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#654388 - 01/15/11 02:44 PM No Hood Canal Steelhead
coondog Offline
Parr

Registered: 01/25/06
Posts: 45
Loc: mason county
I did not realize how bad the Steelheading had gotten on Hood Canal until I looked in the game pamphlet regarding what is open for steelhead, there isn't anything, from the Quilcence all around to the Dewatto nothing is open after December 15. All the great days I used to have on the Skok, Duck, Hamma Hamma are probably gone forever, even Goldsbough Crk not open. It was a great little stream with good access and lots of fish, both salmon and steelhead. After tearing out the dam and destroying the pretty little canyon it was then closed. The Hamma Hamma you could go up into the canyon and see maybe 50 to 100 steelhead lying in the deep holes, can't help think what a place it would have been for floating jigs in the deep holes and also in the Duckabush and Dosewalips. When I came to Shelton 40 plus years ago and got to know some locals they raved about how good the fishing was for cutthroat and steelhead in the rivers and most of the larger creeks. To see it destroyed in my life time makes me SICK, its too bad the younger fisherman will never experience those kind of days, most of them only know the Skok snag fest, which is a disgrace to real fishing, and yes I do fish there because I like to fish and its close. I know a lot of you only want wild fish in the streams but if they are wiped out what are you going to do, with all the netting in Hood Canal too many seals and hundreds of fish ducks and cormerants I do not see a quick recoverery with out getting some help, even if it does meen planting fish. Working as a surveyor I have seen hundreds of small streams that should be full of spawning fish but have nothing. With nets in the esturerys those fish which are headed for the little creeks will get wiped out. Rivers like the Skok, Duck, Dosewallips and the Hanma Hamma have miles of spawning water going to waste, even if it was catch and release only, I for one just want to be able to fish and with retirement coming up this year, I don't have to wait for the weekends I can pick the prime time, no fish will be safe.
Sorry about the long post but I'm bored, tied my jigs made some floats, sorted fishing gear, feel like going out and fishing for the Koi in the back yard for fun.
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#654402 - 01/15/11 04:06 PM Re: No Hood Canal Steelhead [Re: ]
stonefish Offline
King of the Beach

Registered: 12/11/02
Posts: 5206
Loc: Carkeek Park
The way some folks abused those streams certainly didn't help.
I remember a game agent back in the late 70's telling us about a guy he busted on a Hood Canal stream with 12 steelhead in his possession.
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#654409 - 01/15/11 04:32 PM Re: No Hood Canal Steelhead [Re: stonefish]
Dan S. Offline
It all boils down to this - I'm right, everyone else is wrong, and anyone who disputes this is clearly a dumbfuck.

Registered: 03/07/99
Posts: 17149
Loc: SE Olympia, WA
I caught my first steelhead in Mill Creek, and used to spend lots of time on it, Goldsborough, Kennedy creek, the Skok, the Hamma Hamma, the Dosey and the Duckabush.

I agree that it's a crying shame what has happened to all of them.

Our fish and game managers are a disgrace.
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I said "baby, what's the goin' price?" She told me to go to hell.

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#654432 - 01/15/11 06:06 PM Re: No Hood Canal Steelhead [Re: Dan S.]
Dave Vedder Offline
Reverend Tarpones

Registered: 10/09/02
Posts: 8587
Loc: West Duvall
I was raised in that area and agree they have been "managed" into oblivion. Back in the 60s, yeah I know I'm dating myself anyone with the ambition to hike the canyons on those creeks could have a field day on wild steelhead. The coho runs were excellent too. Now it's all gone. Hell they even wiped out the chum run on the Duckabush. It’s a damn shame and much of it was done with the full knowledge they were doing it. Since the habitat on most of those rivers is little changed I have to place most of the blame on harvest. Back in the late 70s, maybe it was early 80s they opened the canal to harvest for both cowboys and Indians. They did it for four years as though they were trying to wipe out the runs. It worked... Of course seals, clear cuts, low oxygen etc. didn’t help. But the Duckabush chum run was quite strong through 2005. Now it’s very nearly extinct.

Many of you will remember John Chamberlin. He wrote a bit and fished those rivers a lot. He's gone now, so are his beloved steelhead. It's a damn shame.


