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#896769 - 06/05/14 02:54 PM Re: Wild Fish Conservancy's current fight [Re: Todd]
Double Haul Offline
Three Time Spawner

Registered: 03/07/99
Posts: 1558
Loc: Wherever I can swing for wild ...
Todd, the mission has not changed perhaps it would better to have a off line conversation.
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#896778 - 06/05/14 04:11 PM Re: Wild Fish Conservancy's current fight [Re: Double Haul]
REV. JER Offline
Parr

Registered: 06/05/14
Posts: 60

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#896783 - 06/05/14 04:58 PM Re: Wild Fish Conservancy's current fight [Re: Double Haul]
Lucky Louie Offline
Carcass

Registered: 11/30/09
Posts: 2286
To those that say by putting the fish first and their opportunity will come by doing so.

It sounds wonderful, but wake up you are dreamín.

I keep hearing that the hatcheries have been around so long that they must be the reason of the decline of wild fish.

They seem to ignore that man and our expanding populations have been around longer than hatcheries.


Edited by Lucky Louie (06/05/14 05:00 PM)
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#896784 - 06/05/14 05:07 PM Re: Wild Fish Conservancy's current fight [Re: Lucky Louie]
Todd Offline
Bumpin the 6X9's

Registered: 03/08/99
Posts: 25024
Loc: Seattle, Washington USA
In Puget Sound (outside the Skagit, at least, for now) if there are no hatcheries, there are no hatchery fish.

If there are no hatchery fish, there is no fishing.

Without addressing the factors that are limiting wild fish stocks there will not be enough wild fish to provide "opportunity".

Wasting time and money closing hatcheries will remove any and all opportunity we have to fish, will hurt every business that depends on fishing for all or part of its income (as mine does)...and will have a miniscule, if even measurable at all good effect on wild fish.

There is no "balance" there. There is no "coalition" there. There is no "representing any businesses" that depend on fish and fishing.

There is a lot of time and energy going into something that is terrible for business and fishing, and negligible for wild steelhead benefits.

Generally I support all the groups that work on behalf of our fish and our fisheries, including the WSC and the WFC...but I don't blindly accept all they do, and this wholesale attack on hatcheries is embematic of what is wrong with this whole situation.

I think it's just fine if that's what the WFC wants to do, and I think it's just fine if the WSC and other groups/individuals want to support them...just don't pretend that you are doing it to support businesses or fisheries...including wild fish fisheries...or wild fish.

It doesn't do much of anything good for any of those things, and further alienates the one single group that has the most to gain or lose in the fight for wild steelhead...the steelhead angler.

Fish on...

Todd

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#896785 - 06/05/14 05:15 PM Re: Wild Fish Conservancy's current fight [Re: Todd]
Evo Offline
River Nutrients

Registered: 03/29/14
Posts: 4235
very well said Todd...

doing this will also affect the wild populations on rivers that arent completely hammered... the Cedar and Nisqually have had no hatcheries (Steelhead) for how long now, and what has happened?

the Cedar run is most likely fully extinct... the Nisqually i dont know much about it, but there isnt a fishery thats for sure...

this will help nothing, noone, and not the fish... if anything, it will destroy the tapestry, and leave it in a pile of knotted yarn on the floor...

i almost cried yesterday when i read this...

(i forwarded the information to Duane, he is making some calls and trying to get some people on the show to address it, so pay attention)

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#896787 - 06/05/14 05:16 PM Re: Wild Fish Conservancy's current fight [Re: Todd]
Ickstream Steel Offline
Juvenile at Sea

Registered: 01/10/08
Posts: 105
Curious as to what the supposed ulterior motive of WFC is, if not wild fish conservation. Disagreement over the approach to conservation is another matter.
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#896788 - 06/05/14 05:17 PM Re: Wild Fish Conservancy's current fight [Re: Todd]
Todd Offline
Bumpin the 6X9's

Registered: 03/08/99
Posts: 25024
Loc: Seattle, Washington USA
P.S. This is not some sort of kneejerk reaction by me to have come to this conclusion...frankly, I have thought about and researched it at length and I can't honestly see how anyone comes to the conclusion that this will help fish or fishing.

