I was looking at this post and I couldnt see anything illegal with what the guy was doing... Maybe you guys could help

-----------------------------------------------Date:: 7-6-02
Thanks-to:: Dan

I fished the lake today and caught one rainbow keeper. Seen one man from another country, won't say which country, but anyone that has fished the lake this year will know. Anyway I counted eight fish on his stringer. Three perch, one rainbow keeper and four that were under four inches. This keeps up and there won't be any good ones next year. WHERE IS THE GAME WARDEN??? People have told me that they have called Washington Fish and Wild Life about taking of to many fish but nothing was done. WHY? "Oh well it was good lake to fish."
"PLEASE GIVE THE FISH A CHANCE TO GROW UP."

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I couldnt see anything wrong with the catch, maybe you could help??

I think this part is the illegal part. Minimum size for keeper trout is 8 inches.

It does not say which lake was fished, but I belive that there is no size limit on trout in lakes. It is eight inches in rivers or as listed in the regs.

Jim, you are right. There is no minimum size for lakes, reservoirs, and beaver ponds. Just rivers. That is kind of weird. Why would someone want to keep such a small fish?

I pondered the same question on Jameson lake and others many times Carl.
That September October late season is primarily on spring fry plants that run
anywhere from 41/2" to 7" with a lot at 5-5 1/2".
I guess the answer is "Because they can" and because they don't know any
better place/way to fish.
That fella in the story had a legal limit of trout,but I'd still call it a moral violation.

The bigger question for a lake like Jameson is why the F&G doesen't close it
completely and let that fry plant grow to any size.
Relates to the question of why F&G doesen't close some lakes alternate years
so you baiters can get a less expensive larger trout than stocking pen reared
triploids at great expense.
Makes tooo good a sense I guess.

Here's the violation. He had 5 trout and continued to fish. Didn't make any difference on the size of the trout as size doesn't matter in most lakes.

yeah but it didnt say he kept fishin... i guess if he did keep fishin it is but still.. seems like everyones usin the site to post accusations instead of fishing reports.

As for letting the trout grow... I think there should be a higher keeping size, like 10 inch at least... maybe 12

And there is a problem. I had a reader contact me about the jet ski debate that got mixed into the reports on Clear lake. For me it's a question of what do I edit and what do I leave in? I hate to start taking out parts of what people submit, but if this is becoming an issue with a lot of readers I will. Let me know if it's an issue.
Thanks.

Did you mean all people that fish with bait or are you just generalizing? I hope that your not insinuating that all bait fisherman have no judgement or moral obligation to the sport. Or is it that you feel that your way is the best and only way. Not only do I Fly fish I also use Spoon.s, Spinner's, and lake trolls. I have been fortunate that I don't have to bank fish, not all people are. Anyway I was hoping you weren't trying to slam other folk's method. Take Care.

I agree. There should be a size minimum on lakes. For me, I only keep fish that are at least 15 inches.

Carl,

There used to be a size limit on lakes, but it was removed a couple of years ago. I really don't see a need to go back to it (minimum size).

On westside lakes the minimim size would be governed by the smallest planter size made by the state.

If you are at a lake and catch five trout, you can continue to fish for warmwater fish. Your gear must be consistent with what you are fishing for if you are going to convince an officer that indeed you were not fishing for trout. If you happen to catch a trout and let it go, then no problem.

As far as minimum size, the minimum size of planted trout is generally going to be eight inches. BUT, in cases like some of our waters, fish that are less than eight inches will get planted out as excess fish from the hatcheries.

Cowtliz Hatchery dumps their excess fish into South Lewis County Park Pond and into Swofford Pond. These fish are generally 4-6 inches. Unfortunately they do show up in the catch sometimes and it makes anglers pretty unhappy. Which I understand.

But we either plant them or bury them and its better to plant them out even if it means they are feed for warmwater fish/birds. Some will grow up but most won't make it.

We have a few other lakes that we do this in as well (Lake Sacajawea in Longview).

Our fingerling lakes are closed during winter (Mineral Lake, Swift etc.) to protect the little guys and let them grow up.

I don't know if the above scenario goes for other lakes in the state or not, but it might give you an idea of why there are some little fish that do show up.



stace

Thank You! Stacie for your input. Once again, you have answered some questions I have always wondered about but never thought about asking.

