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#667270 - 03/03/11 04:01 AM The War You Dont See
Sky-Guy Offline
The Tide changed

Registered: 08/31/00
Posts: 7232
Loc: Everett
John Pilger, perhaps one of the best independent journalists of our time, recently released this film that I would call a Must See for EVERY American.

Sit down and spend an hour watching this.








_________________________
You know something bad is going to happen when you hear..."Hey, hold my beer and watch this"

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#667313 - 03/03/11 12:41 PM Re: The War You Dont See [Re: ]
AP a.k.a. Kaiser D Offline
Hippie

Registered: 01/31/02
Posts: 4533
Loc: B'ham
I haven't seen what you posted but I've been feeling a little sick after reading about this story a couple days ago. It looks like it is finally starting to get a little press. This is EXACTLY why we'll never truely "win" any war like this. You can't kill a bunch of kids collecting firewood and then expect to be considered the "good guys".

Imagine this happening here. And imagine how you'd feel if these were your kids. How far would you go for revenge? Probably all the way.

http://www.cnn.com/2011/WORLD/asiapcf/03/03/afghanistan.isaf.civilians/

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#667332 - 03/03/11 01:58 PM Re: The War You Dont See [Re: ]
StinkingWaters Offline
Repeat Spawner

Registered: 12/12/09
Posts: 1032
Loc: Termite Country
I'm with FP here. Not real shocked.

I'd like to see it but I'm pretty sure I already know the ending.

This doc should be mandatory viewing for those who still believe;

"we need to fight them over there so we don't have to fight them over here".

Forkin' nonsense.
_________________________
On a long enough timeline the survival rate for everyone drops to zero.

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#667366 - 03/03/11 04:43 PM Re: The War You Dont See [Re: StinkingWaters]
Sky-Guy Offline
The Tide changed

Registered: 08/31/00
Posts: 7232
Loc: Everett
Stinkingwaters, I'd urge you to watch the movie then weigh in with your observations.
I know you may feel you already understand the concepts here, but there is a lot of truth in this movie I wasn't aware of. It may teach you a few things too.


_________________________
You know something bad is going to happen when you hear..."Hey, hold my beer and watch this"

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#667374 - 03/03/11 05:31 PM Re: The War You Dont See [Re: Sky-Guy]
StinkingWaters Offline
Repeat Spawner

Registered: 12/12/09
Posts: 1032
Loc: Termite Country
Oh I'll definately watch it.

Finding the time to is another story all together.

From what I've read about it, there are quite a few self indictments from some Rather familiar names grin

What I don't get is how it's all allowed to play itself over and over again. Ex: Our proposed military involvment in Libya.
_________________________
On a long enough timeline the survival rate for everyone drops to zero.

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#667416 - 03/03/11 08:32 PM Re: The War You Dont See [Re: StinkingWaters]
RowVsWade Offline
River Nutrients

Registered: 11/08/06
Posts: 3405
Loc: Island Time
Whilst there is some truth to the "movie".... a "movie" about propaganda from propagandists decrying propaganda is irony at it's best.

Daniel Pearle should've watched this...he may feel differently about those that cut his head off.
_________________________
"...the pool hall I loved as a kid is now a 7-11..."

If you don't like our prices bring your wife down and we'll dicker.

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#667468 - 03/03/11 11:24 PM Re: The War You Dont See [Re: RowVsWade]
ColeyG Offline
Ranger Danger

Registered: 02/08/07
Posts: 3098
Loc: AK
Wow. Not even sure what to say. I have no working knowledge of these things as I don't have a TV or read the paper either. My trust for anything other than what I see, think, and feel is pretty minimal. I thought the documentary was pretty well done and intelligently put together. I hope, for our sakes, that it isn't as bad as it seems.

Sadly, I think our country is screwed, and the rest of the world isn't far behind.
_________________________
I am still not a cop.

EZ Thread Yarn Balls

"I don't care how you catch them, as long as you treat them well and with respect." Lani Waller in "A Steelheader's Way."

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#667483 - 03/04/11 12:26 AM Re: The War You Dont See [Re: ColeyG]
cobble cruiser Offline
~B-F-D~

Registered: 03/27/09
Posts: 2256

Originally Posted By: ColeyG
Wow. Not even sure what to say. I have no working knowledge of these things as I don't have a TV or read the paper either. My trust for anything other than what I see, think, and feel is pretty minimal. I thought the documentary was pretty well done and intelligently put together. I hope, for our sakes, that it isn't as bad as it seems.

