After reviewing many posts regarding releasing natives I have a little input. I know several anglers that pursue these fish with noodle rods and light tackle. They say they get more enjoyment from the long battle and feel that it takes more skill on their part to land a large native with this gear. I also believe that these folks are playing these fish out to exhaustion, and the chances for recovery on any released fish are minimized greatly. My feel on this is to use gear that is adequate to quickly get these fish in, and my experience has been that I get a better fight from these fish by putting as much pressure on them as my gear will allow. This really shows off the strength of these fish without totally exhausting them. I am quite confident that these fish have a greater chance of survival and all fish released have swam strongly back to their holding spots. Any input?

B Mac, I agree with you 100%, if you're going to c&r do it quickly with minimal stress to the fish. I have been a guide in S.E. Ak. for 10 years and have seen some truly wide open king bites, with these hot bites and the fact that non resident guests are allowed 1 king a day and 4 for the year many of them ask about c&r, I prefer not to do it but because I am mainly working for tips I do sometimes release, but I also tell the guest that they must keep the drags where I set them (tight) and they must get them in in a reasonable amount of time, if they don't and I think the fish is going to die it goes in the box, my call, not theirs.
I have also watched a number of people here on the peninsula where I do most of my winter fishing fight fish to near exhaustion, 15-20 minute fights and then release them thinking just because they swam away they'll be fine, ever seen a chicken with its head cut off, just because he's running doesn't mean he's ok.
I have a friend in Ketchikan who is a biologist for Ak. fish and game who claim there research indicates anywhere from 33 to 40 percent of salmon c&r will not make it, he says that because of there bi-valve heart as opposed to our 4 valve hearts they are much more susseptable to heart failure, he thinks if the fight goes more than 12 to 15 minutes throw the fish in the box, its not likely to survive, I tend to agree, well thats my .02 worth, good fishing

BMac would you be related to the late
Paul Beaupre of BeauMac Enterprises ?
Just wondering. Tight lines, Jim Marquis

Brian,
Although I`ve fished mainly salmon
I`ve always thought the sooner you get
them in the better, I just horse them
in as quickly as possible. Not to mention you don`t lose as many either..*L*

I think it's safe to say that the majority of visitors to this board are pro-C&R. I'm amazed by how many posters say they regularly use 8# and even 6#-test line and/or leaders when targeting steelhead in streams where native fish are present. And the people that use such line from the bank rather than boats amaze me even more.

The fact that heavier line will cause fewer hook-ups under certain water conditions is no excuse in my book. In fact, I wouldn't be surprised if during some of those water conditions is the WORST time to not "land" fish quickly.

It's been my experience that I lose fish most often right after hook-up and at the end of the fight. The end of the fight is obviously when the fish is most stressed. We don't have the chance to revive those fish like we would if we had landed them, so the length of the fight up to that point is even more important for the survival of the fish.

I believe that during landing is the time that the fish is most likely to be injured. Correct me if I'm wrong, but it seems to me that the person using the combination of long noodle rod and light line would have more difficulty during the landing of the fish than a person using a shorter, heavier rod and heavier line. If so, not only is there more chance the more-stressed fish will escape without resusitation, there is also more chance for the fish to be injured.

Some may say they bring in fish just as fast as others with heavier line. So what? Who are you comparing yourself to?

I won't even bother commenting on those that might say they bring in fish virtually as fast on light line as they do with heavier line.

The word that most often comes to mind when pondering this subject is "irresponsible". The practice of using light line appears to be so prevalent in Wa. that it makes me wonder if anyone has given thought to imposing regulations that require a minimum line and leader strength in certain instances.

I better end my post before I make even more enemies.



[This message has been edited by AkBill (edited 02-21-2000).]

I would be afraid to try 6lb or even 8lb`,
I must be a wuss I guess, I use 10 and 12lb.
heh-heh, like I said earlier, I prefer to just horse them in

On just about all Puget Sound streams there is substantial separation between the hatchery and native runs. On the Sky, the separation is remarkable; hatchery fish run from late-November and is just about over by late-February, while the nates run from mid-February through April. There are some early nates as well as a few late hatchery fish, but the run was genetically selected for early return by years of selecting early fish for brood stock.