Stacie forgot to consider the fry planted lakes that are left open untill end of
September or even October. By then those fry plants are big enuff to get a gob
of powerbait or a worm/egg in their throats. Thousands are "graded" on Jameson
each fall and I suspect on other lakes too. Most die. Many others end up in the fry
pan at 5-6"...yum,yum,yum. What a waste.
I can understand the removal of the old 6" limit that waz in effect for most lakes.
It does no good to put a limit on the fish size if you allow the lake to be baited
because the baited fish caught stands about a 90% chance of dying anyhow.
The theory is let them keep the 5" fish and you will get less total mortality on the
population. The theory only holds true if there aren't many thoughtless baiters
doing C&R baitfishing (grading) looking for the limit of older,bigger trout.
Hang out at Jameson for a week with your eyes open and you'll understand
what I'm saying.

Our only fry plant waters (down here in Region 5) are our high lakes. The others are fingerling waters which we plant out in July - August.

I asked about that too - fingerlings actually being planted when the lakes were still open - and the response I got was they don't get affected - but honestly, I am not sure how true that is.

Like Fish said, they are big enough to target bait and could easily get caught, in my opinion. It may be that not enough of the population would be affected to make a difference.

For instance, we plant approx. 100,000 fingerlings into Mineral in July and August. The lake closes at the end of September. So for at least two months they can be targeted. But there are still a lot of catchables in the lake. I don't know what percent would/could be affected by angling pressure. I am sure there have been studies done... but I don't know the answer myself.

I'll have to find out why we don't plant out in September. I am sure the answer will have to do with room availability at the hatchery and water issues at the hatchery.

I will let you know what I find out.

Again, the stuff I talk about relates only to the Region I work out of. They could be doing entirely different things in other areas of the state.



stace

arrgh i wish i could argue with you sooo bad Fishn... But I cant. It really is a few baitfishers who make us all look bad...

BBVD. I couldn't agree with you more on what you said about a small amount of people making messes at the lakes and rivers. If everyone carried out their junk. I don't think that we would have any thing to complain about. And then this would be just a fishing site.

But you and I know that this is just not going to happen. Wouldn't it be nice if it did.

Re: Stacies' last post. Isn't in regretable that all the lakes in Region 5 are so degraded
with predatory scrap fish that the most economical plants of all (fry/fingerling plants) can
only be done on high lakes.
You're right it makes no matter if you're only planting keeper sized trout for immediate
availability. And that probably covers most of W. Wash now that nearly all lakes are
trashed with perch, Bass, Crappie,bluegill,tench,Carp,and catfish. The suspension of the
Lake rehab program guarantees that all lakes in W. Wash will be unmanagable like those
in region 5 unless you fishermen go to the public hearings and support/rally for the
program. Our glorius leader of F&G would dearly love to be able to satisfy you with
scrap fish and a small planter dump every year.
OH, FOR THE GOOD OLE DAYS.

As for the situation in E. Wash there are still quite a few lakes that are managed as trout
only waters and planted with a spring fry/fingerling plant. Most or all of them are rich enough
that by September those fat little 5-7" spring fry can get a gob of bait in their throats and THEY
DO in massive numbers on the popular lakes like Jameson ,W. Medical, Blue,Park,etc.
On a few lakes like Wapito they sometimes put in a fall C&R only season to protect spring fry
plants but by and large they seem not to care about the mortality.

Oh, and BTW, the resumption of the lake rehab program on these E. Wash lakes(most of which are now showing degraded fishing due to scrap fish) is not a sure thing thanks to your Director. You anglers must show up at the public hearings soon to come or you can kiss off the good fishing in all the productive waters of E. Wash including the quality waters like Chopaka that the "midnight biologists" stock with smallmouth or other reproductive nightmares.

If you really want to get an eye-opener of which lakes used to be trout lakes vs which ones are still trout lakes, get a copy of Ernie Wolcott's books "Lakes of (Eastern/Western) Washington and check out the old planting data. There is two volumes; Eastern and Western WA.

I was researching some old plant data on certain eastern WA lakes and was surprised to see the state used to stock them and even put Brook Trout in some of the hotter seep lakes.

Thanks for the assist Zen.
I sometimes think when I get the blank stares that
these young whippersnappers really have no idea of what they've already
lost and disbelieve that they will loose the remainder unless they get politically
active and fight for it.
Look at Europe fellas.....Carp and Tench, unless you're
willing and able to fish private waters. Take it or leave it.