Sadly, I think our country is screwed, and the rest of the world isn't far behind.


I agree Coley.

The first half of the documentary where the family is led out of their home by gunpoint and the little girl is terrified and in tears absolutely breaks my heart. At that point I just wanted to reach through the screen and rescue those children. Broke me up quite a bit.


Edited by cobble cruiser (03/04/11 12:29 AM)
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#667537 - 03/04/11 11:45 AM Re: The War You Dont See [Re: cobble cruiser]
John Lee Hookum Offline
River Nutrients

Registered: 10/12/01
Posts: 2505
Loc: Area 51
I agree it's a Doc to see for those that care about themselves and their family. It's about each one of us, and the ramifications that deserves and demands our attention.


Edited by John Lee Hookum (03/04/11 11:46 AM)
_________________________

Whoever undertakes to set himself up as a judge of
Truth and Knowledge is shipwrecked by the laughter
of the gods.

-- Albert Einstein



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#667570 - 03/04/11 01:57 PM Re: The War You Dont See [Re: RowVsWade]
big moby Offline
Carcass

Registered: 08/28/08
Posts: 2188
Loc: varies
Originally Posted By: RowVsWade
Whilst there is some truth to the "movie".... a "movie" about propaganda from propagandists decrying propaganda is irony at it's best.

Daniel Pearle should've watched this...he may feel differently about those that cut his head off.


what is your point?
_________________________
Roger That

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#667636 - 03/04/11 10:46 PM Re: The War You Dont See [Re: big moby]
Dogfish Offline
Poodle Smolt

Registered: 05/03/01
Posts: 10979
Loc: McCleary, WA
I got halfway through the program, and I'm not watching any more.

Saying this is an objective piece of war commentary makes as much sense as calling Fox News objective. It is a piece of crap narrated by some asshole with a British accent.

I have friends "over there", and I have a number of friends and neighbors who have been there and back a number of times. From what I'm seeing so far, this piece is just short of a back handed insinuation of improper conduct by all people involved in this, including the troops on the ground.

Folks, it is our leaders who are the assholes here. It is the corporations like Haliburton who are the assholes here. Time to stop being the world's police force (except for heading over to the Gulf of Aden and sinking every boat suspected of being pirates).

War is hell, and it needs to be horrorific and extremely violent. If it isn't, you have Vietnam. Sorry about the collateral damage, but the folks who lived there had a choice. Stay with the status quo, or rise up and overtake the assholes. Looks like most of Northern Africa and the Arabian Peninsula is figuring this out, finally.

Saddam needed to be killed. He was the reincarnation of a madman on the scale of Stalin and Hitler. Seriously bad actor.

Have a good night. I have some .40 S&W to reload.
_________________________
"Give me the anger, fish! Give me the anger!"

They call me POODLE SMOLT!

The Discover Pass is brought to you by your friends at the CCA.

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#667661 - 03/05/11 12:40 AM Re: The War You Dont See [Re: Dogfish]
Sky-Guy Offline
The Tide changed

Registered: 08/31/00
Posts: 7232
Loc: Everett
Dogfish I respect your position but think feeling sorry about the collateral damage falls quite short when said damage is to such an extreme. That's one of the strongest points being made in this film...that Civilian Casualties are grossly undervalued in the way the US/NATO conducts their war campaign.
You are nearly making an argument that its acceptable collateral damage to "inadvertently" kill nearly 1 Million Iraqi citizens to remove one vicious dictator...who wasn't as vicious (WMD) as our government proclaimed... using a media which parroted every false word.
_________________________
You know something bad is going to happen when you hear..."Hey, hold my beer and watch this"

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#667675 - 03/05/11 01:49 AM Re: The War You Dont See [Re: Sky-Guy]
John Lee Hookum Offline
River Nutrients

Registered: 10/12/01
Posts: 2505
Loc: Area 51
Originally Posted By: Sky-Guy
Dogfish I respect your position but think feeling sorry about the collateral damage falls quite short when said damage is to such an extreme. That's one of the strongest points being made in this film...that Civilian Casualties are grossly undervalued in the way the US/NATO conducts their war campaign.
You are nearly making an argument that its acceptable collateral damage to "inadvertently" kill nearly 1 Million Iraqi citizens to remove one vicious dictator...who wasn't as vicious (WMD) as our government proclaimed... using a media which parroted every false word.
thumbs
_________________________

Whoever undertakes to set himself up as a judge of
Truth and Knowledge is shipwrecked by the laughter
of the gods.

