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#485342 - 02/05/09 12:46 PM Re: GH Officially on the Commission's Radar Screen [Re: eyeFISH]
Todd Offline
Dick Nipples

Registered: 03/08/99
Posts: 28170
Loc: Seattle, Washington USA
Originally Posted By: fishNphysician
When you really think about it, they are not really in the business of managing fish, they're actually in the business of managing people..... specifically the people who exploit the fish.


That is absolutely true...100%...and that's why we continue to lose runs, one at a time...the "on the ground" folks know what's up, but the top tier folks are so worried about who gets to kill what that they don't have the time or energy to focus on the fish.

The Commission is the body we need to get to, as they can pretty much order the Dept. to do whatever they want them to do...and it's easier to get a handful of Commissioners on board than it is to change the institutional group think of dozens of harvest managers.

Fish on...

Todd
_________________________


Team Flying Super Ditch Pickle


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#485367 - 02/05/09 02:10 PM Re: GH Officially on the Commission's Radar Screen [Re: ]
Castingpearls Offline
Repeat Spawner

Registered: 03/26/08
Posts: 1257
Loc: The Rock
Could somebody tell me where to go for this meeting? I think I can attend.

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#485371 - 02/05/09 02:23 PM Re: GH Officially on the Commission's Radar Screen [Re: Castingpearls]
Rocket Red Offline
River Nutrients

Registered: 02/14/06
Posts: 2540
Loc: Elma
Originally Posted By: Castingpearls
Could somebody tell me where to go for this meeting? I think I can attend.


Walk due south from your office until you see the big glass building on your left. It is on the first floor in there.
_________________________
WDFW - Turning outdoorsmen into golfers since 1994.

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#485373 - 02/05/09 02:27 PM Re: GH Officially on the Commission's Radar Screen [Re: Rocket Red]
Castingpearls Offline
Repeat Spawner

Registered: 03/26/08
Posts: 1257
Loc: The Rock
Is that just to the left of DOL?

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#485377 - 02/05/09 02:33 PM Re: GH Officially on the Commission's Radar Screen [Re: Castingpearls]
slabhunter Offline
River Nutrients

Registered: 01/17/04
Posts: 3742
Loc: Sheltona Beach
Natural Resources Building
First Floor, Room 172
http://www.ga.wa.gov/images/campus-map.pdf



Usually there is an information /sign in table between the lobby and the meeting room. smile


Attachments
100_1876.JPG




Edited by slabhunter (02/05/09 03:05 PM)
_________________________
When we are forgotten, we cease to exist .
Share your outdoor skills.

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#485441 - 02/05/09 04:12 PM Re: GH Officially on the Commission's Radar Screen [Re: slabhunter]
fish4brains Offline
Dah Rivah Stinkah Pink Mastah

Registered: 08/23/06
Posts: 6868
Loc: zipper
walk past DOL to get there.
_________________________
...
Propping up an obsolete fishing industry at the expense of sound fisheries management is irresponsible. -Sg



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#485443 - 02/05/09 04:15 PM Re: GH Officially on the Commission's Radar Screen [Re: fish4brains]
Castingpearls Offline
Repeat Spawner

Registered: 03/26/08
Posts: 1257
Loc: The Rock
Thanks for that.

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#485661 - 02/06/09 07:35 AM Re: GH Officially on the Commission's Radar Screen [Re: Castingpearls]
eyeFISH Offline
Ornamental Rice Bowl

Registered: 11/24/03
Posts: 12767
Maybe see a few of you there later today.
_________________________
"Let every angler who loves to fish think what it would mean to him to find the fish were gone." (Zane Grey)

"If you don't kill them, they will spawn." (Carcassman)


The Keen Eye MD
Long Live the Kings!

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#485847 - 02/06/09 08:33 PM Re: GH Officially on the Commission's Radar Screen [Re: eyeFISH]
eyeFISH Offline
Ornamental Rice Bowl

Registered: 11/24/03
Posts: 12767
Good to see AuntyM (ladies first!) slabhunter, bushbear, fish4brains, ronnie, and Big John in attendance.

Will post more later when I have a chance to collect my thoughts.
_________________________
"Let every angler who loves to fish think what it would mean to him to find the fish were gone." (Zane Grey)

"If you don't kill them, they will spawn." (Carcassman)


The Keen Eye MD
Long Live the Kings!

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#485851 - 02/06/09 08:57 PM Re: GH Officially on the Commission's Radar Screen [Re: eyeFISH]
slabhunter Offline
River Nutrients

Registered: 01/17/04
Posts: 3742
Loc: Sheltona Beach
I can't sleep. This whole thing shows the bias towards harvest at any cost.

The interm director indicated a favoritism to harvest into the escapement because if didn't harvest our "share" the Qin would?

Hello, we are talking not making the escapement level for a number of years. Why in the world place a front loaded, most harmful-least sustainable commercial harvest on stocks/species not even meeting escapement???
_________________________
When we are forgotten, we cease to exist .
Share your outdoor skills.

