Went up to Icicle on memorial day weekend and fished the mornings by the hatchery. We went over to talk to the fish and game to see what was happing and to view the amount of fish in the hatchery. We had asked the F&G about the latest report. She had said that their were only 102 fish in the pens. they released the other 300+ back out to the river because they did not want their quota of 1200 fish from the first school and wanted a mixed for the capture. Understood.
But what she had said was we can fish 400 feet below the hatchery, (no problem yet). Well all the indians were fishing in front of the ladder and had surrounded the hatchery opening from shore ramps and was hooking the fish left and right, I had asked other if they had any luck and few were cauught. Whats up with the indians being able to fish in front of the hatchery ladder while everyone else cant. They should make them fish below like everybody else.

I do believe that they should be equal. For the 18 years that I have been living my parents taught me that everyone is equal. Well, is everyone equal? That is my question to you.

Chris they get 50%!!! Equal has nothing to do with it!!

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Tight Lines!!

This spring the NMFS and Col. Inter-Tribal Comm. decided to grant the Col. Tribal Indians rights to net & sell Col. mainstem springers for the first time in 23 years, all thru May, because there were so many excess hatchery fish. They did NOT consider giving even a small quota of finclipped hatchery Col. springers to us sportfishers, who paid much more than our share for. The Indian netters took hords of these fish along with killing a few of the Fed. ESA protected native springers! That's 100% of the "harvestable" salmon within the treaty's 50% of "harvestable" salmon & steelhead! And now I have to hear that they are getting a larger percent of tributary fish by special (UNFAIR)fishing area rights too??? Since unethical lamebrains seem to be determining this rediculous situation, do you suppose that the Tribal Commission is trying to start another Indian-Euro War??? I hope not, especially for their sake!! I also hope that some form of sanity returns to salmon allocation soon!!!!! Is anybody else getting more than pissed off? -- Edit Addendum: I won't erase what I said above in a moment of anger. That would be lame to dodge accountablility. But I will emphasize that the above only raised serious questions, and was not a proclamation. - RT

[This message has been edited by Reel Truth (edited 05-31-2000).]

We can't sue the indian tribes but we sure as hell can sue our government. We need a organization that will help us stick up for our rights. Anybody know the name of the group who sued Oregon State for clubbing salmon? Maybe they can sue the federal government.... so they will sue the tribes for our rights since we can't. The government should be held accountable for their inactions on our behalf.
Tight Lines


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Marty
www.steelheader.net
marty@steelheader.net

I'll try to pose this to the Mountain States Legal Foundation, headed by William Perry Pendley. They don't have any problem challenging the government.

IT'S QUITE CONFUSING TO ME WHY THEY'D EVEN RELEASE THESE FISH BACK IN THE RIVER. THE MOST EFFICIENT USE OF TIME AND MAN-POWER WOULD BE TO ALLOW THE NATIVES TO BACK THEIR TRUCKS UP TO THE HOLDING PENS AND CLEAN AND ICE DIRECTLY.
EVEN BETTER CUT A DEAL WITH IGA AND LET THEM PICK UP THE FISH AND JUST SENT THEM A CHECK IN THE MAIL!

What I don't understand is what in the hell the Indians are going to do with those dark-ass springers!? It's not like the Icicle fish are chromers or anything. You bonk 'em and they turn black, however, their meat quality is still good like the upriver brights. It was mentioned that they were "hooking fish" so I don't know if they were keeping them for subsistence or commercial purposes. If they were retaining any for commercial use they must smoke 'em or something but I just can't see these fish going to the market for sale. Do the Indians sell those(dark)upriver brights that they get too?? Sorry, but I can't imagine that dark fish are marketable.

On another note, the Icicle springers are a 100% hatchery run. If the state has enough in the pens for next years smolt production, or will soon enough, then I would rather see the Indians take 'em where un nontribies can't fish, i.e. like right in front of the hatchery and not at the mouth of the Icicle or in the Wenatchee where they can scoop the fish up in a gillnet all day long.

Life is short...fish hard!!


[This message has been edited by SAUKit2em (edited 05-31-2000).]

how about recycling the extra fish back downstream for us sportsters to get another chance at them. they do this on other rivers. as for the indians it seems like a nightmare you can't wake up from. they sure don't care about what we think of them or the about the situation so must not have any desire to heal relations with the reat of society. HOW can this be stopped????? as much as I dislike the actions of hardcores like greenpeace or who some call treehuggers that put spikes in trees to be cut, maybe their tactics will have to be used on Indian abusive unfairnesses?