-- Albert Einstein



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#667677 - 03/05/11 02:02 AM Re: The War You Dont See [Re: ]
Dogfish Offline
Poodle Smolt

Registered: 05/03/01
Posts: 10979
Loc: McCleary, WA
I have no issue with you Riley, just the piece of crap film. I like you a lot, but I never let others think for me, I don't align myself entirely to any one party, and I sort through all of the crap out there to find the kernels of truth. Unfortunately I have to do a lot of sorting.

The sad thing is that folks out there align themselves to the left or to the right, and then take everything their party and other like-thinkers spew as the gospel truth.

We are pretty much screwed for the next 5-10 years based on how things are going, and unless we demand real change, not the status quo that Obama has brought us, this same cycle of boom, bust, and war will continue.

Notice how Obama has started to rattle his sabre a bit about Libya? Depending on how things go against Ghadafi, we will likely see limited US military involvement there within the next 90 days. If he gets to bold, we'll bloody his nose.

The reason war needs to be so horrorific is to remind us of the cost, and keep us from doing it all the time. Fortunately, and unfortunately, the US has seen very limited casualties compared to our foes, so WE fail to learn the lesson that we are teaching others.

It is time we stop being the world's police force, which is something I think most of us agree on.
_________________________
"Give me the anger, fish! Give me the anger!"

They call me POODLE SMOLT!

The Discover Pass is brought to you by your friends at the CCA.

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#667710 - 03/05/11 01:37 PM Re: The War You Dont See [Re: ]
Steelheadman Offline
River Nutrients

Registered: 03/15/99
Posts: 4214
Loc: Poulsbo, WA,USA
I just watched the first clip. Reminds me of Fahrenheit 911. I don't have anything but respect for our soldiers. I also believe we were justified going into Iraq after they invaded Kuwait. I don't believe Shock and Awe was justified. Bush II and his cronies squandered our economic surplus we had under Clinton and ran up our current deficits. I miss the days of $0.87/gallon gasoline and a balanced budget.

Now we are in a civil war Republicans vs Democrats. Republicans vs unions. Republicans and Democrats vs public workers. Right wing conservatives vs moderates. Non-union workers vs union workers. Politicians vs the middle class. The rich vs the lower class. This war is playing out in the capitol of Wisconsin right now. Its not the workers fault the economy is in the tank. The seeds of our economic depression were planted in waging a war against Iraq over WMD that was based on false intelligence. We are paying the price for Bush's and Blair's arrogance.
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I'd Rather Be Fishing for Summer Steelhead!

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#667711 - 03/05/11 01:41 PM Re: The War You Dont See [Re: ]
Direct-Drive Offline
ExtenZe Field Tester

Registered: 11/10/09
Posts: 8060
Loc: Vancouver, WA
Originally Posted By: Chuck S.
Originally Posted By: Dogfish

It is time we stop being the world's police force, which is something I think most of us agree on.



+1,000,000

Yes, this.

I still worry that the radical Islamists will seize this, their golden opportunity to dominate these nations in turmoil.
There has never been anything like this.....it could be 1979 x 6 or 7 (I lost count) shocked
_________________________
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#667805 - 03/05/11 09:51 PM Re: The War You Dont See [Re: Steelheadman]
Irie Offline
River Nutrients

Registered: 11/26/06
Posts: 4358
Loc: South Sound
The reason our economy is in the tank is because of debt spending. We put a two-front land war in Asia on a credit card. The only part of the plan that didn't work for BushCo was that the chickens came home to roost BEFORE the GOP stuffed what they cash could into some suitcases and fly home to their mansions. I think that was their plan. Empty the treasury directing all the dough into their own private companies, fly the coop, then blame the whole disaster on the next guy in office....which the GOP is STILL attempting to do.

