I thought I'd start a new thread rather than add on to the really long one below.

Salmo, as usual, thanks for your comments. I wish we could all take the time to become as educated in order to be more productive in conversation and argument about these highly emotionally charged topics (highly emotional for me, at least!). Skookum, I appreciate your comments as well. Welcome to the board!

Has anyone wondered if incidental mortality due to C&R is not the focus of the closure, but that an unaknowleged, but obvious, problem with C&Run, i.e., catch nate, run for the truck, is in the state's mind?

Those of us who fish the Stilly, Sauk, and Skagit spring runs have all seen it happen, and I shudder to think about how many fish are actually killed by those idiots during the C&R seasons.

If this were the case, I doubt that WDFW would want to come right out and say "we can't enforce a C&R season effectively, so we're not going to have one". If they did say this, then there would never be any occasion for such a season, regardless of the run forecasts.

I don't know if this is the situation or not, but I'd be curious to hear your opinions. Remember that just a few years ago Harriet Spanel and the Wildcat Native Steelhead Bonkers tried to get a similar law passed, one that would not allow C&R without effective enforcement. Of course, protecting fish was the last thing on their minds for even proposing that bill.

We all realized then that effective enforcement is all but impossible except at terminal fisheries like Blue Creek or Reiter Ponds, expecially with the cuts Enforcement has taken over the last decade.

Is it possible that by taking the stance that they are now that WDFW is actually protecting the possibility of having the C&R seasons reinstated at a later time by pointing to incidental mortality (a problem that will become less relevant as run size increases) rather than to lack of enforcement (a problem that will never become less relevant)?

On the other hand, I may have frozen a few too many brain cells fishing yesterday. Brrrr. I had ice on my guides from six in the morning until eleven, and then they started icing up again around 3:30. Didn't seem to bother the fish too much, though. Many chums now have sore lips, as well as a couple of silvers and a late native summer run. Two bummers of the day: Broke another rod, which is two in a month, and my hands were so cold in the morning that I couldn't figure out that the reason my scissors wouldn't cut through my skein of eggs was become my thumb was in the scissors, too. Ouch.

Later, all.

Fish on...

Todd.

Thanks, Todd. I don't think diminishment of C&Run is on WDFW's mind regarding this proposal. You know how enforcement is fairly slack during the usual C&K season and then it becomes rare during C&R season? Well, it becomes next to non-existant when the river is closed to fishing. Actually there is a reason that is almost logical for that. An agent told me a few years back that they didn't patrol C&R much because most agents don't personally agree with it, it's difficult to enforce, and they have the ready excuse that they need to patrol spring deer and elk poaching, where it is easier to get convictions and the fine is a lot higher.

When I lived on the Skagit, a lot of the locals believed that steelhead poaching decreased after C&R was introduced in 1981. The reason is that there were too many eyes on the water with all those C&R anglers out there. When the river was closed, the poachers pretty much had it all to themselves.

Closing the rivers this next spring may eliminate C&R incidental mortality, but it won't eliminate fishing mortality. I would just about guarentee it.

Sincerely,

Salmo g.

Hey, I hope I don't sound like some kind of shill for the WDFW on the other thread. I disagree with a lot of their past policies, and question the methodology that led to the closures this spring. I guess I'm just trying to focus on the positive (if their is one) and figure out how to keep our fragile fisheries available to us. In my talks with Curt Kraemer on the subjects you mentioned, he feels that the incidental mortality is somewhere between 5 and 7%, not counting what he calls "over the bank mortality" which is almost (given the level of enforcement) impossible to determine. I'm not sure what the impact of this is in determining the closure, but since they think we're going to have a severely depressed run, they feel any mortality is dangerous. On another subject, there is a strong feeling among many biologist and oceanographers that this year's returning class of 2-salt fish will be the first to have lived their entire ocean life under excellent conditions, and we are seeing reflections of this in the robust returns of other 2-salt fish, such as coho and summer steelhead in 2000 (which the WDFW grossly underestimated). I suggested to the powers that be this morning that they use this winter's returns of 2-salt hatchery fish as an indicator for reopening the spring C & R fishery. As in, if we get unexpectedly high returns, the 2-salt fish may more than make up for a lower than average 3-salt and repeat spawning fish population. The response was that they have found no correlation between any other species, or for that matter, hatchery winter runs and wild fish of the same year class, and are unwilling to bet on improved ocean conditions. I had to at least try. Other than that, there's no way to make an in-run assessment the way they did with the emergency coho opener, so we will be stuck with their decision, even if we have a stellar run, as predicted by some at the UW. What to do now? I have no idea. Golf, anyone.

