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#564588 - 12/15/09 08:41 PM Re: "Science, Politics, and Salmon," [Re: Fast and Furious]
polepole Offline
Fry

Registered: 11/27/06
Posts: 22
Loc: San Jose, CA
Gillnetting was banned on the Sacramento River in 1957, due to concerns expressed by the striped bass fishermen and the effect gillnetting was having on striped bass fisheries. The gillnetters weren't allowed to keep striped bass and a lot were getting killed and wasted.

-Allen

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#564589 - 12/15/09 08:45 PM Re: "Science, Politics, and Salmon," [Re: polepole]
SBD Offline
clown flocker

Registered: 10/19/09
Posts: 3743
Loc: Water
Are striped bass native or another eastcoast import along with shad?
_________________________


There's a sucker born every minute



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#564591 - 12/15/09 08:46 PM Re: "Science, Politics, and Salmon," [Re: polepole]
Fast and Furious Offline
River Nutrients

Registered: 12/30/07
Posts: 3164
So, now what remains to be worked on on the Sac and its tributaries

Water consumption
Dams
????

I read about the chemical spill in 91 up high on the Sac.


Edited by Lead Bouncer (12/15/09 08:50 PM)

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#564603 - 12/15/09 09:03 PM Re: "Science, Politics, and Salmon," [Re: Fast and Furious]
polepole Offline
Fry

Registered: 11/27/06
Posts: 22
Loc: San Jose, CA
Originally Posted By: Lead Bouncer
So, now what remains to be worked on on the Sac and its tributaries

Water consumption
Dams
????

I read about the chemical spill in 91 up high on the Sac.


Water consumption is a big threat, and where this thread started out. Much of the water is getting pumped south to the central valley farms and SoCal homes. The Delta pumps kill a lot of fish and take a lot of the freshwater out of the system. The salt water is intruding and the delta is becoming more and more brackish. The ecosystem is out of whack. But you know what, as recently as 2002 the Sac had runs as large as 800,000. What has changed between that time and now ... more water exports and 2+ years of bad ocean conditions.

-Allen

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#564608 - 12/15/09 09:21 PM Re: "Science, Politics, and Salmon," [Re: polepole]
Fast and Furious Offline
River Nutrients

Registered: 12/30/07
Posts: 3164
What about desalination plants?

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#564611 - 12/15/09 09:28 PM Re: "Science, Politics, and Salmon," [Re: Fast and Furious]
polepole Offline
Fry

Registered: 11/27/06
Posts: 22
Loc: San Jose, CA
Originally Posted By: Lead Bouncer
What about desalination plants?


They are cost prohibitive.

-Allen

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#564635 - 12/15/09 10:22 PM Re: "Science, Politics, and Salmon," [Re: polepole]
sykofish Offline
I'm not short, I'm 'fun size'

Registered: 12/25/07
Posts: 1511
Loc: Mulletville
What isnt cost prohibitive in California at the moment? Cant they just right another IOU? rofl

Something needs to change, and soon. California's thirst is going to cause the ocean and Sacramento fisheries to be a thing of the past.

Salmon and stripers. Sport and commercial.
_________________________


Rusty Bell

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#564638 - 12/15/09 10:50 PM Re: "Science, Politics, and Salmon," [Re: ]
sykofish Offline
I'm not short, I'm 'fun size'

Registered: 12/25/07
Posts: 1511
Loc: Mulletville
Well said KK.

Freshwater may be publicly traded like oil is today.
_________________________


Rusty Bell

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#564647 - 12/15/09 11:05 PM Re: "Science, Politics, and Salmon," [Re: sykofish]
Illahee Offline
River Nutrients

Registered: 05/22/05
Posts: 3781
Some have gone as far as to speculate wars will be fought over water.
In the case of water being extracted from the Delta, water dependent crops like rice and alfalfa can share part of the blame. One of the biggest problems is the aging irrigation canals, these inefficient conduits account to a huge amount of water, which is simply wasted.

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#564656 - 12/15/09 11:30 PM Re: "Science, Politics, and Salmon," [Re: Illahee]
Fast and Furious Offline
River Nutrients

Registered: 12/30/07
Posts: 3164
I dont know where they got the money, but Israel, has a desalination plant. They dont have any choice, but neither does California. Its going to be another public utility. Put down in front of Diane Feinsteins house or Resnicks house.


Edited by Lead Bouncer (12/15/09 11:31 PM)

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#564719 - 12/16/09 09:43 AM Re: "Science, Politics, and Salmon," [Re: Fast and Furious]
polepole Offline
Fry

Registered: 11/27/06
Posts: 22
Loc: San Jose, CA
It's not that CA couldn't round up the money if needed. The legislature recently put forth a proposal that calls for an $11B water bill package to go before the voters next year. Sucking water out of the Sac is still cheaper than desalination, perhaps short sighted, but still ... cheaper. frown

-Allen

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#564835 - 12/16/09 03:44 PM Re: "Science, Politics, and Salmon," [Re: Fast and Furious]
Illahee Offline
River Nutrients

Registered: 05/22/05
Posts: 3781
So what's the fix on the Sacramento, harvest reform, or habitat restoration?

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#564844 - 12/16/09 04:01 PM Re: "Science, Politics, and Salmon," [Re: Illahee]
Salmo g. Offline
River Nutrients

Registered: 03/08/99
Posts: 13526
FS,

There's not much harvest left to reform on the Sac. Highest priority is water quantity and quality. Effective screens on all remaining diversions wouldn't hurt either.

