#890744 - 04/01/14 11:25 PM
Re: Lawsuit over PS Steelhead hatcheries today
[Re: ]
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Returning Adult
Registered: 08/15/12
Posts: 247
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I back backtrollin'!
You are very knowledgeable on the subject. What can we do to help? Who can we pressure?
There is the immediate issue of possibly no steelhead smolts, and then there's the much larger issue of the WFC itself. They are the ultimate thorn in the side. If indeed they are getting taxpayer dollars to do what they are doing, then it would seem that public pressure may work in stopping that flow of money.
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#890752 - 04/02/14 12:00 AM
Re: Lawsuit over PS Steelhead hatcheries today
[Re: Smalma]
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Three Time Spawner
Registered: 01/05/07
Posts: 1551
Loc: Bremerton, Wa.
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Does not seem off topic really.........According to data in report, last year for hatchery plants on the Nisqually was 1984....30 years ago unless I missed something......sports and native fishers hatchery and native fish caught counts into the nintys.....my point in raising the Nisqually issue is that I would like to see one place that stopping hatchery fish being planted has brought better returns.....Oregon seems to like broodstocking and their people are catching fish, while we mostly catch each other.
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A little common sense is good, more is better.
Kitsap Chapter CCA
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#890754 - 04/02/14 12:06 AM
Re: Lawsuit over PS Steelhead hatcheries today
[Re: MPM]
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Lord of the Chums
Registered: 03/29/14
Posts: 6779
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BLM IS A TERRORIST ORGANIZATION ANTIFA IS A TERRORIST ORGANIZATION 
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#890761 - 04/02/14 12:41 AM
Re: Lawsuit over PS Steelhead hatcheries today
[Re: 5 * General Evo]
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Spawner
Registered: 03/07/12
Posts: 781
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I'm not standing up for the guy but it's obviously not a shotgun pose.
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Why build in the flood plain?
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#890762 - 04/02/14 12:42 AM
Re: Lawsuit over PS Steelhead hatcheries today
[Re: Salman]
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Spawner
Registered: 03/07/12
Posts: 781
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Hatcheries sure do give one a false sense of security.
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Why build in the flood plain?
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#890764 - 04/02/14 01:01 AM
Re: Lawsuit over PS Steelhead hatcheries today
[Re: Salman]
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Carcass
Registered: 01/09/14
Posts: 2298
Loc: Sky River(WA) Clearwater(Id)
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So basically Puget Sound steelheading will be a thing of the past soon? Native runs aren't "functionally extinct" yet but close enough to probably never see a cnr fishery in my life. Nothing above sounds very positive
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#890778 - 04/02/14 10:06 AM
Re: Lawsuit over PS Steelhead hatcheries today
[Re: Bent Metal]
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Dick Nipples
Registered: 03/08/99
Posts: 27840
Loc: Seattle, Washington USA
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Go after the entities who have failed to get their permits, not the organizationvwho pointed it out.
Get rid of the WFC and guess what? WDFW is still operating their hatchery program in violation of the ESA.
If you just like to bitch then bitch about the WFC...if you want the hatchery program then get the entities whose job it is to get the permits for and operate it to get their permits and operate it.
Fish on...
Todd
_________________________
 Team Flying Super Ditch Pickle
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#890780 - 04/02/14 10:22 AM
Re: Lawsuit over PS Steelhead hatcheries today
[Re: Todd]
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River Nutrients
Registered: 11/21/07
Posts: 7741
Loc: Olema,California,Planet Earth
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Since the Feds have shown no huevos in making WDFW get permits, there are no penalties for not getting the permits, if one gets rid of WFC we go back to square 1. Planting fish, catching a few, and ignoring the wild run.
The Co-Managers and Feds are all just fine with the status quo. Otherwise, they'd do something about it.
How many times have the Feds been told to fix their Columbia plans? And how many times do they put another shade of lipstick on the pig?
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#890783 - 04/02/14 11:13 AM
Re: Lawsuit over PS Steelhead hatcheries today
[Re: 5 * General Evo]
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Spawner
Registered: 12/09/08
Posts: 764
Loc: Seattle, WA
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#890784 - 04/02/14 11:15 AM
Re: Lawsuit over PS Steelhead hatcheries today
[Re: Carcassman]
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Juvenile at Sea
Registered: 01/14/03
Posts: 203
Loc: redmond, WA
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Good on the WFC. They are just asking the WDFW to follow the law of the land and have given them ample time to do so. This isn't some knee jerk reaction it has been 7 year or 12 depends on how you look a the dates. I know the reaction will be to go after them but as Todd puts it the WDFW is the one not following the law. At least someone is standing up for the rule of law and they have my support.
