We don't manage anything that has to do with fish or natural resources Todd, we only limit the destruction. We limit how many we are going to kill, we limit how much habitat we we will destroy, we limit...........well I think you get the point.

Simply modern society and salmonids are incompatible...........period. Rather than change our ways we take careful steps ( sometimes ) that reduce or mask humans impacts on our environment but never, never do we stop or reverse directions as to the steady destruction / modification of the natural world.

This thing on the Elwha is such a tiny step in the big picture, so long in coming with so much at risk, and we bitch that it did not achieve the perfect goals? Sometimes this BB is and amazing place for ideas, and sometimes not. I think the not has the lead in this thread!

Let me say that I would love to see a Elwah river back to the way it was 100 years ago. Many of my first salmon and steelhead came out of this river.
I have always been opposed this project and have always supported the groups that have opposed this gigantic waste of money that is nothing more than a feel good project/experiment.
Why spend hundreds of millions of dollars to try to save one river that we have f$%#ed years ago when there are a multitude of Puget Sound rivers that would be so much easier to repair.
If they were to come to us and say that the dams needed to be removed because of imminent threat of loss of human life due to either one or both of the dams stuctural integrity I may have been more supportive but the main arguemenrt has been "save fish!" if it were really about the fish theywould or could have put their resources into rivers that would be easier to restore just think how much money and time has already been wasted on this "feel good" project.
I like the rest of you would like to see those huge salmon backin the Elwah like Ma nature intended bit I am not convinced it will help at all .
Those that will benefit are "hatchery workers" and "trbal interests"
just my 2cents

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Elwha_Dam
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Condit_Hydroelectric_Project
http://www.rvcog.org/mn.asp?pg=NR_Gold_Ray_Dam


Dam's are relicensed on a maximum fifty year cycle, Elwha will be 100 next year. I'm sure the costs to relicense were far above the cost to remove it, biggest changes might come to the PNW when all the Columbia Dam's turn 100 starting with Bonneville in 2038..

40+ years, I've watched the politics of the Elwa......I'm glad that the dams are about to be gone.

There is another in Grays Harbor, that I wish would have never been built, and that was done in the early 70's........really nice that we have 27+ miles of river that can't be fished basically during salmon season........grrrrrrrrr No hatchery Coho, Chum, or Chinook but still the numbers of "wild return" are down. Wild steelhead numbers are also way down but still there is a QIN netting season.....December 1 - March, April or later.........So don't talk to me about natural fish bounce back, without changes in tribal methods....

And just which PS rivers would be "easaier" to repair? If they don'thave dams they have big cities on them. They have all those levees.

The beauty of the Elwha is that the only thing really wrong with the habitat is the dams. Remove them, and you have a free flowing river with intact forests and a pretty intact estuary.

What the Elwha does not have is fish management in place to ensure that its fish are n ot harvested in mixed stock fisheries and as juveniles prior to return to the river. Without that, the specific stock won't recover.

i get what you're saying, but i disagree. we are not talking about what the project has achieved, but disagreeing with portions of the project before it starts. we are spending a fortune to tear the dams out for the express purpose of restoring wild fish to the elwha. then we hear that there will be a production hatchery allowed and i don't think it is abnormal to question this based on the science of hatchery / wild interactions.

the hatchery is a waste of our taxpayer money, plain and simple.

still in favor of the dam removal though. a free flowing elwha is the right thing to do.

i think historically the hatchery is interesting. when the original dam was built illegally without fish passage, they eventually allowed it provided the dam owners built a hatchery to mitigate for lost fish... which of course became the basis for building dams and using unproven hatcheries to mitigate for their impacts on fish throughout the northwest. we now have come full circle where we have to "mitigate" for removal of dams and a free flowing river.

Carcassman -
I'm all for pullng the Elwha dams down and a strong support of grabbing whatever opportunities for restoration that present itself. Though like many I feel that the Elwha case will be a missed opportunity to see what Mother Nature could do if left alone with some good habitat -is a hatchery really neccesary?

Regarding Puget Sound rivers and Ralph's point. I think that the Stillaguamish might be good place to look. Lots of federal land, still an emphasis on wild fish. Yes it would be an up hill battle (which basin isn't?) but with logging being a major factor much of the ills in the basin just need the ending of abuses and time. Actually seeing improvements in the freshwater habitat the last few years and the estuary habitat is naturally forming outside of the dikes (maybe a 1/3 of historic and growing annually).

Even the Nooksack has some potential however weaning folks from the hatchery drug seems unlikely.

Tight lines
Curt

no, but you can bet that when the hatchery fish return and they start catching them that there will be a celebration that showcases the great job they did restoring the fish

It suprises me that there hasn't been scientific studies done exuming what is left with wild fish being chinook, steelhead, etc... Perhaps something that shows DNA profiles specific to the Elwah...

Does the state just not beleive there's much left to run with?

