His name is Brad. Ugly Green...

It's completely factual Todd. And I'm far more educated on the subject than some washed out attorney who has no fisheries education and has never worked in fisheries management.

Well that's certainly an informed and educated, not to mention classy post.

It's also just as non-factual as your other one.

Congratulations.

Fish on...

Todd

On measure 81, if you think I am wrong, lets hear the reasons why. If you want to debate the actual issues, why don't you tell me where I am wrong?

Or do you just snipe people behind their backs? (never mind... I already know the answer to that)

Oh snap!

Well Todd you threw the first punch with no proof or facts provided like usual.

A debate between you two would be a great idea and you would be able to prove how brilliant ignorant you really are.

I agree that knowledge is needed to be able to twist it to his particular bias and then type volumes to try to make it stick. Which is all good and well until you are called out by someone like Anglers Rental that wants to debate

OMG specific FACTS.

I'd be happy to here in a little bit...I'll go thru your fanstasy post when I have a little more time.

In the meantime I'll let you know that I have a degree in Marine Biology, worked as a biologist, went back to school and got a law degree with an emphasis in environmnetal law, and worked for the WA State Attorney General's Office as Assistant Attorney General, representing the Department of Fish and Wildlife. I've also been on the board of directors of several fisheries groupls, and served two years on the Washington State Steelhead and Cutthroat Advisory Group.

I've also been working on Columbia River issues for about 20 years, before, during, and after all of that stuff.

Care to share your biography as a boat renter?

Fish on...

Todd

Hey I'll talk to you UG as someone who gillnets the Oregon Inland Waters and has spent almost 35 years in various commercial fisheries including Pollock Whiting Crab Salmon (Troll/Gillnet) Sardine Squid and a few others. I've also spent the last few years getting drug into the anti-LNG movement, I will say I was somewhat for it in the beginning because I'm not antijob but have completely switched sides now that I get a better look at it and the class of people that this industry attracts..First problem I have with your posts are that the terminals don't pay for themselves can you provide data that shows any hatchery program that does?

I'll be the first to admit that I know very little about the specifics of some of the fisheries issues on the Columbia and while I have some experience with fish management issues in other areas of Washington the number of mistakes atributed to me over the years probably brings into question my expertise regarding fish and fish management. However that has never stopped me from throwing in my two cents in this kinds of discussions so I'll take a quick stab at the issues that AnglerRentals and Todd have been circling around.

Let's start with very little is actually "known" about savings with a shift in gear type for the commerical fishers. There certainly is some potential for savings along the lines suggested by AnglerRentals but whether those are realized will depend on the details of how the fisheries are implemented and the choices made by managers. It is not a given that current harvests and ESA impacts by the commerical fleet will remain constant; in fact it would hardly be a surprise to see an increase with a gear shift though ultimately that remains an unknown

In addition it has long been the case that if a user groups leaves some ESA impacts on the table there has always been one or more other users that are more than willing to step up to the table for an increased piece of the pie resulting in all the impacts (dead fish)being used.

To some of the specifics for each of the mentioned species.

1) Spring Chinook -
I agree whole heartly that seal and sea lion predation and robbing of gear is a significant issue that needs to be addresses and those mortalities included in the overall ESA impacts. Without a doubt those critters rob the gill nets just as they do the fish caught on hook and line. Does anyone really think that given how smart and adaptable the seals and sea lions have proven to be that they will not quickly learn to take advantage of the seines? The degree that seal and sea lion gear robbing with be reduced with the use of seines is an unknown and benefits may only be short term.

2) Summer Chinook -
The potential of a selective fishery using seines would certianly be on the table however it is an unknown at this time whether the managers would force such a fishery or not. In addition even with a selective seine fishery the degree of savings will be influenced by whether the commerical fishery is given an increased harvest/allocation or not.

3) Steelhead -
As i recall that large steelhead catch in 2002 was because the netting took place early in the season when the ratio ofwild steelhead to Chinook was high. In recent years the commerical fleet has delayed their fisheries in order to not use up their steelhead impacts too quickly. With seines they would have the option of once again fishing earlier (better Chinook prices) and how much savings would occur with the gear shift will depend on the timing of the new fisheries, the number of steelhead handled and the mortality of those handled. In short the benefits are once again an unknown though the potential is there for reduced impacts.