Hey fishlips; why is alowing these people to harvest surplus hatchery fish an injustice! Sounds like your a little bit jealous to me. After all you did get get first crack at them and just let them swim by.

The only way I see to stop the tribal fishing is a constitutional challenge and claim discrimination on basis of race/cutural background. The Icicle makes me less mad than the Hump. At least both sides are fishing the Icicle. *Smack* *whack* just giving the dead horse a couple more blows.

Just another example of tribes "fishing in common" with the other citizens of this state; aided and abetted by the WDFW. What a crock! Oh well, soon we'll all be too busy putting up our unsafe and insane fireworks stands to worry about a "snag and bonk" fishery.

Hey MickeyMouse,

How in the hell could you mix up justice with jealousy? You ask how is this situation an injustice? I'll try to explain this to you but I'm not confidant that you will have the intelligence to understand it. The non-indian sportfishermen of the Northwest have paid more than our share to propegate these hatchery springers by purchasing fishing licences and paying fishing tackle surcharges that you probably aren't even aware of, as well as pay taxes and higher power rates. Yet the Indians are given extra opportunity to get more special rights beyond the 50% of harvestable fish treaty provisions, which is grossly outdated and unfair by any measure of intellect (despite Judge Boldt's rediculous misinterpretation of "sharing the fish in common with" so that he wouldn't get cut off by his Indian wife), here at Icicle Creek after already getting special rights to net springers earlier out in the Columbia this year where sportfishermen weren't allowed to fish for them at all! These are a 100% hatchery run. Were there even springers in this creek waaaaayyyyy back in another lifetime when Indian treaties were signed? You don't see any injustice here Mickey? And spare us the ludicrous argument that the "Indians were here first" [Bleeeeep!]! Just because they hiked across the Bering Sea landbridge after the last iceage and split into different tribes before our ancestors boated over the Atlantic doesn't mean they owned the N. American continent anymore than the U.S. owns the moon! The natural laws of the world at that time were survival of the fittest! Anywhere on Earth. Evolving people or animanls alike. Some of the survivors differed in how they dealt with their conquered. The Indian tribes that conquered other Indian tribes primarily for land and resourse aquisition didn't share the spoils of land and fish with the conquered tribes, they just simply killed them all off! Then when these conquering tribes got conquered by the dudes that boated over to the other side of the continent, they were given land and half the fish. Unlike what they were willing to allow the Indian tribes that they had conquered earlier! Right or wrong, that was the primative law of the world at that time and it was one earth. Those treaties which lacked forsight should have expired along with the times, just as did public street hangings and stagecoach robberies. Now how in the hell is it that unlike every other ethnic race on this continent in today's world the Indians should get rediculous special rights to take fish we paid for to sell for more money than they are already getting over and above welfare and other special interest money they are getting? The answer is that they shouldn't! Do you see any injustice there Mickey? Probably not, you're just a mouse so you can drop out of the discussion. For any others without natural logic that still think that today's Indians have some kind of intrinsic rights over others because their tribe raiding ancestors walked around here before Euro ancestors did, do you then think that since Anglo-Euros got here before Asian, African, Korean, Russian, and South American ancestors that today's Euros should get special rights over them? NO. And they DON'T! Neither should present day Indians that sit back and live off all other present day people's taxes!! They should have long ago been allowed to work and play by the rules the rest of us do. Actually forced to do as the rest of us have.

Be thankful that God even still lets us enjoy the fruits of a land that we so savegely have STOLEN from the Indians in the first place!

"CHEROKEE NATION WILL RETURN!"

[This message has been edited by wubee (edited 06-02-2000).]

Wow! What opposite takes! Interesting opportunity for some opinions and questions for sure. Fishtick's take is harsh but does have some credible valid points. There is history of Native American tribes taking land away from other tribes. Was that "stollen" land, or was it the primative "law" of the land at the time? If Euro settlers stole land, so did the Indians before that. Neither was right, but I agree that's how the history of the world was and had been up to that time; and even beyond. Importantly, all of our ancestors were more primative and did wrongs. But that should not determine what happens now. Fairness based on present conditions should prevail now! Wubee, I am glad you believe in God, because it's very obvious that He intended that all races occupy this continent and all continents. (Is that you Mark Lindsey? I'm a fan.) - RT


[This message has been edited by Reel Truth (edited 06-02-2000).]

