I would guess that the only way we can define victory in Iraq is a country that is not a threat to us or Israel. I think to many people are taking Israel out of the picture. Lets not forget that Saddam was shipping money to the families of the Sucide bombers. I would guess that Israel is biting at the bit to assert themselves more in the region and we are trying our hardest to stop them. In the end we need to get them to change their basic philosopohy about life, which may not be possible. Has anyone read "The Haj"? The book is fiction, but lays out the belief that religious leaders of the middle east will never let the region prosper or be at peace, as the people will then lose the will to hate Israel. As it states in the book, if they are happy here, they will never see the need to go into Israel. All means necessary are taken to keep the people poor, angry, and in belief of a common enemy. No happiness, joy, or hope is allowed other than the hope of occupying Israel and destroying the infidel.