4)Sockeye-
Again any savings with a gear shift is largely unknown. The sockeye are much smaller than the Chinook and gill nets designed to capture Chinook are inefficient in catching sockeye. That would not be the case with a seine. We can expect that it is likely that with use of seines in a summer Chinook fishery a significant increase in sockeye handle will occur and whether there is a savings will depend on the specifics (numbers caught, mortalties of released fish, etc).

Coho and chum -
This may be the best area for some saving with a gear shift but at least to my mind it remains unclear (unknown) whether the managers would force such a change and if so to what degree. Those decisions will likley depend on the particulars of each fishery (for example whether in a safe area or not, relative abundances of hatchery and wild fish, locations, timing , etc).

7) Tules-
While the experience fisher could separate most tules from other Chinook I'm sure that either the managers or the fishers would be willing to rely on such a requirement - it would create and interesting enforcement question.

Finally sturgeon -
With the current management paradigm there are harvestable sturgeon and some one is going to catch those fish and the comerical fleet will likely continue to get their "share".

As I state up front I may be off base with some or all of the above so feel free to flame away.

Tight lines
Curt

") Spring Chinook -
I agree whole heartly that seal and sea lion predation and robbing of gear is a significant issue that needs to be addresses and those mortalities included in the overall ESA impacts. Without a doubt those critters rob the gill nets just as they do the fish caught on hook and line. Does anyone really think that given how smart and adaptable the seals and sea lions have proven to be that they will not quickly learn to take advantage of the seines? The degree that seal and sea lion gear robbing with be reduced with the use of seines is an unknown and benefits may only be short term."



I worked on the NOAA Sealion Study last year 2- 6 hour openers aren't even worth bringing into the arguement, and it's just making the assumption that if the nets aren't there the sealions would stop eating..

Sure Todd,

I have a Masters Degree in Fisheries Science, with a focus on salmon and steelhead ecology, worked as a biologist for various federal agencies in Oregon and Alaska for many years, wrote most of the protocols used by Region 6 of the USDA Forest Service for stream inventory and monitoring, retired, went back to school and earned an MBA, and now consult occasionally for CRITFC on Columbia Basin fisheries economic issues, have served on the boards of various fisheries groups and as an advisor to the PFMC. Plus I rent boats...

I apologize for the inaccuries in my previous post, I was misinformed by one of your fans. I will have to think up some more accurate insults.

So lets hear what you think was incorrect in what I wrote in response to the gill netters claim that Measure 81 "won't save a single fish... not even one"

This is turning into a right fine pissin contest, who's up?


Fishy

I think it's pretty well proven that the vast majority of hatchery production is paid for by sport fishers by both direct sales of angleing licenses and indirectly from money that originates from federal excise taxes on sporting goods and gear. Although there are innumerable ways to slice and dice agency budgets and funding to prove pretty much anything anyone wants to, it is a known fact that the select area fisheries operate at a negative net economic value, meaning that the dockside value of the fish sold is less than the cost to produce them. When you combine that with the relativly small (a few hundred) gillnetters that directly benefit, I personally think it's a bad program, and not one we should double down on.

Yes, there are secondary local economic benefits to the program, but those only come at a loss of economic benefit elsewhare in the region. It's a zero sum equation. There is no net gain, somebody else (a whole lot of somebody elses) have to suffer an economic loss for a relative few to get an economic win. And that small win is only at the cost of impeding the recovery of several ESA-listed stocks of fish that we are litterally spending billions of dollars to try and save. Seems dumb to me, especially when changing to live capture seine nettting from gill nets would dramatically reduce the harm caused.

It's not a popular opinion, I know.

Well, if I read that correctly, it looks like CCA et al. are walking away from Measure 81 and signing on to the Kitzhaber Proposal.

So by closing CEDC programs which is what this measure will do and the Governor and ODFW agrees, what exactly do you plan on replacing the lost revenue to the county with?

Wouldn't call it walking away.

The campaign is simply supporting the common elements in Kitz' plan... namely removing mainstem gillnets.

The initiative has a life of its own now. Regardless of how the Kitz plan fares, it's "the folks" who will decide if gillnets will persist in the commercial fishery at all.

Pisser for the gillnet crowd.

Nope I don't read it that way and since you were unaware of this release apparently UG isn't far enough up the ladder to know whats CCA's policy is along with a whole bunch of other experts..Priceless

Here I fixed it for you

I don't believe I ever claimed to know what CCA's policy was/is recently. I resigned from their GRC over two years ago.