Big issue in this picture is the San Juaquin, which is a large river almost entirely diverted for subsidized ag irrigation.

Sg

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#564850 - 12/16/09 04:13 PM Re: "Science, Politics, and Salmon," [Re: Salmo g.]
polepole Offline
Fry

Registered: 11/27/06
Posts: 22
Loc: San Jose, CA
What harvest? The season has been more or less closed for 2 years now.

-Allen

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#564922 - 12/16/09 08:17 PM Re: "Science, Politics, and Salmon," [Re: Salmo g.]
Illahee Offline
River Nutrients

Registered: 05/22/05
Posts: 3781
So what your saying is unless you address the key habitat issues, harvest reform isn't going to do diddly squat to recover the stocks.

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#564928 - 12/16/09 08:40 PM Re: "Science, Politics, and Salmon," [Re: Illahee]
polepole Offline
Fry

Registered: 11/27/06
Posts: 22
Loc: San Jose, CA
So what exactly does one do about "poor ocean conditions"? That is believed to be the single highest factor in the current downturn in Sac Salmon numbers.

-Allen

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#564935 - 12/16/09 09:07 PM Re: "Science, Politics, and Salmon," [Re: polepole]
Fast and Furious Offline
River Nutrients

Registered: 12/30/07
Posts: 3164

Some folks need to play their little game with every issue, in order to undermine or scold the organization, that doesnt take the same expensive, time consuming path, other organizations have worked on for decades. At the same time, the folks who always talk about habitat, have never reported on their own projects, or invited anyone of us, to chip in on a project. There are no restriction on volunteer efforts, its when the planning and money comes into the equation, things slow down.

If some of those folks had real involvement, they would know that most of the organizations scrape up enough resources and volunteers for one objective at a time. Every organization has to look at the results achieved, for the amount of time and money spent on a particular goal. Unfortunately, too many people expect these politicians to roll over for a 501C3 who cant pad their campaign coffers. For private enterprise on our side of the equation, its split between NSIA, ASA, NMTA and the rest of the Angler nonprofits. There is a limited amount of cash to go around. These organization will eventually work for same cause, and coordinate, but their history and structure are not going to be thrown to the curb.




Edited by Lead Bouncer (12/16/09 09:09 PM)

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#564942 - 12/16/09 09:20 PM Re: "Science, Politics, and Salmon," [Re: Fast and Furious]
stlhdr1 Offline
BUCK NASTY!!

Registered: 01/26/00
Posts: 6424
Loc: Vancouver, WA
Originally Posted By: Lead Bouncer

Some folks need to play their little game with every issue, in order to undermine or scold the organization, that doesnt take the same expensive, time consuming path, other organizations have worked on for decades. At the same time, the folks who always talk about habitat, have never reported on their own projects, or invited anyone of us, to chip in on a project. There are no restriction on volunteer efforts, its when the planning and money comes into the equation, things slow down.

If some of those folks had real involvement, they would know that most of the organizations scrape up enough resources and volunteers for one objective at a time. Every organization has to look at the results achieved, for the amount of time and money spent on a particular goal. Unfortunately, too many people expect these politicians to roll over for a 501C3 who cant pad their campaign coffers. For private enterprise on our side of the equation, its split between NSIA, ASA, NMTA and the rest of the Angler nonprofits. There is a limited amount of cash to go around. These organization will eventually work for same cause, and coordinate, but their history and structure are not going to be thrown to the curb.




Wow, looks like you spent some time writing this Novel LB.... Keep up the good work.... rofl

Keith thumbs
_________________________
It's time to put the red rubber nose away, clown seasons over.


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#564946 - 12/16/09 09:26 PM Re: "Science, Politics, and Salmon," [Re: Fast and Furious]
boater Offline
Three Time Spawner

Registered: 07/01/09
Posts: 1760
Loc: common sense ave.
Originally Posted By: Lead Bouncer

Some folks need to play their little game with every issue, in order to undermine or scold the organization, that doesnt take the same expensive, time consuming path, other organizations have worked on for decades. At the same time, the folks who always talk about habitat, have never reported on their own projects, or invited anyone of us, to chip in on a project. There are no restriction on volunteer efforts, its when the planning and money comes into the equation, things slow down.

If some of those folks had real involvement, they would know that most of the organizations scrape up enough resources and volunteers for one objective at a time. Every organization has to look at the results achieved, for the amount of time and money spent on a particular goal. Unfortunately, too many people expect these politicians to roll over for a 501C3 who cant pad their campaign coffers. For private enterprise on our side of the equation, its split between NSIA, ASA, NMTA and the rest of the Angler nonprofits. There is a limited amount of cash to go around. These organization will eventually work for same cause, and coordinate, but their history and structure are not going to be thrown to the curb.




you should record this and have salmonbake humming the theme song for green acres in the background.

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#564960 - 12/16/09 10:16 PM Re: "Science, Politics, and Salmon," [Re: polepole]
SBD Offline
clown flocker

Registered: 10/19/09
Posts: 3743
Loc: Water
Poor Ocean conditions are one thing but what you guys are dealing with is far beyond that and if it wasn't for one fiesty old judge we would be in the exact same shape. Redden probaly would have tossed the guy from NMFS in jail for what he did to the biop.
_________________________


There's a sucker born every minute



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