I know the status quo isn't work, heck even the wdfw says that hatchery fish have and adverse affect. I don't see wfc saying no hatchery fish but at a minimum follow the law. WDFW has made some changes and I applaud them for that but follow the law and this wouldn't be an issue. There may be other justified issues. The more I read the more I realize if we don't try something different then nothing is going to change and the path we are in now isn't a very good one. I know everyone wants opportunity and I do as much as anyone, I hurt each day in April when I can't go fish locally but I don't see how trying to recover wild fish limits opportunity. It doesn't you recover them you increase opportunity.
JJ
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#890787 - 04/02/14 11:36 AM
Re: Lawsuit over PS Steelhead hatcheries today
[Re: JJ]
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Returning Adult
Registered: 02/02/05
Posts: 334
Loc: Lake Stevens
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The WFC is nothing more than a bunch of sniveling little privileged pussies who try to force their opinions and beliefs on everyone. They've had everything spoon fed to them by mommy and daddy and live in this ideal world of how things 'should be.' So far, most of the supporters seem to be similar in that they think just because they don't fish for hatchery fish that no one else does either. Living in there own little pretentious bubble only coming out from January to April. Spending the rest of their time behind a desk turning their nose up to other fisheries. Text book definition of Elitist and not limited to fly anglers by any means.
I think this is exactly the biggest problem with us sportsmen. We're too unorganized, arrogant and self involved to band together long enough to stand up for what the REAL fishing community wants. Instead, we get a small group of these stuck up elitists who are organized enough to push their 'OPINION' and make it look like the overall voice of the fishing community. They even go on to say that the general public has been 'duped' by the WDFW and wasting taxpayers' dollars on hatchery fish. Yet now, they are forcing the WDFW to WASTE ALL THE SMOLTS THAT WE THE TAXPAYERS ALREADY PAID FOR!! Total hypocrisy. I personally feel like I should be able to sue someone over not releasing these smolts. The REAL fishing community and the rest of state already paid for these smolts to be raised and released. Now we're going to put them in LAKES!!
Everyone knows our system is fukt right now. However, if the WFC and NFS actually gave a [Bleeeeep!] about the fish, they would know that forcing the WDFW to waste money on court fees rather that put money into fixing the problems is about the worst case scenario. Additionally, where will the Reiter Rats and Tokul Creek anglers go? Ever thought about that? Ever think that now some of them will be heading over the Coast to kill their one wild fish because they enjoy eating steelhead? Ever think that since the WDFW is spending money on this stupid lawsuit (and WFC court fees ..WTF!!!) that there will be less enforcement over there? Maybe that person will kill a few steelhead then if we can't afford to have anyone over their checking? The reality is that these little pussies feel like they can sleep better at night knowing they fought the big bad hatchery fish. But wait, do you really need to fight the big bad Chambers Creek hatchery fish?......
No one knows. I have yet to see these 'studies' and 'facts' that prove that removing Chambers Creek fish will help the wild fish population. Has anyone? If this information and data is so 'definite', why is is impossible to find and why haven't they sent it to me after my numerous requests? When this goes to court, I hope to God that the WDFW requires this 'definite data', (notice I didn't quote them exactly because they say 'definite science'....... well usually REAL science has data and results.....) to be brought to the public. The same public that funds these asshats in their holy quest.
Now to tail out of my rant.... If someone can provide me the actual reports, data, and 'science' these groups use, it would be greatly appreciated. In fact, make them PUBLIC records to the actual fishing community can make up their own minds about it. I may have have the end all solution for bringing back the wild fish, but I know that this smoke and mirrors [Bleeeeep!] is not it.
My own personal mission will also be find out where these groups like to fish, and crowd the [Bleeeeep!] out of those places. I'm talking internet pictures, maps, killing my wild fish on it, if legal. I'll bring as many friends as possible out there to clog every single hole and every single launch. Just so they see the true impacts of what they're doing. I might even crowd their favorite Starbucks so it makes it hard for them to steal wifi while drinking their lattes.
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Team Haters
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#890788 - 04/02/14 11:42 AM
Re: Lawsuit over PS Steelhead hatcheries today
[Re: JJ]
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Returning Adult
Registered: 08/07/09
Posts: 477
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If they stop the plantings in the PS, then they need to stop ALL fishing for Steelhead in ALL the rivers, period. No barbless hooks, no C&R, no nothing. Shut it down completely.
Edited by Blktailhunter (04/02/14 11:42 AM)
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#890790 - 04/02/14 11:48 AM
Re: Lawsuit over PS Steelhead hatcheries today
[Re: mitch184]
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Returning Adult
Registered: 08/07/09
Posts: 477
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The WFC is nothing more than a bunch of sniveling little privileged pussies who try to force their opinions and beliefs on everyone. They've had everything spoon fed to them by mommy and daddy and live in this ideal world of how things 'should be.' So far, most of the supporters seem to be similar in that they think just because they don't fish for hatchery fish that no one else does either. Living in there own little pretentious bubble only coming out from January to April. Spending the rest of their time behind a desk turning their nose up to other fisheries. Text book definition of Elitist and not limited to fly anglers by any means.