The reason it happened was inevitable...the way it happened was inconceivable...my family has enough native blood to get some of these freebees but a long time my grandfather decided that were Americans and should have no special rights over one another.This is such a joke,I grew up on the Nisqually during the hostile times of the Bolt decision,I was young and could not understand why they were fighting over fish?...I'm 40 and I thinks this is such [Bleeeeep!],I could ramble on about this allday...what a waste of time,the amount of money generated my sportsman in this state and the fact that some of us VOTE we could make a difference...what's it going to take when are we going to say enough is enough

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Row Quietly and fish a Catarft ----<'))>>{
Release all Wild Fish

[This message has been edited by Osprey (edited 06-02-2000).]

I was just curious if the same tribe fishing at the Leavenworth hatchery also fished the lower Columbia with the nets? Anyone?

Geeez fishlips take a chillpill.

Just trying to make a little humor here. Back the truck up to the tanks...Cut a deal with IGA... come on lighten up.

when was the last time you got laid??
prozak maybe.I think you need a day off. Go fishin and reeeelax

Had your intellect level figured Mickey. Thanks for the affirming it. My long response was an obvious answer to your question and dis post to me on 6/1. Very obvioulsy not to your 5/31 post that you chose to quote from in your 6/2 lame avoidance post above. I think it is you that needs a review of the meds you're on. WHen you get that accomplished try to repost something intelligable here to do with this very serious important subject.

Fishtick, The flaw in your reasoning as I see it is that western Washington tribes were never conquered by "the dudes that boated over to the other side of the continent..."
Instead the goverment intered into a treaty, nation to nation, in order to own the land. If you have a problem with the treaty (and you do) don't blame the Indians. They didn't write it or interpet it, non-Indians did.

[This message has been edited by potter (edited 06-02-2000).]

Potter is 100% right!!!! Thanks Potter you beat me to it.

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Tight Lines!!

The way I see it is that the state F&G is scared to cause any conflicts among the natives. We as sportfishermen do pay a lot of fees and do our part to keep our rivers thriving for the future. But is our future for the good of the natives only? I think that affirmitive action does not belong here.
I am not jealous that I cant fish at the ladder but I am frustruated when their is no limits for the natives as far as fishing goes. I saw a guy that weekend carry a least a dozen fish back to his car. we need to estabalish a fair rule of play here, and that is I don't know. I guess the best thing is buy a license and follow the rules and that is fair enough.

I just want to let fishtick know that he has my vote for president!!!

The same government that REQUIRES our children to pledge their allegiance to "One nation...indivisible,..." RULES that we are really two nations sharing common geographic boundaries. Anybody confused?

Can't we just enjoy being able to fish a river that has not been available for a long time. This is a beautiful spot. I was there midweek a week ago. I was around the local guys who were fishing they were great no whiners. Very happy for the opportunity. Anyone who fishes like the tribal fisherman were doing cannot call themselves a sportfisherman who needs a spillway?