Keith

Dosie,duckabush,skokomish hell maybe even the nisqually would be a great place to start.
I agree that they should be taken down due to their age but that is not the arguement that has been pushed
Its all about the fish right. if that is the case then ALL fishing should be stopped after removal for the same amount of time that the dams have been in place to give Ma nature a chance to repair herself, until something along those lines is agreed upon by State and Tribes it will be a huge waste of money(IMHO).
Why wouldnt such an agreement been established already?
I apologize for my cynicism but I do not trust the powers that be.
I do want the Elwah and ALL other rivers to thrive as intended but until I see the committment by all to keep their F%$#ing hands off for 60 years I will be pessimistic.
God I hope I am wrong only time will tell.

Did a little digging and came up with this....

Genetics Research
After the dams on the Elwha River are removed, salmon and other fish will start re-establishing themselves in the river that has been blocked off for more than ninety years. The fish will be from one of two sources:

•Hatchery fish released as part of the watershed restoration, and
•Wild fish who have relocated from nearby areas.
Establishing genetic data on wild and hatchery fish in the Elwha River before the dams are removed is critical to understanding how fish will recolonize the river after the dams are removed. Using genetic data, researchers will be able to identify if re-established fish populations are from planned introductions of hatchery fish or are the result of fish straying from other areas. The ability to tell these two sources of fish apart using genetic information will allow researchers to assess the effectiveness of the planned hatchery fish releases. However, researchers must have genetic information about the fish before and after the dam removal to make this assessment. The first phase of the pre removal genetic data collection is already underway as part of the Genetic Studies in the Elwha River project.

Genetic Studies in the Elwha River System


Salmon smolts in the ocean.
National Park Service
The genetic studies project goal is to evaluate the genetic characteristics of Pacific salmon and steelhead in the Elwha River prior to dam removal. Researchers are collecting DNA from the fish in order to identify baseline data for fifteen genetic markers that will be used to monitor genetic richness and distinctiveness during recovery and/or recolonization of stocks in the river during and after dam removal. This project is being carried out by NOAA Fisheries (Gary Winans), the Lower Elwha Klallam Tribe (Mike McHenry), the United States Geological Survey, the Alaska Department of Fish and Game, and the Pacific Biological Station.

What has been done so far on this project?
•NOAA Fisheries has established a genetics laboratory at the Mukilteo Field Station (Mukilteo, WA). The station is equipped with two genetic analyzers and polymerase chain reaction (PCR) capability, which will be used exclusively for dam recolonization research.


•Researchers have collaborated with Alaska Department of Fish and Game and Pacific Biological Station (Canada, Nanaimo, BC) to develop specific gene marker systems for chum and steelhead/rainbow trout.
•Researchers have also coordinated non-lethal fin tissue collections with staff of Lower Elwha Klallam tribe and United States Geological Survey.
•DNA data have been collected for 50-100 Chinook salmon (Oncorhynchus tshawytsch), coho salmon (O. kisutch), steelhead (O. mykiss), and chum salmon (O. keta).
•DNA data from chum salmon are being incorporated into mixed stock fishery programs for U.S./Canada fisheries management under the Pacific Salmon Commission.
What is next for this project?
•Additional collections of DNA samples are being planned to expand the temporal and spatial aspects of each species survey. Researchers are particularly interested in adding collections from neighboring watersheds.
•Some existing samples still need to be processed, including DNA collections of upper river rainbow trout, tissues from sockeye/kokanee (O. nerka), and juveniles from wild-spawning steelhead. The steelhead data will be used in a short-term broodstock program in the Lower Elwha Klallam hatchery. Characters that may be under selection (morphology and MHC loci) are being analyzed in the steelhead/rainbow trout collections.

I think most all are coming down due to their age, the benefits to salmon just help secure funding to pay for it, which lets the owners off the hook.

Don't forget as well about the "crib" hatchery on Morse creek in PA.
http://www.peninsuladailynews.com/article/20100205/NEWS/302059993

Both hatcheries are major disappointments to me. I think the ability of the fish to adapt is being under estimated. Stuffing the river with hatchery fish is a lost opportunity to really see what they can do on their own.

Good, bad, or indifferent, hatcheries are here and we have to work with and through them.

In defense of the Elwha hatcheries - as mentioned above, the dams did not provide for any fish passage when they were built and we're living with the consequences. The state and tribal hatcheries have been the repository for whatever Elwha River genetics might still be available in fish that return to the Elwha basin. The fish from those facilities will help supplement the in-basin recovery.

Time will tell.

For those that have spent time on this river, does this seem accurate??? I've fished the river a handful of times but not enough to make a educated guess.....................

