A 7MM?
I had one of those,but sold it to a girl I know. She really liked it,I guess it's not bad for a begginer.

hmmm .284 vs .308 caliber? Maybe im wrong but dont women think bigger is better?

I was giving Bri24 some crap,he's my brother,and he bought my 7MM a couple years back.

The 06 is a bigger caliber,but the 7MM has it beat any way you look at it. More velocity,better sectional density,more energy,flatter trajectory and probably as many bullet weights as the 06.

The 06 and the 7MM are both great all around cartridges,you can't go wrong with either one.

I have both a 7mm nad an 06. I basically only use the 7mm any more. But there isn't anything I wouldn't use the 06 for that I do. It is just my 7mm does things with a littel more umph than the 06. The 06 is a very good all aorund rifle!
Buck

I'm sorry, maybe i should know better that to start this, but how in the heck does a 7 rem mag have more oomph than a 30.06? A 30.06 makes a bigger hole and penatrates deeper than a 7 mag. Contrary to popular "magnum" thoery, penatration goes down, not up, with more velocity.

Sorry to dissapoint you Sean,but your theory is flawed. Yes, a .308 bullet is slightly bigger than a .284,but the .284 will have better sectional density than a .308. What is SD? SD is basically a bullets ability to penetrate,the higher the bullets SD,the more it will penetrate.

Lets use the the Win. Fail Safe load. The 06 with 180gr,will have a SD of .271. The 7MM with 175gr will have a SD of .310. If you start both these out at 3000fps, hit an animal in the same location the .284 will out penetrate the .308. On animals like deer or pronghorns,it won't matter either way,you'll likely shoot right thru either one. step up to elk or moose ,and you'll need more penetration,I'd go with the .284 every time.Even a 160gr 7mm will probably out-penetrate a 180gr 06. SD of a 160gr 7mm is .283.

Your right about the velocity of magnums,only if you are shooting lightweight bullets at close range. Then you have a chance of the bullet "blowing up". The higher the velocity the greater the chances of that happening.Then you get little penetration.

That's the beauty of magnum's. You can load a heavier bullet than a "standard" round and get the same velocity. Heavier bullets and more velocity= more "oomph"

Sorry but your theory is wrong, at least based on actual test data. Mine opinion isnt based on theory of sectional density, its based on actual penatration tests in a wet newpaper medium.

30.06 165 grain swift a frame 2850fps
19.3 inches of penetration
.670 inch diameter wound channel

7 rm mag 160 grain swift a frame(higher sectional density!) 2930fps
12.8 inches penetration
.652 in diameter wound channel

Honestly, i dont think there is really that much difference between these two cartridges, the 30.06 has a slight edge, but either are great for all around deer/elk use. The point i was trying to make is that sectional density and kinetic energy numbers dont always correlate to actual performance.

terminal ballistics

One of the things i like best about the above site is the graphs showing the same bullet hitting the medium at different velocities, and penatration going down as velocity goes up. It also has charts showing wound channel shapes for different velocities and different bullets and calibers. Really a good read. Debunks a lot of popular theories about bullet performance, at least it does for me. It really shows the performance differences between standard bullets and premiums. Takes a long time to get through it all, but its well worth it. It also pretty much agrees with a lot of what i read from professional hunters in africa who witness bullet performance more in one season than most of us have a chance to in a lifetime of hunting here in the states.

Sean,
When was the last time you hunted wet newspaper? Shooting into wet paper is hardly a real world comparison for on game performance. Especially when the impact velocity is almost 3000fps,that # is measured right at the muzzle. I agreed with the fact that an impact speed of that high will negate some of the 7mm's penetration. When was the last time you shot an animal at 1' ?

Until I see a test using a medium other than wet paper,and at ranges out at 1,2,3 or 400yds I'm not buying into that sites testing,although it was pretty extensive.

How about testing more than 3 loads for the 7mm? The 06 was tested with 26 different loads,that's not a real fair comparison.

You like the 06,I like the 7mm. we could go round and round about the pro's and con's of either. Let's call this one a draw.

P.S. the 7mm is way better!

Another thing to add for teh bullet performance in teh balistic coeficient (bc.). On all bullets that I have seen the bc is higher in the .284 bullets. That truns into better down rang eperformance more kenectic energy and with those you get deeper penetartion. I agree there isn't a ton of difference. But if I was to go hunt say Alaska and coose my 7mmm with my hanload 175 gr nosler partitions or and 06. I would take my 7mm any day. Like I said before I have both adn the 7mm does outperform the 06. The 06 is a great cliber though.

Even if i laoded my 06 with 180 nosler partitins. My 7mm with the 175 gr partitions will outperform my 06 hand down. My 7mm pushes those at 2950, and I would be luck to get the 06 to ppush the 180's 2800. therfore with the higher veocity and hige bc the 7mm wins.
Buck

By the way very good info HBP
Buck

HBP,

im glad we are all keepin it friendly. sometimes one guy will get the wrong impression and then it gets nasty, thats not my intention and i can see its not yours either

I know nobody hunts wet newspaper, but for medium to test the penatration fairly between two different rounds i think its fine. Both are shot into the same medium, so the comparison between the two can be made. I agree real animals are different, you may get more or less penatration depending on where it impacts the animal, hits bones, ect. I dont know of any better way to compare two cartridges than this, so i think its fair.

Obviously the guy tested the 30.06 more than 7mm, but i tried to pick a simalar bullet with a realistic velocity spread between the two. And the test was valid for 100, 200, 300, ect yards, because the bullets tested were often at different velocities. The only thing that is different when your bullet hits an animal at 400 yards vs. 10 feet is the velocity. So just pick a 7mm test with the bullet you want and the impact velocity you are interested in. The guy that performed the test tried to make that point, maybe you missed it?