There will never be any meaningful recovery on those small, delicate rivers.
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#654441 - 01/15/11 06:45 PM Re: No Hood Canal Steelhead [Re: Dave Vedder]
bankbum Offline
Spawner

Registered: 05/10/09
Posts: 779
my grandparents have lived on the duckabush sense the early 90's. as a result i have fished the hell out of that river for both chum and steelhead. in the almost 20 years i have fished it the chum run has went from barely being able to see the bottom of the river due to so many fish.......all the way down to barely seeing a single fish in any hole.

as far as steelhead are concerned. i would spend 2 weeks every year during new years over there. i have personally seen a total of 3 steelhead and that was in the early 90's. caught one of them and though it was a trout and turned it loose.

its a has shame what has happend to the canal rivers. the duckabush has some great steelhead water

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#654455 - 01/15/11 07:12 PM Re: No Hood Canal Steelhead [Re: ]
Eric Offline
River Nutrients

Registered: 03/08/99
Posts: 3513
In recent years, they have been capturing wild Hamma Hamma steelhead as a research project to try and kickstart that run again. I believe some new science was being tried and tested to see if it would be viable in helping other Canal rivers. I know they captured some adults for brood but haven't heard much since. Been pretty quiet actually. I'm not sure it was a WDFW project.

Anyone "in the loop" have updates? Salmo?

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#654492 - 01/15/11 08:40 PM Re: No Hood Canal Steelhead [Re: Eric]
McMahon Offline
Spawner

Registered: 05/27/08
Posts: 652
Loc: Bellingham/Socialistic Idaho
If I'm not mistaken, Long Live the Kings was doing some steelhead research in the Hamma Hamma a few years ago, not that I would trust much of the integrity of their findings. 2003 I saw a presentation on it I believe.

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#654554 - 01/15/11 10:14 PM Re: No Hood Canal Steelhead [Re: McMahon]
metaladdiction Offline
Returning Adult

Registered: 02/22/10
Posts: 440
Just spoke with their director yesterday. Looking for an Eagle project for my son. They are waiting to see how the returns come in. About a year or two ago they actually released brood sized fish they had raised from eggs taken from different reds. Only time will tell. I also fished those rivers quite a bit growing up. Especially the Dosi. Unfortunately they can't control what happens outside those river watersheds.

LLTK has 2 hatcheries one in Lilliwaup and the other I believe is on Orcas. I will be in contact with the Lilliwaup director this next week concerning putting in some service time either at the hatchery or field work on some of these rivers of discussion. Will update as I get info.


Edited by metaladdiction (01/15/11 10:22 PM)

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#654562 - 01/15/11 10:26 PM Re: No Hood Canal Steelhead [Re: metaladdiction]
OncyT Offline
Spawner

Registered: 02/06/08
Posts: 506
There is a collaborative project involving NOAA, USFWS, USFS, WDFW, Skokomish Tribe, Port Gamble Tribe, Point No Point Treaty Council, Hood Canal Salmon Enhancement Group and Long Live the Kings. The principle investigator is Dr. Barry Berejikian from NOAA. Intervention with artificial production in multiple streams and allowing multiple other streams to serve as controls. The Long Live the Kings (LLTK) website has a pretty good description of the project, but probably heavy on the LLTK importance. It's been going on since 2007, so there must be a progress report or two around. If you're interested, I'd contact Barry and see what he has. He's a sharp fellow.

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#654641 - 01/16/11 12:10 AM Re: No Hood Canal Steelhead [Re: OncyT]
Salmo g. Offline
River Nutrients

Registered: 03/08/99
Posts: 13523
The HC steelhead recovery program that OncyT mentions is working on the Hamma Hamma, Duckabush, and SF Skokomish Rivers. The NF Skokomish well be added in a few years as additional facilities are developed as part of the Cushman Dams mitigation. Whether these actions will recover HC steelhead isn't known, but it represents the last best chance to do so that we know of.

Sg

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#654645 - 01/16/11 12:26 AM Re: No Hood Canal Steelhead [Re: Salmo g.]
Lucky Louie Offline
Carcass

Registered: 11/30/09
Posts: 2286
I enjoyed fishing some of the Hood Canal Rivers as well in my younger years. It really is a shame so see the condition they are in today.