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#485876 - 02/06/09 10:22 PM Re: GH Officially on the Commission's Radar Screen [Re: ]
fish4brains Offline
Dah Rivah Stinkah Pink Mastah

Registered: 08/23/06
Posts: 6868
Loc: zipper
Commissioners asked a few pointed questions one specifically regarding escapement (lack of), and when the interim director answered, the only word I could think of to describe it is waffling.

Waffling, from Merriam Webster: 2: to talk or write foolishly : blather <can waffle…tiresomely off the point — Times Literary Supplement
_________________________
...
Propping up an obsolete fishing industry at the expense of sound fisheries management is irresponsible. -Sg



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#485878 - 02/06/09 10:46 PM Re: GH Officially on the Commission's Radar Screen [Re: fish4brains]
Fishguy50 Offline
Fry

Registered: 10/30/08
Posts: 35
Thanks to all who fight the good fight!!! FNP summed it up for me when he wrote,"But the fish managers have to be honest with themselves(and the public they serve)".Hopefully the "LIARS" that have been running things are gone!!!!

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#485882 - 02/06/09 11:01 PM Re: GH Officially on the Commission's Radar Screen [Re: eyeFISH]
eyeFISH Offline
Ornamental Rice Bowl

Registered: 11/24/03
Posts: 12767
WFW Commission Meeting synopsis:

(I'll limit this post to the portion about Grays Harbor. Will post another thread about other topics discussed.)

Presentation by Kirt Hughes started with a brief history about the development of the GH Tier Plan, its objectives, and a cursory walk thru how it applies to chinook. He then spent a little time on the NOF process followed by a brief review of the GH hatchery facilities and the aggregate volume of hatchery releases by species. He then went into a discussion of basin-wide (aggregate, not stream by stream) escapements for chinook, coho and chum... all of which have been trending downward with escapements below goal the past three years (05/06/07). '08 data is still pending, but preliminary numbers are likely below goal for chinook and chum, and marginally above goal for coho. He then talked about treaty vs non-treaty harvests for chinook and coho, indicating that some years we take more and some years the QIN takes more.

Nice concise presentation but a little short on details.

Phil Anderson then remarked about how Kirt's talk was technically accurate but did not reflect the true COMPLEXITY of managing a basin with mixed stocks, depressed stocks, BC/AK interceptions, the conflicting interests of diverse stakeholders... a treaty tribal gillnet fishery, a non-treaty tribal gillnet fishery, a non-tribal gillnet fishery, and a recreational fishery (splintered along the lines of estuary vs in-river users), a sometimes less than cooperative co-manager relationship in terms of sharing data, reaching technical agreement on run-size forecasts and escapements, and setting harvest policies. After all, they are one of three "self-regulating" tribes.

Usually these briefings end up being FYI type sessions that just get a rubber stamped Good Housekeeping Seal of Approval. Nice presentation, good job.... next. NOT THIS TIME.

Commissioners then proceeded to press the director with tougher questions.

It was really refreshing to see the commission pushing for more accountability, enough to make staff squirm just a bit. It was almost comical to hear them formulate a dodge to the direct questions, then almost get lost in their responses... at one point Phil stopped himself and said , "I'm not really sure where I'm going with this, but...." On the other hand it was also painful to listen to some of the responses.

How about in-season management?
Nope, don't have the capabilities to accurately assess the run in-season. Even if we stopped fishing, not sure our co-managers would.

How about chronic failure to meet escapement goals?
Uh.. Uh.. Uh.. Well that's as much art as it is science. We can't always come to technical agreement. In fact, QIN would actually like to see us lower the spawning escapement goals. We just do the best we can given the circumstances.

What about harvest? Are we catching too many?
Uh... Uh... Uh... Well sometimes they take more, sometimes we take more. When runs are small we try to limit our take to 10% but the QIN is not bound by that limitation nor any others in the tier plan. If we don't maximally fish our share, they'd probably do it for us.

What about the harvest model? Is it accurate? Can we improve it? Is there another model?
Uh... Well it depends on the BC/AK interceptions. It depends on ocean survival. The treaty with Canada might help get us some more fish back. The amount of fishing time is limited, so the catch rate can vary. If they hit the days just right... well... it depends on weather... it depends on participation... it depends on whether the fish are there when our folks are fishing. Uh... Uh... Uh....

To his credit, Kirt did say he would run a retrospective analysis of how well the pre-season harvest model held up for the actual post-season run-size for each year. If needed, the model could be adjusted accordingly.

Back to escapement. We really need to look at these numbers. How about harvest buffers?
Uh.... Well if we don't take them, the QIN would happily take them for us.

Then out of the blue, one commissioner spoke up to give WDFW kudos for their working releationship with the QIN. "You know, years back, 2003, 2004, we had all these conflicts about so many nets, so many days in the Chehalis, and now, not so much. It's so much better now, and I appreciate what you folks are doing"

huh huh huh

My assessment?