Speaking of the Potholes I've gained great insight as to why the fishery in so many
of those lakes is POOOOOOR. F&G can only plant Fry/fingerlings in all those lakes
under jurisdiction of the Feds at the Wildlife Area Offices by agreement with the
Feds. Or at least that's what I'm told.
The motive is likely pure and simple. The Wildlife Reserves customers are Duck hunters and Ducks.
They don't give a damn about the fisherman. They don't have to. The plants are designed to
feed their fish Ducks and mostly they do. The survivors are largely eaten
by scrap fish infestations or unable to compete with the scrap fish.
That part currently you can blame on Koenings.

Is there anyone over there with enuff power and savvy to bring some sense
back into the Fish part of Fish and Game management in Washington?
Or is it too late already and time to migrate to Canada?

heeeeey now hoooold on. Duck hunting lasts from October-November to Jan-Feb usually. That is IT. It's a SHORT season. So what do hunters do when the season isnt on? FISH

I know way to many hunters to let that remark slide. Most are also fisherman. Some are not, but most are.

I mean no offense, but it is not the doing of hunters that those waters are stocked with fry. I REFUSE to believe it.

Curtis

Wasn't taking a crack at Duck Hunters at all Voodoo. Like fishermen Duch Hunters
donations and liscence money are responsible for most of the habitat protection and
recent increase of duck populations we have. Without them it would be much worse
with no one to fight the developers filling in wetlands.
My gripe is with the narrow sighted focus of Federal Wildlife People who demand that F&G
plant fingerlings only, severely limiting management of those waters.

My apologies... I took that ENTIRELY wrong. Sorry bout the confusion

Ron had the right slant on it, but the message was received wrong. The Columbia Wildlife Refuge is managed for ducks and geese. Next year the impact of some of this years changes will be realized. The Hamptons, along with some others are switching from a March 1st opener (which it's been for years) to an April 1st opener. The reason for this.... early ducks returning. Beats me what those early ducks are. Only ones I've seen over there early are mergies and cormorants.

Ducks are also the reason some of the lakes are closed in the middle of the year.

These lakes are on the CWF only.

P.S. Before you think I'm against ducks, I have last years stamp, a bunch of decoys, steel shot and a 3 year old Lab.... and I'm on the refuge forum... but I also pay attention to new proposed rule changes for eastern WA lakes. Next year almost all, if not all, of the CWF is going to an April 1st opener.

The Hampton lakes were always real good just after the ice went off. One time I had a stringer of trout I caught (on a teeny little spinner and an ultralight rod) that the smallest was 1.5 pounds and the biggest was 3.5. Fishing like this was the rule the first couple of weekends.

Well, I don't really consider our lakes unmanageable.

They are classified into three management goals: trout only, warmwater only and mixed species.

The majority of our lakes are mixed species - which means we do a put and take fishery of trout and there is natural production of warmwater fish within the lake. I would say the only lake we manage hard for warmwater only would be Silver Lake (Cowlitz Co.).

Then we have our trout only waters (i.e., Mineral, Swift, Merrill, Coldwater etc.) which despite the fact that there are bass in Mineral we are NOT changing the management to mixed. I would like to see a no bass limit on that lake - but we will see how that goes.

The mixed species management, in my humble little opinion, allows us to do several things.

1. Give anglers a put and take fishery for trout.
2. Give anglers the opportunities for warmwater fishing when trout fishing declines in the warmer months.

As I said above, the majority of our lakes are mixed species. Regardless of whether a person is a warmwater advocate or an anti-warmwater person - these fish are here and they ain't going anywhere. You can rehab a lake for the next hundred years and those fish are going to show right back up!!! Must be those new kind of bass that grow legs and walk from one body of water to the next. But more likely it is the fact that people continue to plant them whereever they feel like it.

So, it is better that we manage them and try to make some sort of fishery out of them - rather than ignore them hoping that they will go away because they just simply aren't going too.

Education is always the best tool. Warmwater fish do not need to be in every single lake in Washington. But I think that we should provide this type of fishery in lakes where they do currently exist. (By exist, I don't mean Joe Angler planting a bunch of bass tomorrow in a trout only lake and saying, hey provide a fishery, there are bass here! Uh, nope. Not gonna work!).

This has been a good debate. Very good points on both sides of the coin. Not an easy answer to find though.

stace

Well maybe we view management differently Stacie.

Let me reiterate my key points.
1) Nearly all lakes in W. Washington that are now "mixed species lakes"were once trout only lakes and managed with fry plants and most provided excellent fishing many even in midsummer. The same can be said for far too many E.Wash lakes that are now Trashed w/perch,bass ,bluegill,etc. These lakes could be MANAGED without the serious bucks needed to plant stockers and triploids in far fewer numbers and fewer lakes.

