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#544590 - 10/08/09 09:33 PM Re: Do tribal police have a right to detain non-tr [Re: tyeeterror]
bigman Offline
Juvenile at Sea

Registered: 12/22/05
Posts: 176
Originally Posted By: tyeeterror
I find it silly that anyone who had never been in law enforcement would question why the tribal cops had their guns out. Hmm lets see truck load of guys with guns, lets just walk up and talk to em. Good way to get dead. I need more information before I can go one way or the other. FLAME AWAY, just putting different outlook in the mix.


Obviously you have never been a game warden. During hunting season game wardens walk up on thousands of hunters who are armed with loaded guns and vehicles that have guns in them (some of them loaded as well). Game wardens never pull their guns out in these situations. Being a game warden is a whole different world then being a city cop....


Edited by bigman (10/08/09 09:33 PM)

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#544591 - 10/08/09 09:38 PM Re: Do tribal police have a right to detain non-tr [Re: bigman]
RowVsWade Offline
River Nutrients

Registered: 11/08/06
Posts: 3405
Loc: Island Time
Originally Posted By: bigman
During hunting season game wardens walk up on thousands of hunters who are armed with loaded guns and vehicles that have guns in them (some of them loaded as well). Game wardens never pull their guns out in these situations. Being a game warden is a whole different world then being a city cop....


That is spot on. I have been politely checked thru the years and never had a gun drawn and pointed at me.

Like Stam said I might be dead or in jail if I was in their place...cause that chit would not fly nor would I cooperate with tribal dix.
_________________________
"...the pool hall I loved as a kid is now a 7-11..."

If you don't like our prices bring your wife down and we'll dicker.

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#544593 - 10/08/09 09:40 PM Re: Do tribal police have a right to detain non-tr [Re: tyeeterror]
Captain Offline
Returning Adult

Registered: 10/16/99
Posts: 324
Loc: Enumclaw, Washington, USA
Sad...very sad. I think if a jury connects the dots this family may own a casino. Also it looks like the tribal cops have dug a hole that will be tough to get out of. I have heard several stories about tribal cops exercising authority that they had no jurisdiction in and the tribe paid dearly. In one case as I recall the tribal police department was disbanded as part of the settlement.

My condolences to the family for their loss.

Captain

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#544610 - 10/08/09 11:37 PM Re: Do tribal police have a right to detain non-tr [Re: Driftfishnw]
ACT Offline
Juvenille at Sea

Registered: 11/25/02
Posts: 228
Loc: Port Townsend, WA
And in the Peninsula Daily news Sgt Stamper of the Jefferson County Sheriff's Office stated that the Tribal Officers "DO NOT HOLD LAW ENFORCEMENT CREDENTIALS " in Jefferson County. I repeat his words "DO NOT HOLD" law enforcement credentials in Jefferson County.

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#544611 - 10/08/09 11:39 PM Re: Do tribal police have a right to detain non-tr [Re: Captain]
Salmo g. Offline
River Nutrients

Registered: 03/08/99
Posts: 13526
Thanks John Q for your addition. It sure looks like the tribal cops may be liable for both civil and criminal violations. It will be interesting to see if the Tribe attempts to extend sovereign immunity authority to their LE officers' screw up. Sure is an interesting story.

Sg

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#544613 - 10/08/09 11:48 PM Re: Do tribal police have a right to detain non-tr [Re: Captain]
bushbear Offline
River Nutrients

Registered: 08/26/02
Posts: 4709
Loc: Sequim
What Bigman said.....I worked as a wildlife officer for 30 years. City and county officers that I knew or in some cases worked with me had a hard time accepting the way a wildlife officer makes a contact and it made them uncomfortable. At the same time, I have to admit that I might have a different approach working in a city.

One makes contacts based on the situation. Wildlife officers know/expect that persons contacted in the field may well be armed (firearms, archery, knives, etc) and the officer's KSAs are developed to help them make safe contacts. City, county, WSP, and obviously some tribal officers, have a different approach.