Commissioners sincerely want to take WDFW to task in Grays Harbor but really don't have a strategy for it.... YET. Kudos to Chair Wecker and Commissioner Conrad Mahnken for leading the charge.

The sad part? The staff responses amounted to nothing but a bunch of excuses for business as usual. The least I was hoping for was some commitment to being better stewards of our half. NADA!

And the less than cooperative relations between the co-managers? Not sure anything will change anytime soon. But it was refreshing to hear Anderson finally acknowledge that everything isn't peaches and cream. That's a change from every prior meeting I have ever attended. Perhaps they're finally wearing his patience thin.

So where do we go from here?

The only direct action I see coming out of the meeting is that the harvest model will be re-examined. That's at least a step in the right direction. I was a little disappointed that the Commission did not give Phil and Kirt a specific timeline to work on some of these deficiencies, or at least assign a date for the Commission to re-visit the issue at a future meeting for any progress.
_________________________
"Let every angler who loves to fish think what it would mean to him to find the fish were gone." (Zane Grey)

"If you don't kill them, they will spawn." (Carcassman)


The Keen Eye MD
Long Live the Kings!

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#485905 - 02/06/09 11:55 PM Re: GH Officially on the Commission's Radar Screen [Re: eyeFISH]
goatram Offline
Parr

Registered: 01/29/08
Posts: 51
Thank You All
For your time and energy in attending the meeting and reporting.
I am humbled
gr

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#485930 - 02/07/09 02:05 AM Re: GH Officially on the Commission's Radar Screen [Re: goatram]
Todd Offline
Dick Nipples

Registered: 03/08/99
Posts: 28170
Loc: Seattle, Washington USA
Francis, thanks for the summary, sorry I couldn't make it today.

The last time you and I were there talking about Grays Harbor fisheries, we really focused on the non-tribal commercial fisheries, the ones that were crafted to purposely fish into escapements, and then due to a greatly different run composition than was forecast, actually fished much farther into the escapements than was originally intended.

Was there any discussion of this, or did it all fall under the "if we don't overharvest, the QIN will do it for us" so we're just going to keep doing it?

Fish on...

Todd
_________________________


Team Flying Super Ditch Pickle


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#485933 - 02/07/09 02:24 AM Re: GH Officially on the Commission's Radar Screen [Re: goatram]
N W Panhandler Offline
Three Time Spawner

Registered: 01/05/07
Posts: 1560
Loc: Bremerton, Wa.
fishNphysician, great report, sounds like the commission is looking in the right direction. Have you guys ever asked for a meeting with the commission, You seem to have enough facts to sink a battleship, thank you and all that were there at the meeting.

Chuck G
_________________________
A little common sense is good, more is better.
Kitsap Chapter CCA


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#485946 - 02/07/09 09:46 AM Re: GH Officially on the Commission's Radar Screen [Re: N W Panhandler]
Dogfish Offline
Poodle Smolt

Registered: 05/03/01
Posts: 10979
Loc: McCleary, WA
Thanks for all of your work on the issue.
_________________________
"Give me the anger, fish! Give me the anger!"

They call me POODLE SMOLT!

The Discover Pass is brought to you by your friends at the CCA.

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#485993 - 02/07/09 07:54 PM Re: GH Officially on the Commission's Radar Screen [Re: slabhunter]
big john Offline
Juvenile at Sea

Registered: 01/21/03
Posts: 125
Loc: washington state
FNP: Yup, you gave a darned good report. I wish the Commissioners had asked Phil or Kirt if they could imagine any possible solution to fishing into the escapement, and if they could see any way to get the Quinaults to cooperate. Guess not. I just didn't think the Commission pushed the issue enough. My sense, unfortunately, was that the Commission simply GAVE UP and assumed that nothing further can be done.

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#486002 - 02/07/09 08:53 PM Re: GH Officially on the Commission's Radar Screen [Re: big john]
Todd Offline
Dick Nipples

Registered: 03/08/99
Posts: 28170
Loc: Seattle, Washington USA
Insisting that the other co-managers get their act together would require an incredible lack of self-introspection and irony for WDFW...so long as everyone is screwing it up, then they're all good.

Fish on...

Todd
_________________________


Team Flying Super Ditch Pickle


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#486012 - 02/07/09 09:27 PM Re: GH Officially on the Commission's Radar Screen [Re: Todd]
Wooly Bully Offline
Spawner

Registered: 10/21/02
Posts: 514
Loc: NE Seattle
Originally Posted By: Todd
Insisting that the other co-managers get their act together would require an incredible lack of self-introspection and irony for WDFW...so long as everyone is screwing it up, then they're all good.

Fish on...

Todd


IMO, the question becomes; what would the QIN have to do for WDFW to put their foot down and take them to court on a harvest or run size prediction issue? Sadly, I suspect that answer is the QIN pretty much does whatever the hell they want.

The science behind the run size prediction and exploitation rates should be heavily scrutinized by both co-managers and should go before a judge if an agreed upon synopsis cannot be reached. To simply give up and allow over harvest year after year is dispicable.
_________________________
The drift is always greener on the other side.

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