Glad you looked at the site, it opened my eyes to a lot of things i had been questioning, like the real value of "Knockdown" formulas and kinetic energy value, "hydrostatic shock", energy transfer, etc.

Buck,
I think you missed it. Higher velocity does NOT lead to more penatration it leads to less. Sectional density has a a bit to do with it, but its not the whole picture.
sectional density is bullet weight divided by bullet diameter squared

SD = w/(d^2)

So keeping the same bullet weight, going smaller in bullet diameter will lead to a higher sectional density. And make a smaller hole. Where do you draw the line, take a the same weight bullet in 25 caliber, and it will have a much higher sectional density than a 7mm, does that mean it is better? Its not even a linear relationship, going a little smaller in diameter leads to a MUCH bigger sectional density.

Ballistic coeficient has nothing to do with penatration, only retained velocity, which if in the upper range leads to less penatration anyway. The real factors in penatration are bullet construction/deformation/performance and impact velocity. The higher kinetic energy from your bullet is used up, but at the high velocity with violent bullet expansion, lots of that energy is used up in bullet deformation instead damage via the deep wound channel we want.

If you dont want to read the test i gave a link to above and much of the data used was from very well know "experts" such as Rick Jamison, Ross Seyfried, and Finn Aagaard, look in your nosler book for confirmation that with the bullets you and i both prefer, more velocity leads to less penatration.

In Nosler reloading guide #4, it tells of Rick Jamison doing a penatration test with a 165 grain nosler partition out of a 300 win mag and a .308 winchester. The 300 win mag at an impact velocity of 3,111 fps had 16.5 inches of penatration, and the .308 winchester at an impact velocity of 2,460 had 17 inches of penatration. This is with a huge velocity difference, same bullet.

When i go to alaska, im not taking the 7 mag (cuz i sold it, piddly little thing!), or my 30.06 that i really like, ill take my 35 whelen. Same case as the 30.06, lower velocity, lower sectional density, lower ballistic coefficient, no comparison in performance. 250 grain bullet at 2500 fps means more penatration, and much bigger hole, i like that. Course, its all theory as i just got the thing last week, and havent killed anything with it yet. But hey its my new toy and I just have to tell everybody about it! ) You may be better suited than me however, if you are after dall sheep

Sean,
nothin' better than some friendly gun banter. Hunting guns will be the most argued about subject in hunting camps till the end of time. :p

P.S.
I don't even own a 7mm. For deer I shoot a .270,and elk I shoot a .338.

Yeah, your right. But chevy vs. ford vs. toyota is a close second at my camp.

Chevy of course!
I had a friend that brought his Toyota to camp once.After he talked it up,we all just laughed when he had to park it cause the high altitude killed it.

I'm just excited that something finally got this board a little bit active.

Hunters,

Keep on posting.


GS

Sean D,
Ok I looked at the web site today. Man there is a lot of info on that, I wasn't able to read it all. But I have to say if you look at it again and compare the velecities of the 308 win and then the 30/06. firing the ame 165 gr nosler partition. Teh 06 is faster and has more penetration. Unfortunately there weren't many bullets of the same desing tested with other claibers. Some bullets lose performance when speed is increased and some gain. So in my opinion I still say that my faster 7mm penetrates more and has more umph than an 06. I have killed 4 elk with it so far, and I still havent recoverd a nosler bullet from them yet. 2 of them were shot at just under 400 yards through teh front shoulders. The bullets went completely through and knocked them off there feet.

Oh I go with Ford by the way.
Buck

I HAVE A 30'06 SAVAGE, VERY RELIABLE AND ACCURATE, THEN AGAIN SO AM I..LOL, BUT HONESTLY YOU MIGHT WANNA THINK ABOUT GETTING A CUSHIONED PAD FOR WHEN TARGET SHOOTING, ABOUT 13-15 ROUNDS GETS ME PERTY SORE, IT HAS A DECENT KICK, BUT SOMEONE SAID IT HAS LIGHT RECOIL, COMPARED TO WHAT THE .458 OR THE .50 BMG? GO WITH THE 06'YOU WONT BE DISAPOINTED, PLUS YOU CAN GET AMMO CHEAP FOR IT, WWW.CHEAPERTHANDIRT.COM 4.97/BOX OF 150 GRAIN, FULL METAL JACKET..

which type of gun should i get between a savage and a remington?

Both are known for their accuracy,and both will be ok. Savage is on average,a lower priced rifle. Remington is more,because they are on average,"fancier". Personally,I'd get a Savage,and use the money you save on a better scope.

I agree. The savage is ugly to some people because of the barrel nut, and the bolt supposedly feels sloppier. Well the bolt in my remington feels pretty sloppy too. It doesnt really matter though as long as it feeds reliably and locks up tight. I have had both, and i dont think a remington is a "better" gun, but its nicer looking, has a better factory trigger, and i like the safety location better than the savage. If money is tight, id buy the savage on sale for less than $300 and spend the rest on a good leupold scope. I had a savage in 7 rem mag and it the recoil was nasty, not really due to the caliber, but due to a totally insufficient recoil pad. A better recoil pad can always be installed later. I would look at some of these things when you look at the rifles. Pick them up and see what stock feels better to you when you shoulder the rifle. Check out the safety. Lots of people really like the winchester three position safety, i cant stand it. Wal mart should have some buys on a winchester in the same price range as the remington. If it was me id probably buy a remington, maybe waiting until i found a nice used one i really liked, with a good leupold 3x9 or similar already on it if the price was right.