In my opinion, this situation should never have gotten to this point.

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#544620 - 10/09/09 12:19 AM Re: Do tribal police have a right to detain non-tribal [Re: rojoband]
shawn k Offline
Juvenile at Sea

Registered: 04/22/04
Posts: 199
this article in the Sequim gazette does a good job of spelling it all out. it even has a quote from the tribal rescources officer.

http://search.sequimgazette.com/sports/article.exm/2009-10-06_title


Two fathers and their sons went hunting in Brinnon on Saturday, but after legally downing an elk with a muzzle-loading rifle, they found themselves staring down the barrels of guns pointed at them by uniformed officers of the Port Gamble S'klallam Tribe.



"The whole thing was handled way wrong," said Don Phipps, who shot the elk. "I've never had anyone pull a gun on me in my whole life. I didn't understand it."



Phipps, his son Danny, 22, and friend Adam Boling, 28 were handcuffed for two hours while bystanders watched from nearby U.S. 101. Also with the three men was Boling's 2-year-old son Taylor.



All eventually were released at the scene and allowed to take the elk home for butchering, but the whole experience has left them wondering why the tribal police handled the incident the way they did.



According to Washington and Jefferson County law enforcement officials, Phipps was in full compliance with state and local laws on hunting and the use of firearms.



"I shot the animal pure legal," said Phipps, 48, of Shelton. He's been hunting since he was 9 years old, he said, and this year won a rare "elk permit" issued by Washington Fish and Game.



to the private property where elk were grazing around noon on Oct. 3. The elk were between U.S. 101 and the Hood Canal, across from the Bayshore Motel.



Boling said he and his son watched from a distance as Phipps shot the bull elk with a muzzleloader, an antique-style firearm legal for this specific hunting season and location, according to a state fish and wildlife official.



After the elk was felled, the men loaded it into Boling's Toyota pickup and started to drive up the dirt road toward the highway when two tribal officers approached them with their weapons drawn. One was holding a pistol and the other an AR 15 assault rifle, said Boling.



"When a man is walking at you pointing a gun at you, you don't know what to think," said Phipps.



"I tried to explain to him, I don't know how many times," Phipps continued. "I'm in the shooting area. He kept screaming 'no it's not - we have a report you shot it with a high powered rifle."



The officers made the hunters lie prone on the ground. Boling tried to get up to grab his son, who had hidden behind the truck, but the officers wouldn't let him, he said.



"What makes me maddest is what they did to that child," Phipps said. "They pointed [their guns] at everyone who was out there helping me."



"They hand-cuffed all three of us," Boling said, and told them to "Be quiet."



While in custody, a friend ran to the Brinnon General Store, grabbed a copy of the state hunting regulation book, and brought it to the scene. Boling said that helped convince the officers that the hunt was legal.



But then, Boling said, they were told they were in a "no shooting" zone and perhaps "recklessly" shooting. The hunting party had permission from the property owner, Boling said, and he'd been hunting there for years.



"We waited for an hour for the elk to get to a safe spot," Boling said. Although a muzzleloader has a range of only a hundred yards or so, Phipps was nonetheless aiming toward Hood Canal, not the highway or nearby homes, he said.



"I felt helpless," Boling said of not being able to comfort his son, who ran and hid behind the truck. "I was worried he would be shot."



Boling said he had his own unloaded rifle and shotgun in his truck. He had used it recently for bear hunting, but did not take it out while Phipps was hunting elk.



Joined by a Jefferson County deputy and a WSP trooper, the tribal officers took all three weapons and placed them on the ground as a crowd gathered to watch from the highway. The weapons were given back when the the handcuffed men were released.
The incident left the men upset and angry.




Despite being held for two hours, they were able to take the elk to Boling's house to gut it, and then to a butcher to prepare it before it would have spoiled, Boling said, although that had become a concern.
"What these guys did was absolutely wrong," said Boling. "It devastated my little kid."



