is your scientific background? Based on what I've seen posted it's very little. I guess if you read it enough it becomes fact or is it rhetoric? Just because you don't agree with me doesn't mean I'm not bright.



You're welcome, and thanks for asking.

BS in Marine Biology, minor in Chemistry, emphasis on Organic Chemistry. I worked for two years as a biologist before going back to school to become an attorney, emphasis in Environmental Law.

Read the dozens of articles I found for you in a four second Google search...all the "statistics" you need can be found in there.

We're not talking about whether or not there is life on Pluto, or who's going to win a Grammy next year...we're talking about 100% accepted in the entire scientific community fundamental pieces of the puzzle. The stuff we're arguing about here isn't even in question anywhere, except, evidently, in your head.

Like I said above...take five minutes to research, and you will find 100% unanimous consensus amongst all fisheries biologists discussing the issue...it really is that easy, much easier than sticking to your guns on something that you obviously don't know about.

I'm not trying to insult your intelligence...I'm trying to get you to use it.

Fish on...

Todd
_________________________


Team Flying Super Ditch Pickle


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#432542 - 05/04/08 05:18 PM Re: Poor returns call for an answer [Re: Steelheadman]
Steelheadman Offline
River Nutrients

Registered: 03/15/99
Posts: 4214
Loc: Poulsbo, WA,USA
So how do you know that its just hatchery vs wild competition for food in the ocean? Why not competition between species. http://www.nwfsc.noaa.gov/research/divisions/fed/oeip/hf-forage-hake-abundance.cfm

Here's something that almost sounds like scientific research from NOAA,
http://www.nwfsc.noaa.gov/research/divisions/fed/oeip/g-forecast.cfm

If there is a problem with food supply would we not see a difference in the size of returning adults?

Todd that's an impressive resume. My engineering degree is a BS in Chemical Engineering and I was 1 credit short of minoring in Math, Econ, and Chemistry. Only took BioSci 102 which was an easy A. I work as an Environmental Engineer. I am a little green to all this fishery stuff.


Edited by Steelheadman (05/04/08 05:31 PM)
_________________________
I'd Rather Be Fishing for Summer Steelhead!

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