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#1058417 - 12/18/21 11:05 AM Re: FISHINGTHECHEHALIS.NET *** [Re: ]
Rivrguy Offline
River Nutrients

Registered: 03/03/09
Posts: 4283
Loc: Somewhere on the planet,I hope
Yup Bob Chinook numbers are driven by the AK BC intercept marine fisheries. Coastal marine some yes but nothing compared to the northern intercept. The dragger fisheries are also a big component for Chinook and halibut but never discussed much. Even with the Grays Harbor Policy terminal wise our three fisheries (QIN/NT Commercial/Rec) limiting us we have little to do with the current situation as to Chinook. Little opinion here, that sucks!

Coho and Chum it is terminal harvest that does the major harvest and frankly the streams most affected are tide water tribs. Now that is the problem but how you solve I do not know. What I do know is that it has to be addressed in both the short term and long term but how is the $100 question.
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Dazed and confused.............the fog is closing in

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#1058418 - 12/18/21 11:31 AM Re: FISHINGTHECHEHALIS.NET [Re: eyeFISH]
Carcassman Online   content
River Nutrients

Registered: 11/21/07
Posts: 7211
Loc: Olema,California,Planet Earth
Actual, the "problem" for coho and chum is relatively easy to solve, or at least develop a solution that protects fish and offers sustainable fisheries. You start inside with the individual stream escapement (goal for pre-season) and then sequentially add catch by all users in that stream. Then keep building out to the Bar. You stop adding fisheries when one stream's harvest is taken.

Problem is, putting the fish first will affect the Bay and ocean the most and that is not allowable.

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#1058778 - 01/10/22 10:00 AM Re: FISHINGTHECHEHALIS.NET [Re: Carcassman]
Rivrguy Offline
River Nutrients

Registered: 03/03/09
Posts: 4283
Loc: Somewhere on the planet,I hope
Some of us have been tracking the Late Coho at Bingham. Jan. 7 2021 they had 500 returning adults and this year 2022 same date 750. While everyone has been in a bit of a tizzy over the Steelhead shut down from my perspective it was not needed just for Steelhead but also wild late Coho which are in worse shape. As the hatchery releases have the same it is a good to see what the difference the shut down is having. So if the pattern remains that normal timed Coho had holds true then this is good news. The Wynoochee trap is also up so I think it will. By removing harvest and you get a 50% increase should indicate to the most fervent denier that we have a harvest problem across the board in the Chehalis Basin. For the tidewater tribs which are failing miserably to make salmon and Steelhead escapement this is very good news!
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#1058789 - 01/10/22 01:28 PM Re: FISHINGTHECHEHALIS.NET [Re: Rivrguy]
seabeckraised Offline
Juvenile at Sea

Registered: 05/12/21
Posts: 200
Loc: Mason County
Originally Posted By: Rivrguy
Some of us have been tracking the Late Coho at Bingham. Jan. 7 2021 they had 500 returning adults and this year 2022 same date 750. While everyone has been in a bit of a tizzy over the Steelhead shut down from my perspective it was not needed just for Steelhead but also wild late Coho which are in worse shape. As the hatchery releases have the same it is a good to see what the difference the shut down is having. So if the pattern remains that normal timed Coho had holds true then this is good news. The Wynoochee trap is also up so I think it will. By removing harvest and you get a 50% increase should indicate to the most fervent denier that we have a harvest problem across the board in the Chehalis Basin. For the tidewater tribs which are failing miserably to make salmon and Steelhead escapement this is very good news!


Hadnít got around to looking at these coho numbers but am very much looking forward to seeing the winter steelhead escapement numbers come May/June compared to last year.

Nice having some potentially good news.

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#1058842 - 01/13/22 07:49 AM Re: FISHINGTHECHEHALIS.NET [Re: seabeckraised]
Rivrguy Offline
River Nutrients

Registered: 03/03/09
Posts: 4283
Loc: Somewhere on the planet,I hope
Still tracking the late Coho at Bingham and guys this is getting interesting. Same week 2021 the rack report was 1290 H and 35 W and for 2022 same week it is 2750 H and 115W. Keeping in mind that the normal timed Coho over performed last fall one would expect similar with late Coho. That said look at those numbers and it is clear just how much of an impact harvest has and just how much the natural and hatchery escapement increase when harvest is removed. These numbers are simply amazing from my seat in the bleachers.