This harvest plan should answer some of the questions on here.

http://www.pnptc.org/PNPTC_Web_data/Publ...ment%20Plan.pdf

This has an escapement chart and last plant date chart of Hood Canal rivers. Hood Canal rivers haven’t been planted ranging from 6 to 20 years on hatchery winter steelhead and the last summer plant was in 1981. Even though these rivers haven’t had hatchery plants the escapements are about the same as in the last year that they were planted.
There is a hatchery supplementation program started on a handful of these rivers to see if they can give them a jump start like OncyT and Salmo G said.
Habitat restoration is ongoing.
It would be nice to see these rivers productive again if possible.
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No you can’t have my rights---I’m still using them





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#654651 - 01/16/11 01:06 AM Re: No Hood Canal Steelhead [Re: Lucky Louie]
Moravec Offline


Registered: 03/27/08
Posts: 1045
Loc: Snoqualmie WA/Cordova AK
While I'm a yungen compared to anyone who's actually seen decent steelhead fishing in these waters...I remember my first camping trip to the Dosey in '98, back when I was a junior in high school before I even owned a fishin' pole.

It was August, we were camping there for a few days. My buddy and I hiked up from the 101 bridge and spooked about 4 summer steelhead in a gin-clear run. The thrill of that moment (to any kid who's never even seen a fish that big, let alone caught one!) was cemented in my memory. It was to that moment I can blame my passionate obession with those finned critters. I spend many days shortly after that scouting the Hamma, Duck, Dosey for fish. I

wish someone in power would have the balls to do something productive for these runs.
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#654660 - 01/16/11 01:37 AM Re: No Hood Canal Steelhead [Re: Moravec]
gilly Offline
Hazmat

Registered: 04/27/04
Posts: 923
Loc: on the river
I have noticed a pretty good commercial effort over on the north side of Port Gamble bay. Apparently local tribes are fishing steelhead in this area from late November-mid March. I have not noticed the effort in the past, maybe just missed it maybe less boats. I wonder if this is an increased effort, result from sport closure?

matt
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#654871 - 01/16/11 04:47 PM Re: No Hood Canal Steelhead [Re: gilly]
FireFish Offline
Fry

Registered: 12/03/06
Posts: 31
Loc: Puyallup
A Hood Canal Discussion is on the Radar as we continue to go down the road in the NWwildcountry Studio, on our Segment, "The Rise & Fall of Puget Sound Steelhead". Dr. Barry Berejikian , is my point of contact to get an in-depth look on the status of Hood Canal and the research and work that has been done there over the past few years. He will also help us to understand what those doing research understand thus far, as to what is perhaps happening to our Steelhead Smolt in Puget Sound. We will hopefully have this component in a couple weeks. This next Saturday we hope to reach out to a few folks involved in the research and information available in regards to the Skagit and Sauk system. Again, another very fragile situation that is worth discussing. If you have followed the show at all, we are breaking it down, Puget Sound Basin, by Basin to bring out the research and information specific to each system. We are gathering data and speaking with those responsible for the research to educate our listeners and viewers as to what is going on and to this date what Fisheries Managers and Bio's, do and do not know about Puget Sound Steelhead.
Tune in every Saturday morning and travel this educational journey with us. www.950KJR.com click the listen live button. You can also see us on Comcastsportsnet channel 179 or 37 down in the Portland area. You can also get caught up on past discussions on this topic and more at www.950KJR.com click the On Demand Menu, Click NWwilcountry and find the title or date you are looking for.

FireFish...


Edited by FireFish (01/16/11 04:50 PM)
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#654873 - 01/16/11 05:03 PM Re: No Hood Canal Steelhead [Re: coondog]
RICH G
Unregistered


Since the early 90's before I moved out to Forks in 99 I spent a good amount of time in the Union Dewato and Tahuya rivers. Caught a few winter and summer fish here and there never too many but a few. Were very strong runs of silvers and the chums were thick every year.