Potter and Dick,

What you saw as a flaw in my long post could be an oversight on your part. This whole thread had dealt with tribes of the Columbia region, mostly east of the Cascades, thus the unconquered Western Wash. tribes you brought in are not a factor in this discussion. The unfairnesses mentioned were of Col. tributaries such as Icicle Creek and the mainstem Col. Indian springer netting and selling of fish thru May that was far above any "50% of fish deemed harvestable". In fact, it was 100% of fish the NMFS & Col. Tribal Comm. deemed harvestable. ZERO % for sportfishermen that paid for these fish. While it's true that sportsmen get to have dwindling limited sportfishing seasons on some tributaries, so do the Indians. And a lot of good guy Indians that have a sporting attitude do sportfish along side of us! But on top of the utter outright Col. injustice fiasco, how could the Col. Tribal Commission, with reluctant abettance from the NMFS and Wash./Ore. Fish. Dept., then rub very unethical salt in an unfair big wound by allowing Indians to also slaughter stacked up springers by a hatchery gait. Hardly intelligent or just, especially in today's climate. That's why I wondered if the powers within the Tribal Comm. are trying to stir up a modern day uprising, rather than consider cultural healing fairness?? Does anyone reading this thread know them so they can ask them to read and respond to the issues here on this BB? As for W. Wash. Tribes Potter, are they staying within the treaties you mentioned, particularly concerning the taking of salmon & steelhead on the Oly. Pen?? Sure I am among a throng of modern thinking people that dislikes those treaties (you read the credible reasons why in my other long post), whether they were orchestrated by primative dumbshit Euros that don't exist anymore, or not! I am also among many who HATE the cheating abusive overharvest of these fish above treaty provisions! Especially the Indian take of wild native fish. Both are simply indefensible! Now you are welcome Potter or Dick to correct anything that is actually definitively wrong within my posts, and once enlightened I will appologize. Think before you try to correct claims of Indian overharvest issues on the Oly. Pen, because there could be a witness list as long as an Indian net, along with some pictures (I have been told. I don't personally have pictures). What do you say now? And for God's sake, please don't attempt to point out some anchient Euro wrongs trying to justify modern Indian wrongs! For a man that does such will be the fool! ....... By the way, I dislike having to use the labels Indian or Euro or African American. Unfortunately, this society makes it necessary in order to discuss inequities, such as those discussed here, because this society still wrongly makes labeled divisions among us. I don't believe in someone being a Euro or an Indian. Rather, I believe people are either good or bad, right or wrong, honest or not, and especially either fair or a hypocrit. ... Oh, and those that know how to catch fish and those that don't.


[This message has been edited by Fishtick (edited 06-03-2000).]

Fishstick,
Have you ever studied the early history of comercial netting of the Columbia? How OUR forefathers RAPED that beautiful river!!! What they did to the run of 100lb kings that use to spawn in Canada How about the MILLIONS of pounds of fish they had to throw over the barges cause the caneries didn't have room to process. You want to talk about rotting fish!!!! Oh, how about the DAMS!!! As far as the Oly Pen. lets talk about the Elwa. There USE to be 100lb KINGS on that river until OUR forefathers put the FIRST mayjor dam on any river in the states. This river had those 100lb KINGS also. MY (white) forefathers did more HARM to these fish than all the tribes put together. Back when they were RAPING the Columbia the tribes were not fishing with NETS!!! Enough said

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Tight Lines!!

[This message has been edited by Dick (edited 06-03-2000).]

I wish people would quite saying"our forefathers" or we raped the Columbia, etc. My forefathers had NOTHING to do with it. Some whites screwed it up big time. Yes they are to blame but myself and many others are not. I get tired of paying the price for something I had no part of.The dam on the Elwa was put in by private industry to supply power to private industry I believe (My ancestor was milking cows in Wisconsin).

Don't punish the sons for the sins of the father.

Your right about the thread being aimed at Col. River area and maybe I'm too sensitive (is that possible on this board . I guess I was replying to the last part of your post:

"that still think that today's Indians have some kind of intrinsic rights over others because..."

However, I think both sides have way too much ammo to play the blame game. We would be better off working towards fixing issues; for instance, trying to get more money for better inforcement of all fisheries. Maybe develop better management tools and methods. It's all going to take money and cooperation.

[This message has been edited by potter (edited 06-03-2000).]

Right on Bruce! Comercial fisherman raped the Columbia,(no one related to me) We need to modify treaties and increase law inforcement as potter mentioned across the state.

Im in on this.... I'm getting so F##*$#g tired of hearing about Sh#t in the past that we cannot change We need to make our voices heard NOW so we canmake some changes to modern day issues here...The reason this hole post started was aquestion:is it fair HELL NO!!!!!!!!