I don't see much of a need to have a private conversation about it, either...it won't change my mind.

I have already agreed to sit down with one of our mutual friends, Rich, who asked me to sign onto a letter in support of the recent actions and was surprised that I said no...which just goes to show how out of touch with the greater situation those behind these actions are.

The WFC, Native Fish Society, etc., at least don't pretend to have fishing or fishing businesses on their mind when they do what they do.

The WSC does, at least on paper...but may as well not if they are just going to march in lockstep with the WFC and NFS.

When we founded the WSC 14 years ago we were a bunch of fishermen who wanted to make sure we got to fish and that more and greater closures didn't come our way...and we formed a new group because fishermen and fishing businesses were not being represented to our satisfaction in the conservation world.

Closing hatcheries is bad enough...now fighting against the State when they are trying to actually bring their hatchery into compliance with the ESA?

Makes it obvious that ESA compliance is not the issue...closing hatcheries is what they want, ESA or not...doing much of a damn thing at all to help wild fish, or not.

Think that all the fishermen will just switch over to clamoring for the real things that limit wild fish to be addressed now?

Unlikely. Even if they did the political will and money to do it are in short supply...doesn't help that the organizations who should be pushing for them are busy going after hatcheries instead of the things that may actually improve wild fish runs.

No, more likely is that the fishermen will just pile more and more onto the rivers that are open still...and when it happens there, too, then there won't be any fishing at all for steelhead in Washington State.

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#896790 - 06/05/14 05:21 PM Re: Wild Fish Conservancy's current fight [Re: Todd]
topwater Offline
Returning Adult

Registered: 06/28/00
Posts: 452
Loc: Rocky Mountain High
Originally Posted By: Todd
In Puget Sound (outside the Skagit, at least, for now) if there are no hatcheries, there are no hatchery fish.

If there are no hatchery fish, there is no fishing.

Without addressing the factors that are limiting wild fish stocks there will not be enough wild fish to provide "opportunity".



great points under the current management regime by wdfw, but there are rivers in other ESU's that have catch and release fisheries on wild fish that are listed as threatened with no hatchery fish available. hell, wdfw opens the wind when there are enough fish but cannot open the skagit when it exceeds escapement.

i don't know what it would take for wdfw to push for this type of management regime, or if being in the boldt area changes everything but i think there is a way to have some non-consumptive opportunity. consumptive opporunities do require hatcheries for steelhead right now.

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#896794 - 06/05/14 05:43 PM Re: Wild Fish Conservancy's current fight [Re: topwater]
AP a.k.a. Kaiser D Offline
Hippie

Registered: 01/31/02
Posts: 4531
Loc: B'ham
I've said for a long time that the end game will be "pay to play". There will be enough fish for some people but not enough fish for everyone. How it will eventually shape up is hard to say but there will be some sort of lotto/draw system, likely with steep "conservation fees" applied. Much of the world is already and OUR country has been on a similar path for decades (user fees, privatization, etc.).

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#896803 - 06/05/14 06:24 PM Re: Wild Fish Conservancy's current fight [Re: AP a.k.a. Kaiser D]
Dogfish Offline
Poodle Smolt

Registered: 05/03/01
Posts: 10978
Loc: McCleary, WA
I'm just cringing over what traffic will be like on our west end rivers as more of Pugetropolis heads out here to fish.

Thanks for your comments Todd. Spot on.
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#896818 - 06/05/14 08:50 PM Re: Wild Fish Conservancy's current fight [Re: Dogfish]
Fish-Culture Offline
Returning Adult

Registered: 11/05/07
Posts: 250
Todd pretty much summed it up. This is a fish Jihad, a difference in ideology. This appeal has nothing to do with making things better for wild fish. There is only one mile of less than optimal spawning and rearing habitat above the barrier at Tokul Creek Hatchery; in a watershed with miles of good habitat that is currently way underescaped. There is no meeting in the middle, and unfortunately, the sports angler, and wild steelhead, are going to lose, its inevitable. As a sports angler in Puget Sound, you are now down to the Green (weak plant and poor survival), Sky (decent plant and survival), Snoqualmie (decent plant and survival, but is teetering on the edge of existence) Stilly (decent plant poor survival) and Nooksack (big plant horrible survival) for your winter time "opportunity" for Steelhead. We have already lost everything else. Assuming these programs all get their required HGMP's to continue, you are still looking at several years for the facilities to bounce back from planting all their smolts in lakes this year, save for the Sky.