Our economy will never fully recover until we end outsourcing & offshoring and shut down companies that hire illegals and stop war profiteers from dictating our entire foreign policy.

The deregulation the banks gained under Gingrich's Contract With America and the hemorrhage of domestic living wage jobs (union) caused by the GOP's Free Trade Agreements, later combined with BushCo's massive debt spending was far more than ANY economy could ever handle.

Unions are not our enemy. Unless you are a billionaire industrialist.
And no one on this board is. As long as working stiffs keep swallowing the line of Ayn Rand horseschit, they'll continue to allow the wealthy elite to turn our republic into an oligarchy that makes tsarist Russia look like a fair deal.

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#667884 - 03/06/11 02:07 PM Re: The War You Dont See [Re: Steelheadman]
John Lee Hookum Offline
River Nutrients

Registered: 10/12/01
Posts: 2505
Loc: Area 51
Originally Posted By: Steelheadman
I don't have anything but respect for our soldiers. I also believe we were justified going into Iraq after they invaded Kuwait. I don't believe Shock and Awe was justified. Bush II and his cronies squandered our economic surplus we had under Clinton and ran up our current deficits. I miss the days of $0.87/gallon gasoline and a balanced budget.

Now we are in a civil war Republicans vs Democrats. Republicans vs unions. Republicans and Democrats vs public workers. Right wing conservatives vs moderates. Non-union workers vs union workers. Politicians vs the middle class. The rich vs the lower class. This war is playing out in the capitol of Wisconsin right now. Its not the workers fault the economy is in the tank. The seeds of our economic depression were planted in waging a war against Iraq over WMD that was based on false intelligence. We are paying the price for Bush's and Blair's arrogance.


+ 30,000,000 thumbs


Edited by John Lee Hookum (03/06/11 02:22 PM)
_________________________

Whoever undertakes to set himself up as a judge of
Truth and Knowledge is shipwrecked by the laughter
of the gods.

-- Albert Einstein



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#668002 - 03/07/11 01:26 PM Re: The War You Dont See [Re: Steelheadman]
big moby Offline
Carcass

Registered: 08/28/08
Posts: 2188
Loc: varies
+1
_________________________
Roger That

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#668093 - 03/07/11 09:16 PM Re: The War You Dont See [Re: big moby]
Sky-Guy Offline
The Tide changed

Registered: 08/31/00
Posts: 7232
Loc: Everett
Dogfish we're a lot alike in the fact that we don't align to one party or the other. I wasn't attacking what you said in any way, just pointing out some issues the film raises that are factual and too often ignored by Americans.

Good journalism presents facts and data without bias, then allows the viewer draw their own conclusions. I think John does a great job of that here.

Every day, we see more and more independent media present more and more facts and data that the wars in Iraq, Afghanistan, etc are unjust and a failure of good American policy...with one of the main point's of my post and this film being, that the media and war machine hide the real facts.





http://english.aljazeera.net/indepth/opinion/2011/03/20113718714585594.html#


While we have been fixated on successive Arab breakthroughs and victories against tyranny and extremism, Washington is failing miserably but discreetly in Afghanistan.

The American media's one-obsession-at-a-time coverage of global affairs might have put the spotlight on President Obama's slow and poor reaction to the breathtaking developments starting in Tunisia and Egypt. But they spared him embarrassing questions about continued escalation and deaths in Afghanistan.

In spite of its international coalition, multiple strategies, hundreds of billions of dollars, and a surge of tens of thousands of troops, the US is unable to conclude its longest war yet or at least reverse its trend.

Recent "reports" from the war front have been of two kinds. Some official or analytical in nature and heavily circulated in Washington portray a war going terribly well. On the other hand, hard news from the ground tell a story of US fatigue, backtracking and tactical withdrawals or redeployments which do not bode well for defeating the Taliban or forcing them to the negotiations' table.

For example, while the US military's decision to withdraw from the Pech valley was justified on tactical need to redeploy troops for the task of "protecting the population", keen observers saw it as a humiliating retreat from what the Pentagon previously called a very strategic position and sacrificed some hundred soldiers defending it.

Likewise, strategic analysts close to the administration speak triumphantly of US surge and hi-tech firepower inflicting terrible cost on the Taliban, killing many insurgents and driving many more from their sanctuaries.