For Steelhead this has to be good news but one has to wait for the redd counts later on. I have to say that I do believe that the Steelhead spawners are going to be above expectations now how much is the golden question. My hope is that they will mirror the Coho returns and wouldn't that be a great thing to have happen!
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#1058843 - 01/13/22 09:21 AM Re: FISHINGTHECHEHALIS.NET [Re: eyeFISH]
seabeckraised Offline
Juvenile at Sea

Registered: 05/12/21
Posts: 200
Loc: Mason County
Well put. Along with the ocean conditions that apparently improved in 2021, hopefully a few seasons of no winter fisheries on Grays/Chehalis tribs will provide opportunity in the future. I know Iíd be willing to forgo a handful of seasons if there is a significant increase in redds and escapement.

Canít imagine weíll have a season next year, but this certainly gives some hope for the future.

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#1058844 - 01/13/22 09:30 AM Re: FISHINGTHECHEHALIS.NET [Re: seabeckraised]
Rivrguy Offline
River Nutrients

Registered: 03/03/09
Posts: 4283
Loc: Somewhere on the planet,I hope
The challenge will be how to restrain the harvest managers to NOT immediately return to the old ways of harvest the minute we see improvement. Harvest impacts on Steelhead should never again take place on a natural stock that is not making escapement, period.
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#1058845 - 01/13/22 09:47 AM Re: FISHINGTHECHEHALIS.NET [Re: eyeFISH]
seabeckraised Offline
Juvenile at Sea

Registered: 05/12/21
Posts: 200
Loc: Mason County
Kind of a sidebar, but does anyone know how many studies have been done to determine exactly where there is such a dropoff in steelhead/salmon survival? I know of one in the hood canal thatís definitively shown that roughly 50% donít make it past the floating bridge. Iíd imagine in most places, the first part of their lives is the most dangerous, between large rain events, birds, predatory fish, seals, but is there one life period in general across the board that seems to really bite into the survival rates? I am curious what happens out in the oceans as well, whether itís a slow starvation caused mortality or what?

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#1058846 - 01/13/22 11:49 AM Re: FISHINGTHECHEHALIS.NET [Re: eyeFISH]
Carcassman Online   content
River Nutrients

Registered: 11/21/07
Posts: 7211
Loc: Olema,California,Planet Earth
They have been doing the acoustic tags since about the turn of the century. They have identified places where mortality occurs (HC Bridge) and identifies losses but what is totally lacking is a historical perspective. For example, on the stream I worked on we marked 100% of the smolts (steelhead, coho, CT) and actually measured survival to adult return. For steelhead, marking 100% of the smolts from about 85% of the anadromous zone resulted in about 1/3 of the returning adults being marked.

It is my belief, based on all the data sets I can find, that it is very rare for steelhead to have an R/S of 1, when measured to first return. We have to have the repeats. Also, the data from WA and BC says that R/S increases as smolt age decreases (more nutrients). The couple streams I have calculated where R/S=1 is mean smolt age of 1.5.

There is a lot going on in the marine waters. Certainly predation is taking a big chunk. There is also a lot off correlations which suggest a paucity of food, at least in the areas frequented by the Pacific Salmon.

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#1058849 - 01/13/22 12:36 PM Re: FISHINGTHECHEHALIS.NET [Re: eyeFISH]
seabeckraised Offline
Juvenile at Sea

Registered: 05/12/21
Posts: 200
Loc: Mason County
Not familiar with the term R/S, sorry.

Really hoping to hear about efforts to alter the Hood Canal bridge. Watched some presentations on it, and it seems like theyíve got several options in hand, just need to get to it.

Hood Canal streams would be such a good case study of before and after the bridge alterations. Many streams/rivers with little to no development, with little to no hatchery influence, and little to no fishing pressure.

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#1058852 - 01/13/22 01:12 PM Re: FISHINGTHECHEHALIS.NET [Re: eyeFISH]
Carcassman Online   content
River Nutrients

Registered: 11/21/07
Posts: 7211
Loc: Olema,California,Planet Earth
Recruit per Spawner. If it less than 1, the run declines. At 1, it is stable but no harvest. Above 1.0 there is some harvestable.

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#1058853 - 01/13/22 01:17 PM Re: FISHINGTHECHEHALIS.NET [Re: eyeFISH]
seabeckraised Offline
Juvenile at Sea

Registered: 05/12/21
Posts: 200
Loc: Mason County
Gotcha. Thanks for clarifying. So this would be where repeat spawners are extremely beneficial? Higher egg carrying capacity and deeper redds?

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#1058854 - 01/13/22 02:10 PM Re: FISHINGTHECHEHALIS.NET [Re: eyeFISH]
Carcassman Online   content
River Nutrients

Registered: 11/21/07
Posts: 7211
Loc: Olema,California,Planet Earth
That's part of it, but you simple need the eggs.