The WFC would love to end these programs, as would others with pragmatic viewpoints simply from a cost/benefit ratio. Is it worth it to continue for such pitiful results? If you want to be able to wet a line after work in the greater Puget Sound, then the answer would be yes, because most rivers are going to be closed after salmon seasons end. Whats it worth for that opportunity? How many like to swing a spoon or double haul a fly for a couple hours after work without having to drive 5 hours, even if the chance at a fish is slim?

And if we do get rid of the hatchery programs, and go to wild management, the only river even close to consistent escapements is the Skagit. Do you think it can handle the pressure being the only river in PS that would be open?

Think Sky type pressure on opening weekend. Can the wild fish handle that? Do we want them to? Which gets right to APs point, and I think hes spot on. Its simply history repeating itself. Look no further than the east coast or Europe to see our angling future for steelhead. Better hope you got a trust fund because thats the only way your going to be able to afford a lottery ticket, "beat", destination steelhead spot, or guide with a "limited entry" permit.

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#896820 - 06/05/14 09:01 PM Re: Wild Fish Conservancy's current fight [Re: Dogfish]
Double Haul Offline
Three Time Spawner

Registered: 03/07/99
Posts: 1558
Loc: Wherever I can swing for wild ...
Todd, my original comment was not based in context to organization, but in context to individuals as a personal observation and what I have experience regarding the subject matter this far. As a colleague in steelhead conservation, I respect your opinions and past working together, that said, I would just personally get more out it over a beer than a bulletin board.
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#896823 - 06/05/14 09:29 PM Re: Wild Fish Conservancy's current fight [Re: Double Haul]
Todd Offline
Bumpin the 6X9's

Registered: 03/08/99
Posts: 25024
Loc: Seattle, Washington USA
Rich, I am going to meet up with Rob some time soon, you should join us.

Fish on...

Todd

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#896825 - 06/05/14 10:24 PM Re: Wild Fish Conservancy's current fight [Re: AP a.k.a. Kaiser D]
Salmo g. Offline
River Nutrients

Registered: 03/08/99
Posts: 12530
Originally Posted By: AP a.k.a. Kaiser D
Originally Posted By: Salmo g.
Employing every conceivable conservation measure is likely to yield a modest result - at best.


^If I read that how you intended it, that is a real doozy, SG. I certainly don't agree that the difference between "no conservation" vs. "every conceivable" measure would be "modest".

Originally Posted By: Salmo g.
If WFC believes that by closing hatcheries, wild steelhead will recover to the level that supports meaningful fishing opportunity in Puget Sound, well, they missed the train.
Sg


The Skagit will likely be the test of this statement.


Sorry for the lack of clarity AP. What I meant is that by employing every feasible conservation tool in the box, the yield would be a modest increase in wild steelhead abundance.

The difference between current abundance and 1980s abundance is predominantly due to reduced marine survival, and very, very slightly due to continued degradation of freshwater habitat carrying capacity.

Since hatchery stocking on the Nisqually was discontinued, abundance has continued to decline, and that despite no targeted fishing since 1993. Cedar steelhead have increased, but not significantly - and the problems on the Cedar are more complex than anything like harvest and hatchery stocking. The showcase river, the Wind, has shown an increased abundance of wild steelhead, and it is likely significant, but I can't say how much of the increase is due to no hatchery stocking and imposition of no wild steelhead harvest. A similar increase looks to be happening on the EF Lewis also, but personally I think stopping the harvest of wild steelhead contributes more to the increase than discontinuing the stocking of hatchery fish? Why? Because when harvest restrictions on wild steelhead went into effect on most PS rivers, wild steelhead responded with increasing abundance, even though hatchery stocking continued at levels equal to, or greater than, occurs today.