I think this is exactly the biggest problem with us sportsmen. We're too unorganized, arrogant and self involved to band together long enough to stand up for what the REAL fishing community wants. Instead, we get a small group of these stuck up elitists who are organized enough to push their 'OPINION' and make it look like the overall voice of the fishing community. They even go on to say that the general public has been 'duped' by the WDFW and wasting taxpayers' dollars on hatchery fish. Yet now, they are forcing the WDFW to WASTE ALL THE SMOLTS THAT WE THE TAXPAYERS ALREADY PAID FOR!! Total hypocrisy. I personally feel like I should be able to sue someone over not releasing these smolts. The REAL fishing community and the rest of state already paid for these smolts to be raised and released. Now we're going to put them in LAKES!!
Everyone knows our system is fukt right now. However, if the WFC and NFS actually gave a [Bleeeeep!] about the fish, they would know that forcing the WDFW to waste money on court fees rather that put money into fixing the problems is about the worst case scenario. Additionally, where will the Reiter Rats and Tokul Creek anglers go? Ever thought about that? Ever think that now some of them will be heading over the Coast to kill their one wild fish because they enjoy eating steelhead? Ever think that since the WDFW is spending money on this stupid lawsuit (and WFC court fees ..WTF!!!) that there will be less enforcement over there? Maybe that person will kill a few steelhead then if we can't afford to have anyone over their checking? The reality is that these little pussies feel like they can sleep better at night knowing they fought the big bad hatchery fish. But wait, do you really need to fight the big bad Chambers Creek hatchery fish?......
No one knows. I have yet to see these 'studies' and 'facts' that prove that removing Chambers Creek fish will help the wild fish population. Has anyone? If this information and data is so 'definite', why is is impossible to find and why haven't they sent it to me after my numerous requests? When this goes to court, I hope to God that the WDFW requires this 'definite data', (notice I didn't quote them exactly because they say 'definite science'....... well usually REAL science has data and results.....) to be brought to the public. The same public that funds these asshats in their holy quest.
Now to tail out of my rant.... If someone can provide me the actual reports, data, and 'science' these groups use, it would be greatly appreciated. In fact, make them PUBLIC records to the actual fishing community can make up their own minds about it. I may have have the end all solution for bringing back the wild fish, but I know that this smoke and mirrors [Bleeeeep!] is not it.
My own personal mission will also be find out where these groups like to fish, and crowd the [Bleeeeep!] out of those places. I'm talking internet pictures, maps, killing my wild fish on it, if legal. I'll bring as many friends as possible out there to clog every single hole and every single launch. Just so they see the true impacts of what they're doing. I might even crowd their favorite Starbucks so it makes it hard for them to steal wifi while drinking their lattes.
+1
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#890792 - 04/02/14 11:56 AM
Re: Lawsuit over PS Steelhead hatcheries today
[Re: mitch184]
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Spawner
Registered: 12/09/08
Posts: 764
Loc: Seattle, WA
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I think this is exactly the biggest problem with us sportsmen. We're too unorganized, arrogant and self involved to band together long enough to stand up for what the REAL fishing community wants.
Surely the first step in sportsmen banding together is to make sweeping accusations about how the other sportsmen who disagree with you are "privileged little pussies."
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#890793 - 04/02/14 12:03 PM
Re: Lawsuit over PS Steelhead hatcheries today
[Re: Blktailhunter]
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Juvenile at Sea
Registered: 01/14/03
Posts: 203
Loc: redmond, WA
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I will leave the name calling and personal attacks to other as you don't know me or my fishing practices just as I don't know you or yours.
So what I am hearing is that you support law breaking by the WDFW? How long does the department have to comply with the law? This has really been out there since 2002. 12 years seem like enough time but we could just use the 2007 date so 7 years. How do you go about working with agencies that only respond to lawsuits? It would be far cheaper for the wdfw to just follow the law then they wouldn't have these law suits. Laws could be changed to fit your narrative and if that happens then the wdfw would be in compliance so help make that happen that no one needs permits to impact systems. But then be careful what you wish for as that would apply to logging, polluters, etc. We have laws for a reason. They have had ample time to make changes (some they have and good for them) and at least follow the law.
JJ
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#890794 - 04/02/14 12:12 PM
Re: Lawsuit over PS Steelhead hatcheries today
[Re: Blktailhunter]
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Parr
Registered: 03/30/08
Posts: 40
Loc: Pierce county
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Well said Mitch 184. It's time the "sniveling little privileged pussies" learn what endangered means.