I live out here now and see these rivers every day. A couple of years ago I noticed that the salmon runs just up and stopped comming, no silvers and almost no chums. One year they are thick like every year and the next they are almost completely gone. I see the Hood Canal salmon people from time to time and I talk to them. Last year there was an outright colapse in the coho and fall chum runs they have no idea why.

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#654886 - 01/16/11 05:44 PM Re: No Hood Canal Steelhead [Re: ]
ned Offline
Spawner

Registered: 06/09/07
Posts: 666
Loc: MA 5, 9, 10


Coho were non-existant last year. I believe are no "native" fish in the previously mentioned rivers. Why? Brood stock was taken from other systems years ago, and transported to the Hood Canal rivers. In addition, hatchery rivers like the Quilcene had large numbers of fish go past the hatchery and interbreed with native fish, so most fish you'll see with fins should really be clipped had they gone the where they were supposed to. Add logging in the lower canal rivers 100 years ago, nets, etc, then wonder "How much $$ will it take to restore a bastardized fish run, vs. how much to just give up the ghost and pump out as many harvestable/hatchery fish the hatcheries can produce.

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#654894 - 01/16/11 06:02 PM Re: No Hood Canal Steelhead [Re: ned]
Carcassman Offline
River Nutrients

Registered: 11/21/07
Posts: 7431
Loc: Olema,California,Planet Earth
Recovery of steelhead won't occur, I believe, until the number of salmon spawning in those streams drastically increases. They (SH) are showing a positive response to the big pink ecapements in S Prairie Creek.

In the absence of a lot of salmon, and the increase in productivity, steelhead smolts will get older (see Keogh R, BC) and fewer in number.

I believe, too, that this will lead to more "resident" trout. Also, in the major river systems where we are setting new flow regimes to improve spawning and rearing area in summer and fall we are actually making the streams more desireable for the resident life form. Studies on the east side suggest that "higher" flows and "cooler" water temperatures select for the resident form. Enhancing flows in the late summer/fall will come from the bottom of the reservoir.

As long as we view and manage steelhead as independent of the other fish in the stream and view resident and anadromous O. mykiss as different fish I don't think the anadromous form has a chance to recover.

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#654902 - 01/16/11 06:23 PM Re: No Hood Canal Steelhead [Re: Carcassman]
fishbadger Offline
Repeat Spawner

Registered: 03/06/01
Posts: 1195
Loc: Gig Harbor, WA
Originally Posted By: Carcassman
As long as we view and manage steelhead as independent of the other fish in the stream and view resident and anadromous O. mykiss as different fish I don't think the anadromous form has a chance to recover.



I've never really thought about the discussion framed like that before, but I bet you are onto something,

fb
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#655220 - 01/17/11 04:09 PM Re: No Hood Canal Steelhead [Re: fishbadger]
Hair Offline
Parr

Registered: 03/26/10
Posts: 46
Loc: Extremley Rightwing
Here's BPA's 2003 assessment. LINK


CONCLUSIONS

1. Fish from old hatchery stock consistently have very low fitness (usually less than 50%
that of wild fish) when breeding in the wild. The fact that Hold x W crosses consistently
produce fewer offspring than W x W crosses (Table 4) suggests that having Hold breeders
in a system might lower the fitness of the wild population. Whether the surviving wildborn
offspring of such crosses re-establish “wild” levels of fitness after one full
generation of selection in nature remains to be tested.

2. Fish from new, conservation hatchery stock have fitness that is about equal to that of
wild fish (less than wild in two years, greater than in the third year). The same pattern is
apparent whether one examines the relative fitness of individual parents or that of pairs
that left at least one offspring. The similar fitnesses Hnew x W and W x W pairs, suggests
that having Hnew fish in the system is probably not obviously dragging down the fitness of
the wild population for genetic reasons (as might have been expected under some models;
e.g. Lynch and O’Hely, 2001). Thus, the conservation hatchery program appears to have
added a demographic boost to the population without having obvious negative genetic
consequences - at least in regards the effects of domestication selection and mutation
accumulation that should occur in the hatchery. We have not yet conducted a formal
analysis of the effect of the hatchery program on the effective size of the wild population
(e.g. Ryman et al., 1995), but the high levels of microsatellite diversity we still observe in
both runs suggest that reduced effective size is not a problem.