Okay fellas ... my blood is boiling now.

The numbers are critically low ... I'm sad to hear this news and despite the negative impact this decision will have on area businesses and recreational anglers, I must stand up and applaud the state's decision to put their foot down.

HOWEVER !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! We must look at two very important issues here. First off, the state itself says that the tribe's fishery will have a 5% impact upon this run. While the state's numbers are cloudy, it is probably a safe assumption (looking at BC and Oregon studies) that this 5% would likely be perhaps even a tad more impact on the run than a C&R season. Why then is one group allowed to have a 5% impact, and the other isn't????? I thought conservation issues were to be burdened equally!?

Secondly, and more importantly, we must evalute and address how we arrived at this dreadful situation. Once again, the state has followed their model guidance and managed a fishery into a near-total collapse.
Why has there been a kill fishery of any sort on runs that have steadily declined? Why has there not been intermediary steps such as full C&R throughout the run or selective fishery regs???

How long will it be before things go belly up on the last rivers in the state deemed "healthy" (north coast rivers)? Will the state recognize that pressure on these rivers will likely double or triple as a result of the closure of at least five streams around the state's population core? Will the state make adjustments to the regs there?

Soon, doubtful, and probably not are the answers I expect to see to these last three questions.

I believe the day is here for anglers to ask these questions of the state and hold the managers accountable for their actions (or lack thereof) that have resulted in the current crisis that we are ALL faced with.

It's time to go to court and ask for some sort of an injunction to put wild steelhead stocks statewide on a release basis, and even perhaps selective regs until a full reasessment of how the fisheries are managed.

It saddens me that many anglers will lose the chance to fish theis winter / spring, but it's important that the fish are placed first and if the numbers are as low as believed, then that's the right step. There's little chance we'll see a fishery in the near future on these streams even if we go to court and win, and I don't believe this should be a short-term goal anyhow. However, if we wish to have have opportunites to catch (and release) wild fish 5, 10 , or 15 years down the road ... we're going to have to start the process now and rebuild those stocks that need it, and protect those stocks that are still "healthy".

I have been talking to some friends (who have been talking to others) about perhaps beginning some litigation centering upon these problems. Perhaps we can start up some sort of Wild Steelhead Defense Fund and find us an attorney that could help us out at some sort of a reduced fee until we get enough money together to pay whatever it takes to force the state to eliminate the gross mismanagement policies that have been in place.

If we can get something like this rolling ... I'll put up three trips for auction to start things off ... that's a thousand bucks to start. Anyone else??

Bob. I hate to say you told us so, but you did. Over a year ago, you questioned Washigntons policies on killing wild steelheads, and cited the fact that the situation for these fish would go from a catch and kill, to a total closure. You also commented that there would be no intermediate steps along the way. You were right. Don't your managers understand the potential economic value of these fish. For god sakes, people are flying to Michigan to fish the PM for steelheads and Salmon, staying in hotels, hiring guides, renting cars, buying tackle, eating in local restraunts,etc. Something is terribly wrong with this scenario.

Don't know how much I can help out here, but I would be willing to donate a two day trip over to Wisconsin with hotel, and travel from Austin Minnesota up for auction to help you raise some money. There are plenty of folks on the river, but there are plenty of fish. I know it would cost some coin to get here, but I'll do what I can. Otherwise, I'll doante some moola to your funding.

Thanks and good luck with the fight. Someone has to take up this battle before things go to hell completely.

Bob,
You are definately on the right track. We must hold the WDFW accountable for not only the mismanagement of steelhead stocks but all fish stocks statewide. They also should step to the plate and take the tribes to task on a net harvest. GILL NETS ARE NOT SELECTIVE! The bigger question is- can you or anyone else pull enough sportfishers together statewide, all on the same page, to make this happen? That is and will continue to be the $64,000 question!

Perhaps the state should take the stance that if the incidental net catch is above estimates [5%] the net fishery is shut down. Plus who reports the numbers of net caught nates? LETS TAKE IT ALL THE WAY BOB!

------------------
would the boy you were be proud of the man you are

Bob, thanks for your response.

As soon as an official "collection fund" is set, my money is on the way. Its time we all put our money where our collective mouth is.

Face it, there HAS to be at least one attorney in our state who is an avid fishermen who would jump at the chance to make some history.

I also want to include one last piece of information I got fron Mr. Kraemer, in response to my point that his initial letter failed to address the killing of wild fish....