"I'm going to question the whole thing." said Phipps. "If I had to do it all over again, I probably wouldn't do it," he said of the rare chance to use a muzzle-loader elk permit.

Charges pending?
Paul McCollum, director of Port Gamble S'Klallam Tribe Natural Resources Department said Tuesday that he had not yet seen the incident report from the responding officers, Cap. Gus Goller and Officer Dale Clark.



McCollum was unable to say what prompted his officers' response, though he noted there were a lot of cars on the side of the road as people watched the elk. The tribe has fishing and hunting rights that extend far beyond Kingston and Port Gamble, he said, and its enforcement officers are routinely in the Hood Canal vicinity.



McCollum said the hunters could face charges once his agency's report is reviewed by state officials.



Those charges could include both hunting and firearm violations, he said. "That area is a non-shooting area, I believe," said McCollum. He said that while the hunters claimed permission from the property owner, the owner is an elderly man who may have been confused.



Sgt. Phil Henry from Washington Fish and Game said he was not on duty the day of the incident.





However, he confirmed that an "Elk special permit" hunting season is under way from Oct. 3 - 11 in that area for those who were issued permits in a drawing. This particular hunt is limited to muzzleloaders, not modern rifles.



In addition Henry said, the area on the east side of Highway 101, behind the Brinnon store, is open to the discharge of firearms per Sec. 8.50.130 of the Jefferson County Code. The area closed to firearms use is between the highway and the Bonneville power lines, and runs from Dosewallips River Road to the Dosewallips River.



"There was no hunting violation," Henry said. "There was no shooting violation."



"I cannot speak to the issue of reckless endangerment because I wasn't there, and I have not talked to the Jefferson County deputy that investigated the scene," Henry added.




Jefferson County Sheriff Tony Hernandez said his agency only responded to assist the tribal officers, and as of Monday afternoon, it was unclear to him why tribal officers were there or why anyone was detained. The hunters were acting "legally," he said.

Photos by Jay Cline

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#544623 - 10/09/09 12:30 AM Re: Do tribal police have a right to detain non-tribal [Re: shawn k]
Driftfishnw Offline
Steelhead Hitman

Registered: 02/10/09
Posts: 2026
Thanks for the extra info. The hole keeps getting deeper for the tribal LE officers.

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#544625 - 10/09/09 12:54 AM Re: Do tribal police have a right to detain non-tribal [Re: Driftfishnw]
Steelheadman Offline
River Nutrients

Registered: 03/15/99
Posts: 4214
Loc: Poulsbo, WA,USA
This could be an interesting court case.


Edited by Steelheadman (10/09/09 01:30 AM)
_________________________
I'd Rather Be Fishing for Summer Steelhead!

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#544631 - 10/09/09 01:20 AM Re: Do tribal police have a right to detain non-tribal [Re: Steelheadman]
Dogfish Offline
Poodle Smolt

Registered: 05/03/01
Posts: 10979
Loc: McCleary, WA
McCallum is a total tool with his statement.

As far as carrying modern firearms in a vehicle during a muzzleloader season is concerned, it is completely legal. One hunter held a bear tag, and brought that rifle just in case.

I have also brought modern rifles in my truck along with me on ML trips, as I have shot coyotes, and also have had elk tags (modern firearm) in an adjacent or the same unit that I was allowed to hunt deer in with a ML. 200 miles away from home there is rarely a handy gun locker available. These guys were from Shelton, 50 miles away from home. Whenever hunting with a modern, I always placed my orange vest on first when I stepped out of the truck.

You can't hunt from a truck, so your hunt begins once you step out of the vehicle.
_________________________
"Give me the anger, fish! Give me the anger!"

They call me POODLE SMOLT!

The Discover Pass is brought to you by your friends at the CCA.

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#544636 - 10/09/09 01:29 AM Re: Do tribal police have a right to detain non-tribal [Re: Steelheadman]
Streamer Offline
No Stars for You!

