I don't trust them. (indians) They have refused to follow the rules for years so why would they change now? And, since there is no recourse or punishment that can be levied good luck! They can pull the old "don't clip the fin scam".

Just a few points on steelhead biology, at least as I read of it.

If those hatchery fish don't go to sea as age-1 they have two choices. They can die or live. If they live, next spring they can smolt, die, or live. There are hatchery-steelhead, released as age-1 that smolt as age-2 or 3. And, some of them stay as residents; exactly the same as a wild steelhead does.

I doubt that even if every one of the Chambers fish stayed in freshwater that there would be "millions" in the Elwha. I suspect the program there is in tens of thousands, perhaps up to 100K but I doubt it is that high.

Since one of the knocks on Chambers fish is that they are reproductively incompetant, does anyone believe that a resident Chambers fish suddenly figures reproduction out?

They don't want any WildArse Hen sucking off some illegitimate girlyboy that was raised by a babysitter. Got it?

everyone on this forum should read "mountain in the clouds", by Bruce brown, (1982)

BUISNESS AS USUAL CAN SNUFF ITS SELF OUT. REPETITION OF PROVEN TOXIC HISTORY IS THE PROOF IN THE PUDDING THAT A FEW DOUCHEWAFFLES WILL PROFIT AND THE REGULAR JANE AND JOE TAKE IT IN THE REAR FROM FISH MANAGEMENT TO OUR POLITICAL SYSTEM. UNLESS WE AS A SOCIETY JOIN ARMS AND DEMAND RADICAL CHANGE AND ACCEPT NEGATIVE CONSEQUENCES FOR THE BETTER GOOD OF FUTURE GENERATIONS THIS GOOD OLD HOUSE OF GREED IS GOING TO EEVENTUALLY COME TUMBLIN DOWN, HARD DIRTY AND MESSY. A SOCIETY THAT COMES TOGTHER WORKS TOGETHER AND FORGETS THE I AND ADOPTS THE US WILL PERSEVERE. OTHERWISE ITS A BUNCH OF BALL HOGS SHOOTING BRICKS.

Jackiepoo, I agree.
Steelspanker, my son once asked my why people are stereotyped. I said it's unfortunate but the reason is that the MAJORITY of those stereotyped act in a certain way most of or all of the time. (Like steelheaders!) I would love to be sympathetic but the pattern NEVER changes. Money (lots of money), land and sovereignty have done nothing to help change the pattern or diminish the hate they feel toward us. Over the last 52 years that I’ve fished this state I have watched the lack of progress and the total disregard of any and all rules. The dead and wasted fish, the littering of tribal and public lands, the illegal netting and so much more that makes it really hard to be sympathetic. If it was about just a few ruining it for the rest of them I wouldn’t be writing this but if you’ve done the homework and seen what I’ve seen it would be hard to argue the subject. I don’t hate them I just find it hard to listen to them complain when they do nothing to better their cause and blame us for all of their problems.

When there is a damn elephant in the living room and no one wants to address the problem, you get what we got.

How much anyone want to bet this 'delay' will result in the tribe reneging on the 5 yr fishing moratorium? So they don't plant chambers SH .....but instead go fishing on the returning natural stock.

The tribe's rationale for the chambers stock was it was there to provide treaty harvest without interfering with restoration ( I know it's an oxymoron and has been discussed ad nauseum here). Well now they agree to not plant (maybe per some exit money from a retiring legislator) and instead say, "ok but now we're going to need to harvest some of the returning nates". Seems like a real possible unintended consequence ..... seen this movie before by the way.

There was a study out of Oregon regarding the direct relationship between steelhead and resident rainbows. They determined that they are one and the same and that steelhead were mating with resident trout with some of the offspring staying in the river and some heading out to sea. There was another article some time ago from a former head of the F&W and he said that when native steelhead stocks start declining the fish residualize into rainbows until their numbers get to a certain point and they will then start out sea. The upper Elwha has a fantastic population of native rainbows above what was Lake Mills and there are naturally spawning rainbows in the river between the two lakes. If those studies are correct those resident rainbow will again become steelhead. That is one more reason not to put hatchery fish in that river. If they leave it alone they will have native steelhead in several years.

I have heard this story before and without any supporting "scientific" evidence, I'd guess that it is enormously overblown. Picture, if you will, a wild trout that has not seen an adult salmonid in its lifetime, not eating the eggs.....or battling large bull trout for them. If that doesn't do it for you, picture the amount of jizz a trout can produce and what it's success rate of fertilization would be trying to zap an egg-wagon steelhead. Is there a possibility? I would say yes, but again, the idea that trout-size natives are going to substitute their five decade old lake-bred sperm and produce wild steelhead that were the same as before the dams is ........... hopeful at best.

Steelhead in southern California have been known to be resident through years of drought. Enough water returns and they smolt.

Folks now are regulalry documenting resident males spawning with anadromous females (successfully). In some situations in WA (late in spawning season), the only males that are spawning are resident as the anadromous males have all finished.

Are humans so convinced that we know it all that we know the Elwha residents won't migrate so we have to import fish for recovery. It's been close to century that the dams have been in. We can't wait a reasonable amount of time to see how nature reponds?

More than "not probable"...it's been pretty firmly established everywhere that resident rainbow and steelhead share waters that they are part of one big life history complex.

Fish on...

Todd

Yup, you're right......make that 10 decades.

I just can't comprehend why taking our time is a bad thing. In the case of the Elwha basin, we have everything to gain, and nothing to lose by seeing how this thing plays out naturally...this is probably the only major watershed where we can observe how a resident population might adronom-ize and retain their genetic diversity.

And give up fishing? nah.

Ive seen the video of trout spawning with a hen, underneath a large male.

This really isn't a new observation; it was documented in the 30s/40s. The actual success of the small males, and the resultant production of anadromous progeny, is recent due to the development of the genetic analyses.

There is an article in STS discussing trout spawning with steelhead.
The article was about Hood River in Oregon. Since the river had a dam on it, they were able to get DNA from all fish passed over the dam.
This took place over a 15 year period.
The results of the findings were that on the Hood, 40% of all steelhead genes come from wild trout each generation. Pretty facinating stuff if you asked me.
I know in the past, Smalma has posted some good info regarding this as well.
I 'm sure the interaction between trout and steelies varies based on the river system.
I've read and heard about the interaction for awhile know. I'm no biologist, but I've had a question about this for awhile now that I'm hoping others with more knowledge can answer for me.

Currently, many of the rivers are open to a two trout limit over 14" in the summer. I've caught both non-clipped and clipped bows of that size. I assume that the unclipped fish are wild rainbows and the clipped fish are steelhead plants that have residualized to the river.
So, if wild trout may hold part of the key to helping wild steelhead survive and recover, should we be harvesting these trout?
Thanks for any input you can provide.
SF

That can't possibly be true...SlapHappy, our resident scholar and biologist, said so.



Just kidding...this is well established science, nothing even remotely new or groundbreaking about it.

Fish on...

Todd

Here is some science regarding steelhead and resident rainbow trout interactions as an important component of the life history of wild steelhead.

http://www.wildsalmoncenter.org/pdf/rainbow_trout_mcmillan_etal_2007.pdf