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Row Quietly and fish a Catarft :)----<'))>>{
Release all Wild Fish

Dick,


You are certainly correct about the lack of foresight and fish run damaging affects of dams and commercial netting that your forfathers did. Where you are very incorrect is to package and target all present day people with white skin for blame. I'm a white caucasion whose ancestors came over to this country after Indian treaties were signed and were farmers who had nothing to do with dams (they got their water from nearby creeks in eastern Montana). Even though your forefathers apparently were involved and to blame (are you sure about that?), you should not be held responsible and blame yourself for what they did before you existed! You should consider what can be done now! For example, since you prefer to catagorise people by skin color, there are many white people attempting to correct the wrongs of your forefathers with a strong movement to get the government to remove dams, starting with 4 Snake R. dams and the tradgic one on the Elwa. Even though you are not responsible for the past wrongs, perhaps if you get involved in those causes you can exponge the unfortunate strong guilt that you wrongfully carry within your heart. More importantly you can help correct things now, instead of uselessly dwelling on the past!!! You have come very close to being the fool I warned about in my previous post. And you can see what other people think about that in reply posts! ..... Potter, I have read many of your posts and get the impression that your ancestors were Native American? I don't care. What I do care about is the fairness and goodness that I sense about you from your second reply post. Perhaps you prefer to appropriately live in today's world? If so, you have the opportunity to help correct some of the wrongs stated above about unfair fish take by present day Indians. Let's all live within today's conditions and work together to correct wrongs and inequities.


[This message has been edited by Fishtick (edited 06-03-2000).]

Fishtick,
No, I don't blame my self. I have three relatives who are retired com. fishermen. I blame them for what they did. I was just tired of people bashing the natives. I should have worded it better. Believe me I carry no guilt at all!!! I have been envoled in the removeing of the dams (Elwa) amongst other things for thirty years!! It makes me sick to think about those huge fish gone forever thats all. Next time I will word it better.

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Tight Lines!!

When I posted this question it was to ask a question, I am not here to say that the natives are the bad seed. It's affirmitive action, if any one group was treated differently it would not be fair, it just happened to be the natives have this special rights, lets just make it equal.

Just a little gas on the fire here. The problems all described above are pretty much isolated to Washington state.. The other states with the same issues have done a lot better job of looking forward.. No nets, no keeping wild fish etc. I have been hoping that the WWA that you guys are trying to start will get you sport fisherman somewhere.

SPECIAL RIGHTS WERE GRANTED BY THE TREATIES AND YOU WILL NEVER CHANGE THEM SO LIVE WITH IT AND QUIT CRYING AROUND LIKE A BUNCH OF SNIVELING BRATS, BE CAREFUL WHAT YOU WISH FOR NEXT YOU MAY JUST LOOSE HALF OF your WILDLIFE.

Sloth... don't even get us started on wildlife Like... Elk herds that our sports dollars have tried to restablish only to be slaugtered by the tribes and now you want more hey you guys killed all your'e Elk leave our's alone like the Hamma Hamma and Dosewalips just to name a few

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Row Quietly and fish a Catarft ----<'))>>{
Release all Wild Fish

[This message has been edited by Osprey (edited 06-05-2000).]

A couple more cents:

Some have reported that the treaties are old or outdated, that this isn't the way things are done now. Age has nothing to do with a legally binding document. Our Constitution is older than the treaties. As society progresses, the Constitution has been 'updated' by amendments that reflect societal standards present at the time of the amendment. Given that the treaties are legally binding by the U.S. and various Tribal Nations, it will take a similar degree of legal amendment to 'update' or overturn them. Not something the WDFW (or NMFS for that matter) can do by itself.

Amendments are made when the bulk of society deems it necessary and starts the political or legal process for change. In the case of the Indian Treaties, I'm afraid that the bulk of society is pro-Treaty and we sporties, like it or not,are a small special interest group.

I prefer to think of this situation from a legal perspective and as a whole we are better off with laws that can't be changed on a whim. Issues of fairness, ethical behavior, ethnic division, and such are bandied about to support ones position rather than to look at the reality of the situation. This is when things start to rapidly digress.

For example, there have been several posts, worded variously and tinged with PC, that basically state that Indians are bad when they don't act like the rest of us. Right or wrong, ethical or unethical, this is a legal argument when it comes to fisheries. Its not worth getting worked up about and its wrong to place blame on WDFW, the Indian Commission, NMFS, the Tribes, or 'outdated' treaties. Another example is the mention of 'affirmative action'. This is not affirmative action. Treaty Rights are not special rights, but arrangements negotiated by land owners years ago for the transfer of that land from one hand to another.

In the specific case of Columbia River springers, this may very well be a case where the allocation of fish does not follow the rule of the treaties. I think this is what sporties should concentrate on so that such allocations are not made in the future. I for one would like to know the specific and official reasoning behind the allocation, or lack thereof, to the sporties.