Registered: 11/08/06
Posts: 2271
Loc: T-Town
Wow.
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#544640 - 10/09/09 01:53 AM Re: Do tribal police have a right to detain non-tribal [Re: Steelheadman]
Achewter Offline


Registered: 02/02/04
Posts: 2276
Loc: N of Seattle
Were the tribal cops Tribal members? Were they on the clock? If yes to both that tag may be the most valuable tag ever given out by the state of WA.

I don't blame them for checking. I would be glad to hear anyone had the balls to check if it was a legal kill.
Cuffing for two hours at gun point with a screaming 2 year old after proper tags were shown....JACKPOT for the hunters. if the cops were tribal members on duty.

I have a 10 year old Daughter with a hunting license for the second time bagging me to let her shoot a deer this year. I have a place that I know she can do it. This kid loves animals. She loves to watch them she loves to draw them and she says she wants to be a vet. When I cook game she eats every bite. At 8 She enjoyed retrieving doves with my lab for me. She has seen plenty of hanging meat but Killing one herself and watching one Die is just something I can't be sure she is ready for. I think if she still wants to do it after watching her brother do it I will let her. At 2 years old I don't believe any kid needs to see it.



But it may pay off for this kid in the long run. Hopefully in the form of a home or an education maybe a trustfund.....
_________________________
When Ma Nature decides to make ya her bitch, aint nothin your gonna do about it

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#544646 - 10/09/09 03:33 AM Re: Do tribal police have a right to detain non-tribal [Re: docspud]
BroodBuster Offline
River Nutrients

Registered: 07/11/04
Posts: 3113
Loc: Bothell, Wa
When the herd lives between the liquor store and the clam beds then that's where they are going to be harvested. Good for this guy filling his special tag. I guarantee no one in Brinnon is going to mourn the loss of a bull out of that herd. They have been a problem in that area for years. Just a couple of weeks ago they did a bunch of damage on my buddy’s street just a mile down the road. I would assume these hunters where the guests of honer at their regular Saturday night Potluck!

All you need to do is look at the pictures to know that the "natural order" is all messed up with that herd. So someone shoots the herds bull and all the rest of the herd stand around the truck watching this spectacle unfold??

The tribal cops screwed up big time and should be held accountable!
_________________________
"Government does not solve problems; it subsidizes them." Ronald Reagan

"The trouble with Socialism is that you eventually run out of other people's money." Margaret Thatcher.

"How fortunate for governments that the people they administer don't think." Adolf Hitler

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#544648 - 10/09/09 04:15 AM Re: Do tribal police have a right to detain non-tr [Re: Driftfishnw]
Irie Offline
River Nutrients

Registered: 11/26/06
Posts: 4358
Loc: South Sound
As if that family's week wasn't bad enough.

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#544667 - 10/09/09 10:13 AM Re: Do tribal police have a right to detain non-tribal [Re: rojoband]
mstar Offline
Fry

Registered: 01/30/08
Posts: 33
blah blah blah. Cenci did that to me when i killed a elk 2 miles off the quinault reservation. said "your not within your u and a". detained me for 1-2 hours taking pics. and all the other bs. so i say, " so where is my u and a boundry"? scratches his ass and say's " well it's not a u and a issue, it's a private land issue now". legal hunting season, tag on elk. so i tell him issue me a ticket or let me go. so i left and never heard from him again. maybe i should sue him and see if he can be fired, harrassment of a tribal hunter. all gamies do it, maybe the hunters said they were cherokee!

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#544681 - 10/09/09 11:29 AM Re: Do tribal police have a right to detain non-tribal [Re: mstar]
rojoband Offline
Returning Adult

Registered: 05/31/08
Posts: 264
Originally Posted By: mstar
blah blah blah. Cenci did that to me when i killed a elk 2 miles off the quinault reservation. said "your not within your u and a". detained me for 1-2 hours taking pics. and all the other bs. so i say, " so where is my u and a boundry"? scratches his ass and say's " well it's not a u and a issue, it's a private land issue now". legal hunting season, tag on elk. so i tell him issue me a ticket or let me go. so i left and never heard from him again. maybe i should sue him and see if he can be fired, harrassment of a tribal hunter. all gamies do it, maybe the hunters said they were cherokee!


