Obsessed, I was saving that next question

Cedar R, First, this is not a personal attack. Just some comments to your post.

Non-tribal persons may think that the tribes are the "favored ones" but believe me the tribes do not share that feeling.

In a nut shell, tribal fishermen and non-tribal fishermen are to split the harvestable portion of the fish 50/50. If that system fails are the tribes at fault? Except for the Quinaults and Yakamas, WDFW decides who fishes and when. The tribes have a treaty right to catch their half with a net. Non-tribal fishers use nets and sport for salmon and sport for steelhead. Sure nets can't tell a wild from a hatchery but other management tools are used to target the right species such as web size, timing, and real-time catch sampling for hatchery composition. It is also true that with the large numbers of non-tribal fishermen that there is a significant mortality from sport fishermen. My point, neither method is perfect. Improved science and enforcement are the answer.

There are about 2000 Quinaults. I would say about 100 make some amount of money from fishing during the year. The rest pay income taxes. The fishermen do pay a tribal tax on their fish based income. There is a non-tribal casino in Aberdeen called Sydneys, it is not owned by the tribe or tribal members. Every game in the Quinault tribal casino is legal in Washington. Jacklighting is illegal for Quinaults both on and off the reservation. Unfortunately, both non-tribal and tribal fishers and hunters break the laws. Again, better enforcement is needed.

There is no punishment; there is only the legal document of the land deal (treaty) that was forced on the tribes. I wonder how much money the Government collects on property taxes in western Washington each year from land that was taken from the tribes?


[This message has been edited by potter (edited 08-23-2000).]

I think this is a good debate, and I can see it from both sides (no offense to tribal members who think my view cannot express how THEY feel). I understand the jurisdictional issues, and the attempts that SHOULD be made to compensate the tribes for land and resources taken from them. We paid european countries for land as part of the Louisiana Purchase, Alaska, and other land purchases, so why shouldn't we pay the tribes? Our government did the deal, and tht's how it is.

But tell me this. Why am I unwelcome on the north side of the Skok if I'm standing there fishing, but I am welcomed when I pull into the Quik-Stop there off Hwy. 101? I'd like to be welcomed on ALL the reservation, rather than only select pieces of it. You know how a river is; a great drift from one side, bogus from the other. It's the same water, just not fishable from one side of the river. THAT'S when I'm bothered by this whole policy. Although I wouldn't let this affect my view of the Skok tribe, I must say it bugs me.

See ya on the south side........


Fish on...........

On the east side of the state the Native Americans are very involved in the hatcheries and have been invaluable in helping restore some Salmon/Steelhead runs on many rivers.Before "we" go after the "Indians" lets clean up our own backyards (commercial fishing). lester

Obsessed, I find it hard to believe that the Indians are not supposed to net below the lower bridge. Where did you hear that? I see them down on the lower river netting all over. I have seen them come right out in front of me an net a tidal hole I was fishing. Also there was a huge wastage down on the lower river last year, Chrome bright kings, they just took the eggs from the hens, and left piles of rotting carcases. It sure stunk too.

Potter, maybe you can help straighten me out here.I've always understood that the Indian people are exempt from fed.income taxes. Also, when I go buy that $30,000 truck uncle sam atttaches another $2400 pesos onto to it that the indians are also exempt from. I would appreciate it if you could clarify for me just where are the indians paying these taxes that support the fed. gov'mt that turns around and hands them "welfare" checks. I've had friends work in construction with tribel people and they have said that their checks don't look the same at the end of the week as the American Citizen's...

if the state isn't going to do anything about it, we should do it our selves by destroying the tribal nets on the rivers and beating the hell out of the damn indians. i really hate those #ssholes.

Steelyhorn Hunter, Here is what I know. Tribal members who make a money fishing or working in a fish related field (i.e. hatchery worker) can choose to be tax exempt. All other tribal workers are not tax exempt. However, a Yakama tribal member working on the Quinault reservation does not get this choice, you must be Quinault. If you choose to go tax exempt you also lose social security and I believe unemployment benefits.

As far as buying a vehicle, tribal members who live on or near the reservation get their state taxes back after the vehicle is payed off. Hope this clears things up. Updated info on the vehicle taxes. I checked on this and things have changed since I bought my last rig. It's not true that you have to wait till it's payed off. sorry

[This message has been edited by potter (edited 08-23-2000).]

[This message has been edited by potter (edited 08-24-2000).]

Gonefishin we tried that in the 70's. It didn't work then, it won't work now...

Jake, I heard it last weekend from a tribal fisher. I guess we'll see. It would be nice since I do have a couple of tidal holes below the bridge and bright quality fish congregate in them. Yeah, last year I arrived at my favorite just before low tide, when the receding water packs em in, and just as I arrive a tribal fisher shows up and runs a drift net through a couple of times. Supposedly it will be different this year.

Gone Fishing, it's this same inbred mentality that has gotten us to this point,You stand back a throw these little stupid *ss comments when it pleases you,It's time for the sherriff to step in again.
This topic always ends the same way ...very negative
The only way we can change the polices being enforced in this state is for us as sportsman to make a stand and be heard.
Blaming the Native Americans for the way things are is a joke they are just playing the game with the rules our Government has set forth.
If you want things to be different organize and be heard .
Pick a day and I'll be on the steps of the capital standing with all my fishing brothers ...place the blame where it belongs
....VOTE!!!!!! make a change

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Row Quietly and fish a Cataraft }<<(('>----<'))>>{
Release all Wild Fish

Hang in there Osprey, there is hope! Gonefishin will get his! (not to be confused with Gone Fishing, a good guy).