2) F&G does not HAVE to throw up their hands and claim we now MUST have mostly mixed species lakes simply because some jerk keeps trashing them with perch etc.. They CHOOSE to do it. There is Rotenone Rehabilitation that used to be widely practiced....remember!

3)Spiney Ray species come free, but liscense charges continue to increase....suspicious considering
we now have a Director of F&G who is against the Rotenone program and considering #1. Do I see
a trend here that seems to me to be contrary to the wishes of the majority of fishermen in Wash.
I think so!
4) I watch the "summer fishery" on those mixed species lakes you cite and it is nearly nonexistant
on most lakes. The lake soon becomes out of balance and produces tons of stunted spiney rays
plus the occasional bass of size numbering so few only a few hard core devotees try for them.
Your summer fishermen are newbys wasting their time because they know not where to go to get better or they are kids satisfied to catch anything. What used to be a thriving fall fishery now does
not exist because the small keeper plants are jerked out by June.

Pathetic management from this old timers point of view.

FishnFellaS I do agree. Instead of doing some more important things, like checking stringers and such, managing the fish, etc... The only Game Wardens I've seen have been writing small fines for Access Sewardship decals that fell off or the person had, or just talking to the fisherman, without checking anything at all.

Stacy - I think you have one of the best regions in the state for fishing. I just wish I had a merril and coldwater lake here in King County. Oh, and a Castle Lake would be nice too. And a nice big warmwater lake like Silver would be great for those times I get bored with trout. And then there are the salmon and steelhead runs down there - lewis, cowlitz, kalama, chehalis, just to name a few.

It's a good thing not everyone feels that trout are the only fish worth pursuing. I like choices - and you guys down there have some good ones!

FishnFellas & Big Bad Daddy -

You have some really good points. I give my comments in according to your points.

1. I do our historical database for lake stocking in southwest Washington. The majority of our lakes were indeed planted with trout, but not fry. Catchables from the local hatcheries. So we are operated under the same form as we did in the 40s-50s-60s etc. From the records I have, most warmwater fish have been in these lakes since that time. Our Warmwater Fish of Washington books indicates the warmwater fish must have shown up in the late 1800s. At that time, millions of fish were stocked but not by us.

In fact, interesting piece of trivia here, Battle Ground Lake started out as a warmwater fish lake. But, the bio's felt they weren't doing well, so it was then switched over to planting trout only. Actually the warmwater fish are doing pretty good right now there.

Again, only for my area, it may be entirely different up north of here!

2 - I can't really comment on the rotenone except to say it hasn't been as acceptable on the west side as on the east side - from a public point of view anyway. I know there has still been discussion as to being able to use it, but I am not sure where those discussions have led.

3 - I may be wrong, but I think the fishing license actually went down in price (with the exception of the surcharge fee)a couple of years ago from what they used to be. When we combined everything and stopped charging for the steelhead/food fish licenses.

4 - We do have one lake in particular that has stunted fish. Kress Lake has too many bluegills. But I think we will find that will go down as we have been working on the vegetation problem. But you are correct. There are A LOT of waters out there with unbalanced populations. In fact we sometimes have this problem with trout in our high lakes.

But the summer guys are out there to catch catfish and bass and seem to do pretty good. When I do creel up at Rowland Lake, the guys are out there fishing for bluegills and catching some nice ones. The fishing for trout does become non-existant, no doubt there. But some people do like to target the warmwater fish and know that summertime is the time to do it.

I really do see your points. I can imagine it is frustrating for some of the anglers out there to see some of the changes in our management. I'd say the best thing anglers can do is communicate with their local bios. I am so serious about this it's not even funny. Talk with them about your concerns and questions and suggestions.

We get what I call our 'regulars' that are in constant communication with us about things. Whether it is bull trout in Swift Reservoir, to catfish in Kress Lake, or raising salmon on local farms to re-introduce to streams.

With as well thought out points as you two have, I would think you both would be perfect candidates to work with local bio's on your ideas. And anyone else for that matter. The thing is, if you don't share your concerns with us, we aren't going to know. Don't just go to public meetings, ring us up and ask questions.

Everyone is busy with field work and all the hundred tasks that we have to do in our day, but we serve the public as well and there is always time to be made to hear from you guys.



stace