http://judgepedia.org/index.php/James_Redden



Time is something Judge Redden dosen't have alot of and I'm sure the opposing forces are well aware of this.

If it does come to this justification will be the key issue, if you look at several aspects of this issue like economic gain, energy potential and the real cost of operating these four dams, it will become clear that they in fact don't make economic sense.

BPA's claims for justification will not stand up to close examination, the Governments own RAND Study clearly shows just the opposite of what BPA is saying.
In order to over turn the ESA and a Federal Judges decision there needs to a preponderance of evidence that says the decision was wrong.
I just don't see that evidence.

Aunty M - The folks I mentioned in my post are the only ones who CAN introduce a bill in Congress, because they are Congressional representatives. To be clear, I was referring to Doc Hastings, Chair of the Natural Resources Committee in the House, and a strong opponet of dam breaching. Senators Patty Murray and Maria Cantwell are well known on the Senate side.

I was not referring to the God Squad. The God Squad is a non-starter since NMFS has NOT said that Pacific salmon cannot avoid jeopardy (extinction) on the Columbia. In fact, they've said the opposite. Extinction can be avoided if we follow their plan (biological opinion). Even if Judge Redden tosses out the plan, it doesn't mean it goes to the GS. That just means they need a better plan. It would only go to the GS if NMFS determines that extinction is likely, regardless of the plan.

The issue is getting far beyond salmon now, it's a whole ecosystem that was based on 10's of millions of salmon providing a food source to 87+ different species that relied on them.

Salmo G
Aunty M
Parker
Eyefish
KK
Big Stick

To name a few....

Keith

RD - Sure. There are six members of the Endangered Species Committee, also known as the God Squad, plus one from each affected State.

The chair would be the Secretary of the Interior, currently Ken Salazar

Sec of Agriculture - Tom Vilsack

Sec of the Army - General Terrance Salt (nicknamed 'Rock')

Chair of the Council of Economic advisors - Austan Goolsbee (whoever he is)

Admin of EPA - Lisa Jackson

Admin of NOAA - Dr. Jane Lubchenko (the one and only.....)

One member from each affected State. For the Columbia Rv, that would be four reps (OR, WA, ID, MT). The State govs pick'em.

So, for the Columbia Rv, there may be as many as 10 members. Decisions are made by majority vote. Not sure what would happen with a tie vote, but a 5-5 split is not a majority.

None of this is relavant since this ain't a God Squad issue......

Aunty and I agree with you, and wondering why they listed them in the first place if there never was anyway or intent to bring them back. I notice American Bison isn't being propsed for ESA listing even though it's numbers are a fraction of historic levels. Manatee's in South Florida are listed but instead of making the hard choices that would have POed the wealthy homeowners they just built special vets offices to handle the propellar cuts from the yachts and powerboats.

I really doubt there's anything Wild left above dam #8, now they're called Natural which is short for (yo mama was a hatchery fish).

Aunty - We agree that this points to a less favorable outcome for wild Pacific salmon.

And I didn't mean to suggest that Congress will 'fix' the problem. Their intent would be to cement into place the plan that is currently being reviewed by Judge Redden (if he tosses it out). Legislative action would completely cancel anything related to ESA. In other words, if Congress passed legislation that stated the current Federal hydropower biological opinion for the Columbia is sufficient to satisfy the ESA, the game is over. That trumps everything. Except of course, extinction.

I would invite Salmo g or Todd or Smalma to add their perspective.

There are several folks in Montana and Idaho who are trying to do that with wolves. They're trying to pass a bill in Congress that says wolves in those two States are completely recovered and are now de-listed (that is, they no longer require the protections in the ESA). If that passes, wolves in those two States are no longer on the ESA list. My point was that similar legislation is possible on the Columbia if Judge Redden tosses out the latest plan.

Exceptions Granted By The "God Squad"

Proposed federal agency actions that have been determined to cause "jeopardy" to any listed species may receive an exemption from the ESA if five members of the federal "Endangered Species Committee," also known as the "God Squad," determine that the action is of regional or national significance, that the benefits of the action clearly outweigh the benefits of conserving the species and that there are no reasonable and prudent alternatives to the action.

The God Squad is comprised of seven members: the Secretary of Agriculture, the Secretary of the Army, the Secretary of the Interior, the Chairman of the Council of Economic Advisors, the Administrator of the National Oceanic and Atmospheric Administration and one individual from the affected state. The God Squad has been convened only a handful of times.