Sg

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#896831 - 06/05/14 10:36 PM Re: Wild Fish Conservancy's current fight [Re: Salmo g.]
steeliedrew Offline
SRC Poser

Registered: 11/04/10
Posts: 2143
Loc: Snohomish
Why not do brood stock programs? If you talk to a few certain forks guides they'll tell you that the Sol Duc wasn't worth a sh!t compared to what it became after the Snider program. I'm not claiming to know much about the Sol Duc or the feasibility of brood stock programs working out on our Puget sound streams. I'm just throwing out an example and asking "why not"?

I would 100% volunteer my free time, and gas money to catch and tether suitable adults for a program on the sky if it were to happen. I'm sure I'm not the only one.
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#896857 - 06/06/14 12:50 AM Re: Wild Fish Conservancy's current fight [Re: Todd]
Double Haul Offline
Three Time Spawner

Registered: 03/07/99
Posts: 1558
Loc: Wherever I can swing for wild ...
Thanks Todd, send me a note when and where.
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Decisions and changes seldom occur by posting on Internet bulletin boards.

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#896865 - 06/06/14 01:19 AM Re: Wild Fish Conservancy's current fight [Re: Double Haul]
Moravec Offline


Registered: 03/27/08
Posts: 1040
Loc: Snoqualmie WA/Cordova AK
Originally Posted By: Double Haul
Todd, the mission has not changed perhaps it would better to have a off line conversation.


Why? Man up and say what you want to say to everyone. Don't back down one bit when not-everyone agrees with you.

WE NEED A BALANCE AND WE DONT NEED LOBBYISTS THAT FUND THEIR BUSINESSES THROUGH FIGHTING THAT BALANCE

We all share this resource and we sure as hell don't need a bunch of goddammed lawyers making decisions for us.
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#896868 - 06/06/14 01:31 AM Re: Wild Fish Conservancy's current fight [Re: Moravec]
SCARBOO Offline
Juvenile at Sea

Registered: 06/13/05
Posts: 213
Loc: Bothell, WA
I think the WSC started out with good intentions and mission. Unfortunately the fringe extremists usually take over and push their agenda. If memory seves me correctly, Puget Sound Anglers started out of the ashes of TU. Unhappy with the anti-hatchery mentality.

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#896885 - 06/06/14 07:07 AM Re: Wild Fish Conservancy's current fight [Re: SCARBOO]
Smalma Offline
River Nutrients

Registered: 11/25/01
Posts: 2757
Loc: Marysville
Moravec =

Your statement - "It wasn't until the late1990s that Wild protection was in place" is off by about a decade and 1/2.

In 1984 escapement goals for wild steelhead for the entire Boldt case area were develop. Not only was that the first major effort over a larger attempted on the west coast it was also the first time where attempts were to measure the escapement of wild fish (where hatchery and wild fish are mixed).

Starting in the winter of 1983/84 (earlier in couple of basins) mark selective fisheries (wild steelhead head release) became a commonly used management tool to manage for increased wild steelhead escapements.

Steeliedrew -
If one is concern about hatchery/wild steelhead interactions and the long term productivity of the wild population on basins like the Skagit or Snohomish wild brood stock programs would be more than a magnitude more impactful than the current Chambers Creek program.

While wild brood stock programs can be successful in producing fish for harvest (or in extreme cases last resort rescue programs) in is virtually impossible to develop a wild brood stock that is well integrated with the wild population. To do so the brood stock needs to representative of the wild population.

I agree with Todd on both WFC and WSC.

curt

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#896890 - 06/06/14 10:29 AM Re: Wild Fish Conservancy's current fight [Re: Smalma]
steeliedrew Offline
SRC Poser

Registered: 11/04/10
Posts: 2143
Loc: Snohomish
From what I understand from one of the wdfw emails I received, a brood stock program for the skagit is set to be researched during the 12 year hault on smolt releases. Are they not planning to research these programs on our other Puget sound streams?

Also, here's a thought...why not boost the Cowlitz back up to being the hatchery juggernaut it once was back in the day and guarantee way less pressure on our streams. Give the people a grocery river like we once had. let's face it...it's a far cry from what it was.

I won't even waste my time and money to go sit in a boat parade on the coast in the next few years.
_________________________
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"Dude...where's your boat!?" Team runaway drift boat prostaff.

Big Stick 2012: "EVERY thought of my being, is in regards to being a Hi-Tech Predator and I relish the role."

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