I guess I'm posting this in response to what I consider some pretty carved in stone legal stuff (at least for now), but folks get around this because of a lack of knowledge or the convenient blame target in the Tribes. Because the Tribes can do some things that we cannot, we throw about arguments like "unfair rights","special rights,"we paid for this", when this really misses the point and simply starts a cascade of fingerpointing and blame. Just like the Constitution, the Indian Treaties are the law of the land and it will take a major Federal challenge to change.

If netting is ever going to be diminished, its going to take a concerted effort between the public (not just sporties), the Feds (the courts), and the Tribes. Its going to be hard enough without excessive emotional finger pointing.

[This message has been edited by obsessed (edited 06-05-2000).]

[This message has been edited by obsessed (edited 06-05-2000).]

Right on obseesed!

Obsessed,

From what little information I can find on the allocation of this run of Columbia hatchery chinook is that the feds want to keep the bycatch of ESA listed wild fish to a minimum. The tribes were basicly given the whole bycatch quota for their fishery becuase they are going to be the last group to be restricted for conservation measures.
P.S. I am not saying this is right or wrong, it's just my intrepretation of the information I have read.

OBSESSED,
you are right on the mark!
By the way? Are you a lawyer or did you sleep at a Holiday Inn Express last night?

Neanderthal - The bycatch of ESA native springers are taken only in Indian nets. 40% of this spring's run, and a majority of next spring's expected bigger run, are adipose fin-clipped. Thus, sportfishers can carefully release the rare native ESA fish that they might catch and only keep the marked hatchery fish we paid for. IF THEY WOULD FAIRLY AND PROPERLY ALLOW US! For all those that talk of the apparent long shot to constitutionlly amend the portions of Treaties dealing with salmon & steelhead allocation, thus their position of just live with it, there is not the proper balance of recognition that the Treaties are not being fairly adheared to on behalf of sportfishermen. There are many examples but the most outrageous, that some posters keep ignoring, is that the Col. Tribes got 100% of springers deemed harvestable of the excess hatchery mainstem Col. springers this year and none for the sportfishers! How does that conform to these supposed air tight Treaties (50/50 "in common with")?? While you did give brief mention of this outright quantitative misjustice Obsessed, you gave much more weight to sportfisher plaintiveness and a perception of anti-Indian sentiment here. I don't sense anti-Indian sentiment. I sense anti-fairness sentiment here, as the topic asked (Fair or Not?)! - RT


[This message has been edited by Reel Truth (edited 06-05-2000).]

RT,
I understand the frustration with this situation. I am just the messenger. In my opinion the whole salmon recovery situation has turned into an ungodly mess. Anyway here is a link to what I found on this issue.
www.newsdata.com/enernet/fishletter/fishltr99.html#7

Thanks N.- Interesting and revealing article. Apparently the WDFW & ODFW have sued the NMFS and Col. Tribes over both this unfair Col. springer allocation and, according to an article in the Vancouver Columbian, over the Col. Tribes asking and likely to get all of the allocation of Fed. ESA Col. fall chinook! This is what will likely close sportfishermen off the Col. fall 'nook run! I certainly hope the suit is successful- no Boldt type judge would help! It's good to know that the states are going to bat for us at least. But what is going on here? This is outside Treaty power isn't it? The Col. Tribal Commission has a seemingly mysterious power over the NMFS (National Marine Fisheries Service - Feds), who have power over the states. Did the Feds get hoodwinked into a pow wow pipesmoke of some scarystrength pyote with a hashpipe bongwater chaser before the decisive meetings or what?? Now there is some legitamate basis for anti-Indian sentiment (at least with the Col. Tribal Comm.)!!! - RT

[This message has been edited by Reel Truth (edited 06-06-2000).]

I don't see the tribes as the enemy on this, they didn't turn the Columbia River into an industrial machine at the expense of the salmon runs. In a perfect world all citizens would share equally in abundant salmon runs. How very far from that world we are! One part of this allocation problem I don't like is the private back room dealing that is going on between the tibes and the nmfs. They need to get in out into the open and tell us what is going on with press releases. One little window into all of this that I have found is the newsdata.com enernet/fishletter. Every sportsfisherman should get on their e-mail list. Another related article of interest on this subject- www.newsdata.com/enernet/fishletter/fishltr101.html#7