I generally run 8 or 10 during the hatchery season and 12/12 during C&R, mainly because of the size of the respective fish. Most steelheaders that catch fish consistently in all conditions, feel it an advantage to use lighter lines when its clear and/or bright out. I fight a fish until I can land it, no more, no less, and this usually take no more than 10 minutes. This is not difficult with properly matched gear. I fish for both the conditions and the fish in the water; the separation of runs makes this possible most of the time.

I agree that a fish should not be fought to exhaustion, its just not necessary, but I don't think 8lb test is irresponsible in mixed streams.

[This message has been edited by obsessed (edited 02-21-2000).]

Great topic. I for one feel more than a little intimidated when I run out of rod on a fish and am forced to rely soley on my drag, thumb(ow)and line. Kind of a control sort of thing going on I suppose. Quicker the better I think.

Duck, no I'm not but I have used many of his products. As for a follow up on this topic I agree with those of you who use light line or leader early in the season when there are predominantly hatchery brats around. An aware fisherman knows the timing of various runs on his favorite rivers and can adjust his gear accordingly. I would only suggest to those of you that may still be fishing with 6 or 8 lb. line or leaders to think about beefing up a little as we get into March. I am currently fishing 15 lb line and my hookups have not diminished even in this low clear water. When I make my trek out to the coast next month I may go even heavier. Thanks for all who responded, good discussion.

Judging by the response, my guess is that this topic hasn't made many, if any, converts. Not that I'm surprised.

How about a compromise?: It would help if they were to at least not advertise their use
of light line/leader or otherwise promote it's use.

Bill, you mentioned that, in your opinion, 6 and 8 lb line was irresponsible. But you never did recommend a specific poundage that is responsible for the peninsula, and under what season and/or range of conditions it is appropriate. For both summer and winter-runs I use different "ranges" of line sizes for steelhead angling. The range during the summer is 4 to 10 lb leaders, and during the winter it is 8 to 15 lb leaders. For arguments' sake, I'll focus on the winter range, because in all honesty, you can count the number of native peninsula summer-runs I've landed on one hand over the past five years. I use a 2/0 Gamakatsu and 12 lb Maxima UG under most winter conditions. Occasionally I'll rig-up with a 3/0 and 15 lb leader, and occasionally I'll use a #1 hook and 8 lb leader. These gear choices are purely dictated by river conditions, not my quest to have "fun," so to speak. For me, the fun is the entire experience: from reading the river, making a proper presentation, the hook-up, the fight, then a native's release.

The occasions when I use 8 or 15 lb leaders are rare. I use 3/0 hooks and 15 lb leaders under extremely heavy flows and turbidity. This is tied with a very sloppy rag or rag/spin-n-glo combo. Conversely, I use 8lb leaders when the peninsula's rivers are low and clear, like all of last week. No, it does not matter if I'm in a boat or a maggot for the day, because I get out and beach all natives prior to release anyway. What it boils down to is that many factors go into a successfully releasing a native. So dissing an angler because he/she uses a certain line size, without accounting for that person's skill level or the river conditions, is feather-ruffling. I don't consider myself a "Master." But, personally, I can say that it takes about the same amount of time for me to land a comparable nate while I'm using 8lb leader in low clear water or 15lb leader during heavy flows.

Bill, I will concede, though, that using 6 or 8lb in heavy flows would probably result in a protracted fight, despite angler skill; a selfish act during March and April on the peninsula.