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#890796 - 04/02/14 12:19 PM
Re: Lawsuit over PS Steelhead hatcheries today
[Re: mitch184]
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Hippie
Registered: 01/31/02
Posts: 4450
Loc: B'ham
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We're too unorganized, arrogant and self involved to band together long enough to stand up for what the REAL fishing community wants. Yeah, that is the problem.  Well, based on your rant, you might be right on the arrogant part since you seem to be implying that you are both part of the REAL fishing community and anyone that disagrees with what you are spouting is not. WFC has a history of trying to work with the state and make the state follow its own rules. Lawsuits are really the last option but seem to be one of the few things that actually gets the state's attention. If you really want to punish the WFC, you should support the WDFW in adopting legal and operational positions that could/would actually win in court. The state could demand the court costs from WFC rather than the other way around. Instead, you are talking about bonking wild fish to spite someone?
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#890798 - 04/02/14 12:39 PM
Re: Lawsuit over PS Steelhead hatcheries today
[Re: AP a.k.a. Kaiser D]
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Returning Adult
Registered: 02/02/05
Posts: 334
Loc: Lake Stevens
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I would say I am part of fishing community. I take part in about every species of fish we have hear in the state and all over the state. Although that definitely doesn't give me any more authority or clout or the right to say that my word is the final end all. I'm sure people disagree and that's fine.
Arrogant...... maybe behind a computer, but I'm a facts, data guy and well calulated or documented numbers usually don't lie.
My main beef, besides the rant, is the lack of hard data, reports, documented facts for their case. It may be out there, but I haven't found it nor has anyone I've talked to so far. If these Chambers Creek and hatchery fish in general truely due have as much of a negative impact on wild stocks as they say, I definitely might change my tune. However, for a group to make the kind of claims they make, file lawsuits, and possibly be publicly funded (I'm haven't seen this for fact, but have been told), there just isn't the data, for me, to justify this.
Either way, this lawsuit will use up a lot of public taxpayer money and right now I'm not confident anything will change. Other than less fish. That's not really the goal... right?? And if this lawsuit does make a major impact in how things are run, I guess I'll be eating my words and buying lots of beers for people who say 'I told you so.' I'll honor that any day.
Open question still stands, does anyone have this Skagit report they talk about?
PS. and if it came down to it, I probably still wouldn't bonk a wild one. Just more of a point.
Edited by mitch184 (04/02/14 12:43 PM)
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Team Haters
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#890801 - 04/02/14 12:58 PM
Re: Lawsuit over PS Steelhead hatcheries today
[Re: mitch184]
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Dick Nipples
Registered: 03/08/99
Posts: 27840
Loc: Seattle, Washington USA
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Here are a couple of facts.
For 12 years WDFW has been operating its winter steelhead hatchery program in Puget Sound without a permit as required by the ESA.
First it failed to obtain a permit to show that its hatchery operations were not in violation of the ESA when PS Chinook were listed.
WDFW was sued by WT/WFC to make them be in compliance, and a settlement was reached whereby WT/WFC would lay off the lawsuit for ten years...10 years...while WDFW got its ducks in a row.
Without that permit WDFW is in direct violation of the ESA.
Seven years ago PS Steelhead are listed on the ESA, and now WDFW is required to have a permit to operate their PS winter steelhead hatchery program under the ESA for that listing.
Seven years ago.
WDFW needed to submit a plan to the Feds 12 years ago, and then the Feds needed to certify that the plan is in accordance with ESA guidelines.
This is the law. It is not a policy decision, and it is not something that the feds, State, tribes, or the WFC get exercise discretion on...it is the law of the land.
Sportfishermen benefit when the program is certified.
The tribes benefit when the program is certified.
The State benefits when the program is certified.
The Feds benefit when the program is certified.
Any one of those four groups could have made it happen...they are, after all, the groups who benefit from the program.
The WFC, who makes no bones about their desire to see the hatchery programs be in compliance, is the only one making them do it so far.
If you have a bone to pick with anyone about the legal standing of the PS winter steelhead hatchery program then go directly to those who can establish that legal standing, and are, in fact legally required to do so.
The failure of the feds, tribes, and WDFW to get this program certified is directly the ONE single cause of this problem
That failure is why this will end up in court unless a settlement is reached.
Those are the people you need to be blaming for not doing their fuckin jobs...
Blaming the WFC will not make the program legal.
Having the WFC disappear tomorrow will not make the program legal.
The only way to make the program legal is for the government agencies that WORK FOR YOU TO DO THEIR FUCKIN JOB.
That's where your anger should be directed.
Now back to your regularly scheduled pissfest at the wrong people.
Fish on...
Todd
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Team Flying Super Ditch Pickle
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