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#1058857 - 01/13/22 03:39 PM Re: FISHINGTHECHEHALIS.NET [Re: Carcassman]
Rivrguy Offline
River Nutrients

Registered: 03/03/09
Posts: 4283
Loc: Somewhere on the planet,I hope
DW on his drive about took a look see at the South Monte boat launch and seeing damage alerted Larry Philips and this is his reply. Oh almost forgot Larry is Region 6 Director.

Our initial assessment (though water is still high) is that extensive damage was done to this and a few other access sites. We are working with CAMP on a list of needs but South Monty may be one of worst impacted. As of today we have closed the access and will be conducting additional assessments as soon as possible. Other sites impacted are White Bridge on the Wynoochee and Porter Creek on the Chehalis. Damage at these locations isnít as extensive and should be functional again soon. Thanks again for the heads up. Keep us posted is you or others see additional impacts. Larry
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#1058866 - 01/14/22 09:29 AM Re: FISHINGTHECHEHALIS.NET [Re: eyeFISH]
steely slammer Online   content
Three Time Spawner

Registered: 02/24/00
Posts: 1502
I know Iíd be willing to forgo a handful of seasons if there is a significant increase in redds and escapement.


seabeckrasied.. not everyone has the time to forgo seasons anymore.. dont know your age but alot of fishers dont have yrs to go!!
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Where Destroying Fishing in Washington..

mainly region 6

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#1058883 - 01/15/22 08:49 PM Re: FISHINGTHECHEHALIS.NET [Re: steely slammer]
seabeckraised Offline
Juvenile at Sea

Registered: 05/12/21
Posts: 200
Loc: Mason County
Originally Posted By: steely slammer
I know Iíd be willing to forgo a handful of seasons if there is a significant increase in redds and escapement.


seabeckrasied.. not everyone has the time to forgo seasons anymore.. dont know your age but alot of fishers dont have yrs to go!!


30sÖ I understand, but at what level of escapement should fishing be shut down? 50%? 25%? 10%

Definitely hard to draw a line somewhere but it needs to be done. To be clear, I DONíT believe sport fishing pressure got us into this situation. Unfortunate that we often seem to take the brunt. But at what point do escapement numbers have a higher importance than the golden years of a fishermanís life? Especially when there are other options to the south and north this year.

Tough situation all around.

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#1058884 - 01/16/22 05:09 AM Re: FISHINGTHECHEHALIS.NET [Re: seabeckraised]
Rivrguy Offline
River Nutrients

Registered: 03/03/09
Posts: 4283
Loc: Somewhere on the planet,I hope
I think that sport fishing played a roll in the decline of Steelhead be it not as the same magnitude tribal commercial fisheries. No free rides here! Now that said the unbelievably anal manner the agencies past and present hatcheries were used is mind boggling. There are ways to use hatcheries and ways not to use them. The purest want no hatcheries and others plant fish all over, both are part of the problem if not the problem for fishers. The conflict between the two philosophies has been about like hand to hand combat in the agency for years. Truth is a native Steelhead run should be heavily protected, where they are toast utilize that stream for harvest and look to opportunities where H&W conflicts are not present. Summerrun in Grays Harbor being an excellent example no interbreeding or wild genetic conflicts winter Steelhead just the opposite.

Steelhead or native salmon cannot be saved in every stream and every place as we as a people do not have the will. Until folks get there arms rapped around that fact and chart a different path nothing changes.
_________________________
Dazed and confused.............the fog is closing in

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#1058885 - 01/16/22 08:49 AM Re: FISHINGTHECHEHALIS.NET [Re: eyeFISH]
Carcassman Online   content
River Nutrients

Registered: 11/21/07
Posts: 7211
Loc: Olema,California,Planet Earth
Well said.

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#1058890 - 01/16/22 02:10 PM Re: FISHINGTHECHEHALIS.NET [Re: eyeFISH]
seabeckraised Offline
Juvenile at Sea

Registered: 05/12/21
Posts: 200
Loc: Mason County
100% agree. IMO, fisheries like summer steelhead on Chehalis tribs are perfect in that they have no impact on remaining wild stock. Having sacrificial rivers is the way to go. Protect Sol Duc and Hoh type rivers, allowing a season when escapement allows. Otherwise, planting the hell out of other rivers that have no viable native run at present.

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#1058892 - 01/16/22 05:25 PM Re: FISHINGTHECHEHALIS.NET [Re: eyeFISH]
Carcassman Online   content
River Nutrients

Registered: 11/21/07
Posts: 7211
Loc: Olema,California,Planet Earth
Remember that the fish will still need to be shared although I think steelhead are lumped into one pot summer/winter/hatchery/wild.

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