Well I gues I am one of those light liners. I personaly don't think people realize how much you can put on 6 or 8 lb line. I gues a good test to try would be one I read in a book. Have yer buddy hold the end of yer line at 10' from the end of yer rod, don't rap it around his finger! Just pinch it. give it a jerk as if to set the hook. the line will pop right out of his hands. now run that line out may 30' and try it. My point is just because I might run an 8 lb leader don't mean I can't pull on that sucker. to put 8 lbs of pull on the end of my line would take so much up at the rod that it's unthinkable to worry about it. I might have 10 lb main line and be running an 8 or 6 leader. or 12 line with a 10 or 8 leader. yes in faster water I like to step up but you will never find me running more than a 10 lb leader. unless I am out for some big kings then I might step up for the reason of sharp teath and they like to shake their heads and that can saw through and leader. As for a noodle rod. I think that the amount the fish is having to pull on that rod takes much less energy than a short stiff one. let me tie you to a telephone pole and let me just start yanking you around. or just gently tire you down with a lighter stick to be released to regain yer wind in some nice spot with out some moron pulling you by the tail back and forth in the water. when I CnR I pull the hook out gently in the water touching the fish as little as possible and just gently cradle the fish for a second and then let it go. if it wants to just set in front of me that's fine as long as it's not belly up.(I've never had that happen) What makes me sick is the guys that handle the fish. buy pulling it back and forth, you normally gotta put one hand under it, and then buy going back and forth you are removing the protective slime and that fish is going to have bigger problems from bacteria getting to it than being to tired out. Yes I agree that you can tire a fish out to much but just because I use a lighter leader don't mean I will be taking 30 min to land my fish. most of the fish in the rivers I fish will run from 5 to maybe 15 lbs and the ocasional one larger. Yes if I were to go for the bigger ones I would want to step up the sizes alittle but give me a break 20 lb why bother they make cable and winches for that stuff. If you use it just let me know when you snag up so I can turn my head and duck when that led comes wizzing back. As for hook sizes. It really has to do with the bait I am useing. shrimp I like #4 but when I am fishing larger eggs or maybe some corkies larger than what I can put between the shank and the hook then I might step up to a 1/0 or more comenly a 2/0. no larger for me. I am considering trying doubles where they are legal. might drop to #2 and put them very close together. but only when conditions aren't gin clear. I think the double would work well with the rags I am going to be trying. with the top hook being hidden just under the rag. what ever we fish the most important thing is that we know how to use it to land the fish safely and not damage the fish when we get it in. I fish from my boat and that really helps land fish wothout over stressing them I to like to get on the banck to land them when they are willing to. I would really like to get a CnR net so when I do get one that must come to the boat I can do it without harming the fish. I geuse the biggest thing to me is that more fish are probably killed due to miss handling than buy light gear.I mean think about how hard it is to get that fish to hold still when it is going nuts at the banck or in the net.No I don't play them out untill they can't move but I will tell you there is a big dif between the fish that is just winched in and and the one that was played for a min or 2 more. oh well I guess I better get off it now. Lets take care of the ones we do get and we will all have more big ones next year!


dcrzfitter

Hoh,
Before reading your post last night, I was thinking about my posts and wondering why I get so worked up about this subject. I think it started when I read about the guy that used to come up each summer and fish for Kenai R. kings with 2#-class. Their promotion of using line too light for the fish is one reason I won't ever be a member of IGFA again. No, I'm not trying to say that 2# for Kenai R. kings is the same as 6# or 8# for native steelhead.

Nevertheless, I feel I went too far by calling people irresponsible and for my whole second post. I too have been guilty of not practicing what I preached in my sermon. Years ago, I used 4#-test for Kasilof kings for about an hour during The Mother of All Runs( had over 40 hook-ups that day .) I appologize if I've offended anyone. I'm hoping I can just bite my tongue the next time the subject comes up or, at the very least, be more diplomatic. Bill

I too fish from a boat and never have had to use a net for CnR what we do on most occassions is to bring the fish to the boat and reach down with the needle nose pliers and grab the hook buy the shank we then hold the fish in the current until it is showing some signs of struggle which means that it has had good recovery and then twist the hook out with a quick snap and let the nate go.

Good point dcrzfitter, have you ever tried to break a snagged 8-lb leader without wrapping the line around your arm and pointing the rod at it?

[This message has been edited by Preston Singletary (edited 02-24-2000).]

I believe in catch and release for all wild fish, hatchery fish are fine to keep. I fish for trout at the Deschutes (OR) River a lot, I will never keep trout from there. Why? I don't find really like eating trout, but I do like the fight. C&R should be implemented in some areas, but not .all