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Bob G.

Like my last reply,Everyone pointing finger's but just can't seem to get together and make something happen.I really don't have time to post complaint's about these issues,but rather spend my efforts focusing on doing something about it but can't do it myself.Nothing will change until we all as a group march to the capitol's front step's and be heard, until then I'll set back and just read the B.S. and shake my head. Good luck. STRIKE ZONE

Potter, Many of our differences have their basis in perceptions. These perceptions have evolved from experiences as uniquely individual as fingerprints or personality. The closest any of us are going to come to "walking a mile" in each others' shoes is to describe the journey we're taking and to listen as others do the same. The debate and discussion on this board can be helpful this way. Unfortunately, the open door encourages some to stick their head in and spew their self-consuming hatred. Gonefishin's post is way out of line! Your thoughtful and insightful posts are appreciated.

Native Americans need to become equal citizens. The people that took indian land are dead and gone. There is no land being taken from anyone who payed for it. By teaching native children that some dead white guy mis treated their ancesterors, and that the U.S. owes them a living is only hurting them. CedarR pointed out that preferential treatment to certain people just causes hatred from those who have to pay taxes,buy building permits, pay for medical insurance,ect.... It sounds harsh but we are only keeping them down. Again, casinos cigarettes, illegal fireworks,ect... is not much of a legacy.

Being of Irish and Scandinavian heritage I must have a potato field or lutefisk factory back in the old world, I can lay claim to 50% of...or at least the profits from those.
I have, as the good old boys from where I live would say " SUM BAD FEELINS" about how the native american alotment of natural resources is being handled. However, if you or I were in the same shoes as they are, would you try to get as much financial security out of the situation as you could (at least get a VISA/Mastercard machine for selling upriver brights out of you trunk)? I suppose it comes down to supporting what side of the ball you fall on.
In a perfect world everyone would say "OH, those fish stocks are fragile and we shouldn't touch them till they are healthy." But in reality the natives want those fish to support their lifestyles and the sportsmen want the same fish to support their recreation. Who has more rights morally? We know who has the political clout.

[This message has been edited by Chuckn'Duck (edited 08-24-2000).]

ChucknDuck, millions of years ago, when all the land on earth was one giant land mass, named Gonwanaland by the historians, they have calculated that the land in the Pacific NW used to be in the approximate position of Ireland/Scotland. I say claim your 50% now, your biological ancestry,predates the tribes by millions of years. [ by the way I am not making this up.]

Corkey, I hear what you are saying. I feel that Indians have more rights then American Citizens do. There should come a time that Indians step up to bat and take what life has pitched them as we all do. This may be off base but if they are a sovegn? nation they should take care of things like a seperate nation. This is not the case.

This is comment carries no weight because they are a sovergn nation and they have a treaty on there side. ---------No hard feelings on the subject just wanted to add my 2 cents.---------Fish on !!!

I've read a lot of sensible credible takes on this issue within this thread here. From Letty Potter's wisdom, to Cedar, Corky, C&D, Os, SZ, Dan S.,etc., we can begin to see the complexities and differing views of this situation. And with nothing personal against any individual Native American, AT ALL, I do think they should see the credibility in what some of us are saying about the unfair allocations accorded the Indians, based on a non-existant past. In particularly, Dan O.'s post really puts that into proper perspective; the limited importance of who occupied land, and even where that land was, before all of us present surviving human beings existed! - A couple other clarifications may be needed here? Ob., wasn't it a war of power position negotiations that the West. WA Tribes apparently had lost before we all existed? Now, weak minded rep.s of the U.S. gov. are losing a negotiating war over fish with the present day Tribes. And most of us sportfishers don't agree with it, but aren't allowed a fair voice in it. And here's another often mentioned item that simply seems so non-sensicle to me that I guess I need clarification! Hohwaiian, you stated that "we" (whoever that is) have pushed the Skoks onto a small patch of land. To my understanding they aren't being held prisoners there. Correct? I think that they are allowed the same freedoms that all the rest of us multi-ethnic Americans have; to go anywhere away from that "patch" that they have the courage and fortitude to go. And to work and live anywhere they want with the same rights as the rest of us! Correct? But do they afford us the same rights and fairnesses on their land, and with our fish? Very obvioiusly not! - RT

[This message has been edited by Reel Truth (edited 08-25-2000).]

Obsessed, I didn't know you meant this was supposed to be a new thing. That would be really cool if they stick to that. Come to think of it, I don't think I have seen em down there this year, although I don't think I have been down there on net days. Thanks for the info!

Come on guys, you all have been beating a dead horse since I have been on this board.

Take it from a retired bureaucrat, you will NEVER make a change until you show united political muscle. Everything you have put to a vote has lost at the polls. Politicians who thumb their noises at you are re-elected. ***** all you want, but until the polls are afraid of you, YOU WILL GET NOTHING. "Fairness" is not an operative word in politics, "Expediency" is.

Get it together or learn to live with it.

John