Current Status
The salmon stocks in the Elwha River are severely depleted. In the 1990s, yearly estimated numbers of returning adult salmon species in the Elwha were (NPS 1996):

•1500 to 2000 Chinook salmon
•Less than 500 each of coho, chum, and steelhead,
•Less than 50 pink salmon, and
•Zero sockeye salmon (they are considered extinct in the Elwha River).
Today, nearly all Chinook, coho, and steelhead in the Elwha are hatchery produced, and the native stocks are declining. Below is a summary of the current status of the fish species in the Elwha River:

•Puget Sound Chinook salmon are defined by NOAA-Fisheries as "all naturally spawned populations from rivers and streams flowing into Puget Sound, including the Straits of Juan De Fuca from the Elwha R. eastward, and Hood Canal, South Sound, North Sound and the Strait of Georgia." (download map) Puget Sound Chinnok salmon are currently listed under the Endangered Species Act as threatened.
•Wild coho numbers in the Elwha River cannot be measured due to introductions of out of basin stocks; however, they have been reared in the tribal hatchery since 1977.
•Chum salmon are listed as possibly extinct by Nelsen, Williams, and Lichatowich (1991).
•Pink salmon are listed as critical (that is, at risk for extinction) by the Washington Department of Fish and Wildlife (WDFW) Salmonid Stock Inventory.
•Sockeye salmon are listed as extinct (Nelsen, Williams, and Lichatowich 1991).
•Summer and winter steelhead runs are listed as depressed by the WDFW Salmonid Stock Inventory.
•Sea-run cutthroat trout numbers are unknown in the lower Elwha River.
•Sea-run char (bull trout and Dolly Varden) may be present in the lower river, but have not been identified.
•Little information is known about the status of Pacific and Western brook lamprey, white sturgeon, eulachon (smelt), three spine stickleback, and sculpin in the Elwha River.


Keith

I will be dead by 2038 and heaven knows what the world and technology will have advanced to. That said unless a major breakthrough in cold fusion or solar power occurs those dams are not going any place because they are clean energy mitigated for and we must get away from carbon fuels. Electric cars will only add to the pressure on the dams out put I might add.

Secondly there are many major cities ( 10 in a article the other day ) running out of water. Unless a breakthrough in desalination of water comes around CA will in likelyhood be looking for water someplace as they will loose the Colorado source except for Ag. You could look at about a dozen things coming that are big ticket about power and water just the 10 year projection for demand just in the PNW is huge. Changes in the dams? Probably and it will be on the less fish friendly side.

Until power and water technology makes those dams obsolete they ain't going anyplace or going to change. Well that could be wrong they will be driven to be more efficient which is bad news in fishville. Before you think a judge will save the day he won't as the congress and administrative rules can undo his ass in a heart beat.

Got off topic, sorry, but at 62 yrs old I just have trouble with fantasy ville and people failing to recognize the past / present / future are linked. One more time, modern society and salmonids are not compatible, period.

"I think most all are coming down due to their age, the benefits to salmon just help secure funding to pay for it, which lets the owners off the hook"

I do not disagree with that statement.

But now is the time to get the "NO FISHING FOR ANYONE" agreement.
If we give them the funding without some type of guarantee they will never give up their control.

I see in the future at the Pike Place Market a sign that says
"WILD 100lb ELWAH RIVER SALMON"

can you imagine those boys at the fish market trying to throw a 80lb chinook over the counter while a bunch of tourists snap pictures.

Im just saying lets get control over the State and Tribes before we give them the funding.

once again I apologize for my cynicism

I am sure all parties involved have great intentions but in my life experiences great intentions do not always pan out as planned.

Another blurb I just read about the Elwah.......

Post-dam Removal Expectations:
Removing the dams will help to restore some of the salmon runs, but it may take some time for the numbers to increase. In the short term, the dam removal will result in some fish mortalities in the middle and lower parts of the river due to suspended sediments and turbidity from the removal process (NPS 1996). However, most native fish stocks are available for run restoration through hatchery production and recolonization of fish from neighboring rivers.

•In the long term, restoration expectations vary by species:
•Sockeye salmon stocks may be restored in 12-20 years.
•Chinook salmon stocks may be restored in 21-25 years.
•Summer/fall Chinook salmon and winter steelhead have excellent potential for restoration based on available stock (hatchery fish or closely related nearby stocks).
•Coho salmon have good to excellent potential for restoration based on available stock.
•All other stocks-- except for sockeye salmon--have good potential for restoration based on available stock.
•Sockeye salmon restoration is rated as poor to fair potential, because restoration of the run would depend on kokanee populations in Lake Sutherland.


Interesting how they're looking at it......

Keith

Didn't say they were coming down just they come up for relicensing. Will Bonneville pass the test for another fifty right now I would say yes but one good crack in the concrete and you can bet the BPA will be looking for funding to help save salmon by getting rid of the (Dam Thing). Of course then there's Grand Coulee in 2042 but by then if I'm still around my biggest concern will probaly be who's going to change my diaper..Hope it's one of my kids, paybacks are a bitch.

Yeah know what you mean. Was not whacking at you just irritated I guess. You know it is kinda like the fish has met his enemy and we are it! Wish it was not so................but I am not going to change the world and neither will you is my guess but if you give more back than you take then you can meet the end with a clear conscience. Doable for me I hope.