3. The surprisingly large number of missing parents, and the fact that most missing
parents are fathers (Fig. 3), suggests that precocious parr or resident trout are obtaining
matings that produce anadromous offspring. Alternate explanations for offspring that
lack both parents include a large number of unclipped hatchery fish or wild strays
entering the system.


Future Work

We hope to continue genotyping fish through the rest of this decade. Additional
questions we plan to address include:

(1) Do F1 progeny (born in the wild) of Hnew x W, Hnew x Hnew and W x W winter run
parents differ in their production of F2 progeny?
We know from our current analyses that all three types of matings occur on the spawning
ground, and that all three types of mating produce offspring that return to spawn as
adults. F2 offspring of those winter F1s that spawned in the late 1990s are now returning
(see Fig. 2). If we continue sampling through the end of the decade we will have a large
number of returned F2s from multiple brood years with which to test the relative fitness
of different types of F1s (Fig. 2). Given the apparently high fitness of Hnew hatchery fish,
our expectation is that the three types of wild-born F2’s will have similar fitnesses
.
(2) Selection to maintain the difference between summer and winter runs:
What is the rate of hybridization between the runs? What are the phenotypes (run time,
size, freshwater residency) and actual fitnesses of any hybrids?

(3) Selection on measurable phenotypic traits:
We can use standard selection gradient analysis (Lande and Arnold, 1983) to analyze
fitness as a function of body size, run time, age and freshwater residency (known from
scales), after controlling for hatchery/wild genetic background.

(4) Quantitative genetic parameter estimation:
From our pedigrees we can estimate the heritabilities of, and genetic correlations among
any measurable phenotypic traits. We can also estimate the average breeding value for
each trait in individuals of HxH and WxW genetic background, in order to test whether
genetic changes in the hatchery, and subsequent mating with wild fish, could be changing
phenotypic distributions in the wild population (Ford, 2001).

(5) Parental contributions of resident, non-anadromous fish
We sample all potential breeding adults passed over the dam, and we know from our
ground truthing experiments the expected rate of mismatching owing to experimental
error. Therefore, unassigned offspring are either wild strays from out of the basin, or
were parented by resident fish (non-anadromous O. mykiss, or precocious parr). We will
use likelihood methods (Rannala and Mountain, 1997) to attempt to determine the most
likely source of missing parents (of offspring that only match to a single known parent),
and whether fish lacking both parents are most likely to be Hood River wild, Hood River
hatchery (unclipped) or immigrants from adjacent steelhead populations. Because we
sample all anadromous parents, the Hood River is an ideal system in which to ask
questions about the rate of parentage from resident fish and about the sources of those
fish.

(6) Effective size estimation
From the pedigrees we can obtain direct estimates of the effective size (Ne) of each
population over time. These data will be used to estimate the impact of hatchery
programs on the effective size of the wild population and to provide basic parameter
estimates such as the variance in family sizes (number of returning adults) for hatchery
broodstock, for H fish in the wild, and for W fish in the wild. These are important
parameters that are unknown for most populations and can be very useful for estimating
Ne and the effects of supplementation in other steelhead populations (e.g. sensu Ryman et
al., 1995). We can also use our system to evaluate the accuracy of indirect methods for
estimating effective size (e.g. Waples, 2002; Anderson et al., 2000). If the indirect
methods give very different values from the pedigree-based estimates, then we can ask
what assumptions of the indirect methods cause the difference. Note that because of our
ability to sample all potential anadromous parents, we can take into account the
contributions of non-anadromous, resident fish in our calculations.



Edited by Hair (01/17/11 04:30 PM)

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#655235 - 01/17/11 04:45 PM Re: No Hood Canal Steelhead [Re: Hair]
OncyT Offline
Spawner

Registered: 02/06/08
Posts: 506
Hair, you need to look up the later publications of Araki and Blouin (the author of this report). Their conclusions with much more information than the initial report are not as positive. They also are not as negative as some folks on this board will suggest, but the general conclusion is that there is a significant loss of reproductive success (when at least one of the spawning pair is a hatchery fish) with hatchery steelhead programs, even when broodstock is collected from natural-origin steelhead (called Hatcherynew in this publication).

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