But news from the war front show the Taliban unrelenting, mounting counterattacks and escalating the war especially in areas where the US has "surged" its troops. And while the majority of the 400 Afghan districts are "calmer", they remain mostly out of Kabul's control.

What success?

Those with relatively long memories recall the then defence secretary Donald Rumsfeld's claims that most of Afghanistan was secure in early 2003 and that American forces had changed their strategy from major combat operations to stabilisation and reconstruction project.

But the Taliban continued to carry daily attacks on government buildings, US positions and international organisations. Two years later, the US was to suffer the worst and deadliest year since the war began.

Today's war pundits are in the same state of denial. For all practical purpose, Washington has given up on its counterinsurgency (COIN) strategy devised under McChrystal and Petreaus.

Instead, it is pursuing a heavy handed and terribly destructive crackdown that includes special operations, assassinations, mass demolitions, air and night raids etc that have led to anything but winning the country, let alone its hearts and minds.

The killing of nine Afghan children last week - all under the age of 12 - by US attack helicopters has once again put the spotlight on the US military's new aggressive methods.

The results are so devastating for the conduct of the war and to Washington's clients, that President Karzai not only distanced himself from the US methods, but also publicly rejected Washington's apology for the killings.

Nor is the recruitment and training of the Afghan forces going well. Indeed, many seem to give up on the idea that Afghan security forces could take matters into their hands if the US withdraws in the foreseeable future.

Worse, US strategic co-operation with Pakistan - the central pillar of Obama's PakAf strategy - has cooled after the arrest of a CIA contractor for the killing of two Pakistanis even though he presumably enjoys diplomatic immunity.

Reportedly, it has also led to a "breakdown" in co-ordination between the two countries intelligence agencies, the CIA and the ISI.

But the incident is merely a symptom of a bigger problem between the two countries. A reluctant partner, the Pakistani establishment and its military are unhappy with US strategy which they reckon could destabilise their country and strengthen Afghanistan and India at their expense.

That has not deterred Washington from offering ideas and money to repair the damage. However, it has become clear that unlike in recent years, future improvement in their bilateral relations will most probably come as a result of the US edging closer to Pakistan's position, not the opposite.

All of which makes one wonder why certain Washington circles are rushing to advance the "success story".

Running out of options

The Afghan government' incapability to take on the tasks of governing or securing the country beyond the capital, and the incapacity of the Obama administration to break the Taliban's momentum does not bode well for an early conclusion of the war.

To their credit some of Obama's war and surge supporters realise that there is no military solution for Afghanistan. Clearly, their claims of battlefield successes help justify the rush to talk to the Taliban.

But it is not yet clear whether the presumably ongoing exploratory secret negotiations with the Taliban are serious at all, or will lead to comprehensive negotiations and eventually a lasting deal. The last "Taliban commander" Washington dialogued with in the fall turned out to be an impostor - a shopkeeper from Quetta!

If the Taliban does eventually accept to sit down with Obama or Karzai envoys, the US needs to explain why it fought for 10 years only to help the group back to power.

Secretary of state Hillary Clinton has begun the humiliating backtracking last month: "Now, I know that reconciling with an adversary that can be as brutal as the Taliban sounds distasteful, even unimaginable. And diplomacy would be easy if we only had to talk to our friends. But that is not how one makes peace."

Facing up to the reality

The mere fact that the world's mightiest superpower cannot win over the poorly armed Taliban after a long decade of fighting, means it has already failed strategically, regardless of the final outcome.

The escalation of violence and wasting billions more cannot change that. It is history. The quicker the Obama administration recognises its misfortunes, minimises its losses and convenes a regional conference over the future of Afghanistan under UN auspices, the easier it will be to evacuate without humiliation.

Whether the US eventually loses the war and declares victory; negotiates a settlement and withdraw its troops, remains to be seen. What is incontestable is that when you fight the week for too long, you also become weak.

All of which explains the rather blunt comments made in a speech at the end of February, by US Defence Secretary Robert Gates when he said "... any future defense secretary who advises the president to again send a big American land army into Asia or into the Middle East or Africa should 'have his head examined,' as General MacArthur so delicately put it."

Amen.





_________________________
You know something bad is going to happen when you hear..."Hey, hold my beer and watch this"

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