Listen mstar...if what you describe is right, and you were out of your U&A then Cenci was 100% RIGHT! That's like me going to Canada and using my WA license to hunt elk and telling the mounties to go FRO! You make me sick thinking you are in the right. This is a similar situation just reverse, as if a Canadian LE figured he would come across the border and decide to come at me gun pulled and ready to detain me.

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#544689 - 10/09/09 11:52 AM Re: Do tribal police have a right to detain non-tribal [Re: rojoband]
Dogfish Offline
Poodle Smolt

Registered: 05/03/01
Posts: 10979
Loc: McCleary, WA
U&A hunting areas include areas outside of the reservation. No issue with MStarr on that part, but the WDFW and other LEO still has the authority to stop and detain him off reservation.

The tribal officers cannot do what they did, as U&A doesn't apply to these hunters, and they had no legal jusrisdiction. Two entirely different issues.
_________________________
"Give me the anger, fish! Give me the anger!"

They call me POODLE SMOLT!

The Discover Pass is brought to you by your friends at the CCA.

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#544694 - 10/09/09 12:25 PM Re: Do tribal police have a right to detain non-tribal [Re: Dogfish]
docspud Offline
Three Time Spawner

Registered: 11/01/06
Posts: 1563
Loc: Silverdale Wa
Irie,
As far as the color of their skin you are spot on. Adam said they were very white for tribal cops. Stated they did not look native. I dont know if that makes a difference in this case but for what it is worth to the discussion.
And since it is out there, yes Andrew passed away in the wreck two days later. Sad month for the family. My heart goes out. So I doubt we will hear much more about this as they are all grieving for now and I dont think they could care less about the cops with all that has happened.
_________________________
Never leave a few fish for a lot of fish son.....you just might not find a lot of fish-----Theo

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#544695 - 10/09/09 12:32 PM Re: Do tribal police have a right to detain non-tribal [Re: docspud]
rojoband Offline
Returning Adult

Registered: 05/31/08
Posts: 264
Latest news on the incident:
Port Gamble defends police actions

Interesting comment on the site (not my comment):
"Posted by M G on Fri, Oct 9, 2009, 1:11 am Pacific Time.

In 1978 the U.S. Supreme decided the issue of tribal criminal jurisdiction over non-Indians in a case involving the Suquamish Tribe. In Oliphant v. Suquamish Tribe the Court concluded that "Indian tribes do not have inherent jurisdiction to try and to punish non-Indians." That case even involved activities occurring on the Suquamish Reservation. Plain and simple, Tribes have absolutely no criminal jurisdiction over non-Indians - anywhere. At most, tribal police without cross deputization have the power to detain non-Indians suspected of criminal activity ON A RESERVATION and wait for state or county police to come along and take over. I understand that all people make mistakes - Indians and non-Indians alike. Let's not loose sight of that fact. However, aside from the completely erroneous assertion of jurisdiction here, the manner in which these "game agents" operated seems way out of control. And defending them just piles on to all the other mistakes. Why is it O.K. to call them "agents" and assume that solves a policing jurisdiction mistake? Time to stand up, take responsibility, and apologize. That's how respect is earned."

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#544701 - 10/09/09 12:54 PM Re: Do tribal police have a right to detain non-tribal [Re: rojoband]
Jerry Garcia Offline



Registered: 10/13/00
Posts: 9160
Loc: everett
It would seem that if someone on the highway or a nearby property suspected poaching the tribal police wouldn't be the ones called.
_________________________
would the boy you were be proud of the man you are

Growing old ain't for wimps
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