If the Spotted Owl didn't trigger any action from the God Squad, then how can removing four dams with the annual output of 950MW and providing just slightly less transportation costs, be considered "great jeopardy"?
Add on the governments own RAND study which states the region would be better off economically if the dams were removed.
This whole issue is nothing more than a house of cards created by the politicians, bureaucrats and special interests.

For those interested in some facts here's the RAND Study and it's conclusions indicating dam removal as the best option for the region.

http://www.rand.org/pubs/monograph_reports/MR1604/MR1604.appb.pdf

it`s all about money

Agreed, however in a democracy there is room for change, accepting status quo only enables those who stand in the way of recovery.
The state of Oregon now has a sitting Governor who favors dam removal, it also has a sitting US Senator, Jeff Merkley who is open to the suggestion of dam removal as a means toward recovery.
The more people who understand this issue the better off the fish will ultimately be.
Accepting failure isn't an option.

Just turn on CSPAN to find out how much money the Feds don't have right now. Pretty heated debates on Capital Hill going on right now.

Actually, the God Squad WAS convined in 1991 to address the northern spotted owl. The issue was whether the Forest Service and the BLM could move ahead with 44 timber sales (large, old growth Doug Fir). The U.S. Fish and Wildlife Service said that if FS/BLM goes ahead with those timber sales, recovery of the spotted owl was not likely to occur.

The God Squad approved the ESA waiver (chair was Interior Secretary Manual Luhan), with the stipulation that Forest Service and BLM had to also implement the Spotted Owl Recovery Plan. While FS and BLM were contemplating that oxymoron (we'll allow the owl to go extinct, but you have to implement the recovery plan), Bill Clinton got elected. His Interior Secretary (Bruce Babbitt) srapped the 44 timber sales entirely, so the proposed action never went forward. And the spotted owl recovery plan was never implemented. The Northwest Forest Plan was supposed to do that, but it never really accomplished what it was intended to do.

That was the last time the GS was conviened. I don't expect it to happen again anytime soon.

If extinction does occur the Federal government will be on the hook for $30 billion in restitution to the stakeholders.

It's nice to see that this thread has taken an upswing. At least Freespool and Aunty M are on the same side of the road and just arguing about which lane is open to drive in. Progress comes by the inch on complex issues.

Regarding Doc Hastings introducing a bill allowing certain ESA exemptions, Congress is a strange animal, inhabited by even stranger animals (congressmen). Any Congressman can introduce any bill to do anything he would like done, no matter how crazy. The Constitution and the institution allows itself that prerogative. Passing a bill is another matter, and then if it's questionable, the court system tries and then rules on its Constitutionality. I don't know how this would play out, but generally speaking, Americans like the ESA (conceptually). Therefore it's unlikely that Congress would gut it, altho many in Congress appear as though they want to.

Whatever the outcome is, and because of the large list of significant players, the outcome is likely going to be a combination of agency positions, the court sytem, and Congressional action. Not that different than where we are, and for much the same reasons. Because the recovery issue is inherently divisive, and because there is much strength on both sides of the issue, the collective "we" will try to have it both ways. It's possible that Redden will toss out the BO, but I doubt it. It's more likely to be amended than tossed because there is much that is good in it. As he has already done, Redden can order more changes to the BO if he finds that NMFS has not properly followed the letter of the law (ESA).

At that point, it gets sticky, and I don't know what would happen. If the BO as written is likely to allow the FCRPS to jeopardize the continued existence of any listed species (which the system clearly already does by any objective analysis), then Redden could order NMFS to consider and include and analyze the Reasonable and Prudent Alternative of breaching the lower Snake R dams. If the analysis concludes that Snake R dam removal is "reasonable and prudent", that would be the point (IMO) that BPA/Corps/BOR could "elevate" the decision to the God Squad. At that point, science is barely relevant, and it's all about politics. And the track record shows that CEQ (the God Squad) is extremely reluctant to act (see Cohoangler's post above), they and the involved agencies will, once again, come up with some kind of "we can have it both ways" alternative, that on paper saves fish and keeps the FCRPS humming along. And salmon may go extinct.

Freespool,

BTW, extinction has occurred (Snake R coho). BPA/Corps/BOR haven't paid a dime of restitution to anyone as a result as far as I know.

Meanwhile, I truly hope Redden puts his career best work into this coming decision. It could profoundly affect the shape of the outcome, if not the final results.

Sg

http://www.oregonlive.com/pacific-northw...rey_on_elk.html



Here's one way to deal with ESA listings.

With all the hatchery technology available, if a population goes extinct these days it would be because nobody was watching. All you have to do to prevent extinction is to take a few fish into a hatchery. On occasion, let a few spawn in the wild. Presto, chango, no extinction.