As far as the kill season contributing to the poor returns. This is a red herring. the escapements that are the parents to this years return are 7,700 fish and 6,500 fish. the 7,700 fish which should have produced the major of the fish last year did not do so. 7,700 is one of the higher escapement numbers. Since 1984 when the 6,500 escapement goal was set the average escapement of wild steelhead to the system has been over 7,000 fish a year until the last two years. Bottom line is that the limited wild harvest (it has rarely exceeded 20% -tribal and sport combined) is not what has contributed to the problem.

The issue on wild keep seasons why fish above the escapement needs are available is one for the users hash out among yourselves. As a management agency we have provided diverse opportunities and exposed anglers to a variety of experiences. It is up to the anglers to vote on how they want to use the avialable fish. You do that be giving your time to lobby for your view point. That is a much more productive use that "crabbing" on the river bars on how messed up WDFW is or how little I know about steelhead.

Bob,first off I would like to say I am at the end of my rope.These people in these positions of power must think they can do about whatever thet want without any ramifacations.It is not the closure that has me so upset but the sneeky way it has been handled.Kramer has admitted that they have known about smolt survival,ocean conditions and diminished returns so why have they aloud a catch and kill season for so many years.Bob I own THREE RIVERS MARINE the new alumaweld dealership in woodinville and we would be happy to start the fund off with $1000. donation.Kramer needs to step down.

Bob, Keith here with Salmon Bay Mortgage one of your sponsors. I know this is not a board for solicitations and that is not my intent. I am willing to submit $400 per closed mortgage loan to a steelhead defense fund. If you fisherman out there are going to get a loan anyway let me quote you a great rate and we can both do our part to contribute. My banner is the little man in the boat and my contact info. is on my website. Hope this helps

summerrun, give me a ring! Talkin about refinancing anyway. Dont know if ya want me though, soon I'll be a struggling guide in the spring as the Skagit and Sauk are my home waters.
Bob,...I'm in Brah!!! I'll donate 3 trips as well.
I am absolutely gut sick of the Mis-management of our fishery. Time to take a serious stand AS A UNITE!!!!! J---<")(\(\)>{

Free Drifter,
Asking Curt Kraemer to step down is rather like killing the messenger who delivers bad news. Curt is a fisheries biologist and can make recommendations, but has only limited impact on policy decisions; hardly the person to be blaming. If you wonder why the WDFW is so determined to allow the harvest of steelhead, attend a few Fish and Wildlife Commission hearings and listen to all the "sportsmen" pleading with the commissioners to "ignore the elitists and flyfishermen and think of the poor out-of-work Forks logger who just wants to take a fish home to feed his hungry family". In the words of Pogo 'Possum "We has met the enemy and he is us".

Mr. JohnnyCoho, you might be amazed at what we can do. Check your email my contact info. is on the way. If I get the sporting shops and some guides spreading the word I would estimate I could contribute $5,000 to $10,000 plus over the course of a year. Lets all get off our asses and do something about it.

There's also three trips coming from me, which Johnny and I can hopefully run at the same time, possibly towards the end of February on the Skagit system. Big ass BBQ'd lunch, and a kiss good bye to the river we have spent so much time on.

I am busy "lobbying" as we speak, and will keep Bob posted with what I come up with.

I am up for bidding on a guided trip offered by JohnnyCoho or Bob-thats pretty stand up. We are at the mercy of those who are hired to run or is it ruin our resources. I vote for Salmo G.

[This message has been edited by Coho (edited 11-17-2000).]

I think it's a great idea to raise money to fight the cause. I'll try to help any way that I can. If I can't fish the Sauk, then my land is not worth as much to me. If I have to start selling acreage, so be it. I am too young to see my steelheading future fall apart on a river that I have invested so much in; both financially and emotionally. Spring steelheading on the Sauk is everything to me. I live the other ten months of the year in a blurr only truly living for March and April on the "Ranch".

I am also going to protest this measure and draw as much attention to the cause as I can. If I see "Wild Steelhead" for sale in the store that is from any of the closed river systems, then I am going to get my friends together an picket outside the market/store for as long as we can stand it. I am going to make it very, very hard for any commercially caught "wild" steelhead to be sold from any of the closed systems. I will also raise hell in front of any restaurant that is selling "wild" steelhead from the same closed waters. If I have to hold a "Fish in" then I will. Just need to make sure the television cameras are rolling. Will you guys bring me my fly vise and STS mags so I don't get too bored in jail?

Justin
CEO, Sauk River Steelhead Ranch

Hello, everyone. Please read my post about "possible legal scenarios".

Thanks.

Todd.