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#1012251 - 07/26/19 12:13 PM Pound Nets on the Columbia.
Chinook 1 Offline
Alevin

Registered: 03/14/18
Posts: 15
How is this going the be good for sports fishing ? Your thoughts please.

https://vimeo.com/310697782

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#1012255 - 07/26/19 12:37 PM Re: Pound Nets on the Columbia. [Re: Chinook 1]
Bay wolf Offline
Spawner

Registered: 10/26/12
Posts: 915
Loc: Graham, WA
Iím all for selective fisheries. Now, make it the law in all terminal fisheries!

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#1012259 - 07/26/19 12:52 PM Re: Pound Nets on the Columbia. [Re: Chinook 1]
bobrr Offline
Parr

Registered: 08/21/18
Posts: 73
I don't see how all the commercial (and tribal) fishermen that currently fish for Columbia River fish are ALL going to be able to do this. Who gets to put traps where? How do the traps upstream keep from getting "low holed" by traps directly below them? How many traps will it take to effectively catch fish? Are they willing to put the same effort into killing off all other means of commercial fishing as they are in killing opportunities for recreational fishing(which has a MUCH lower mortality rate on released fish)? Is it effective enough to remove all hatchery fish (or at least most of them) without other ways? I think it's a good thing if at all feasible in terms of practical applications. As a reasonable person I tend to believe that it won't impact the efforts to curtail opportunities for recreational fisherfolk by WFC as we are the lowest hanging fruit they can reach . Bob R

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#1012260 - 07/26/19 01:33 PM Re: Pound Nets on the Columbia. [Re: Chinook 1]
MPM Offline
Spawner

Registered: 12/09/08
Posts: 735
Loc: Seattle, WA
Good for sportfishing in the sense that it reduces bycatch of wild/threatened stocks that limit our overall fisheries. As others have noted, it does raise other potential problems (e.g., who gets to participate in this kind of fishery?)

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#1012265 - 07/26/19 03:04 PM Re: Pound Nets on the Columbia. [Re: Chinook 1]
DrifterWA Online   content
River Nutrients

Registered: 04/25/00
Posts: 4544
Loc: East of Aberdeen, West of Mont...

1. Concept sound good Ö. I've watched how wild fish are taken from a gill net, this is a better way

2. Strict standards must be in place.... set number of "traps", gill netting reduced until its 0 on the NT side.

3. Low holding, can be less painful by a lottery type system....Let's say there are 5 active traps, 100 NT netters, Ö. that's 20 netters per trap, paint 20 balls 5 different colors, assign each active trap a color......put all the painted balls in a container.....have each NT netter draw from the container, that would be his trap.


The drawings would have to be done quite often.....weekly ???? That way during a run, chances of having the "hot trap", would be shared.


Problem???? Yea, some one could get lucky and draw the "hot trap" more but that's life.


Would be easy to monitor, video cams could be used.


Sure would be a "up to date", current, of the amount and species of fish in the river system.


Sure would be nice to see all steelhead, released and not have to do the "gill net" show.
_________________________
"Worse day sport fishing, still better than the best day working"

"I thought growing older would take longer"

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#1012267 - 07/26/19 03:31 PM Re: Pound Nets on the Columbia. [Re: Chinook 1]
jgreen Offline
Returning Adult

Registered: 04/18/12
Posts: 255
Loc: Elma, WA
All good, except the fact that WFC is involved. Can we really trust their endgame? Do they want commercial and recreational harvest of hatchery fish, including increasing hatchery production back to historic numbers; or are they interested in using this as means to an end? To end all hatchery production.

This is a much better solution to gill nets. We all know that. Iím concerned that doing things different at the terminal areas isnít enough. As long as troll fisheries are raping over mixed stocks, it wonít matter. For some reason, Japan and other major fish buyers find a terminal area caught fish not as desirable as a ocean caught fish.

(I get it, sushi from river fish isnít as good, nor is it a good idea).

I donít trust WFC at all. We all know their solution would be to end all harvest and recreational salmon fishing, close all hatcheries and let salmon just spawn and repeat.

I was a hatchery terminal area yesterday. Thousands of fish moving through, everyone catching. Good times to be had. Some people came to look at the fish with their kids, the mom said ďthis would be so much more beautiful if everyone wasnít catching all these beautiful natural creatures!Ē I had to explain to her that the creek flowing into this body of water was chosen specifically because it didnít have much i natural occurring run. We were catching pinks. In an area that never had a historical occurring run of pink salmon. After an hour...I had to give up...no logic would make sense to the couple. They couldnít grasp that the hatchery was built purely for harvesting fish. Itís pretty much a 100% kill all hatchery fish facility. No chance of strays (God forbid a hatchery fish spawn outside of a hatchery).

The WFC wants ZERO hatchery fish. Period.

Good idea, but could someone else, who supports hatcheries get behind this? Please?

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#1012268 - 07/26/19 03:33 PM Re: Pound Nets on the Columbia. [Re: Chinook 1]
Larry B Offline
River Nutrients

Registered: 10/22/09
Posts: 2697
Loc: University Place and Whidbey I...
While they may be effective in selectively removing hatchery fish thereby undermining arguments from the anti-hatchery crowd and conversely allowing continued and possibly increased hatchery output there is a potential dark side for some recreational fishers.

That potential dark side? To the extent that they are used to remove "excess" hatchery fish which recreational fishers are going to be "corked" and face a significantly reduced opportunity in their favorite fishing areas?
_________________________
Remember to immediately record your catch or you may become the catch!

It's the person who has done nothing who is sure nothing can be done. (Ewing)

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#1012273 - 07/26/19 05:18 PM Re: Pound Nets on the Columbia. [Re: Chinook 1]
Carcassman Offline
River Nutrients

Registered: 11/21/07
Posts: 5466
Loc: Olema,California,Planet Earth
The devil will be in the details. Tribes will conti ue to be opposed because they don't want to selectively fish.

The killer for the recs is if the survival after release rate from that type of trap is better than from a rec fishery. There is an article coming out in AFS's Fisheries that will have survivals to way up river. A better survival means they can get more hatchery for per dead wild.

Because they can take a lot of fish in a short time, because they will be fishing in terminal areas, the brunt of their fisheries will likely be felt upstream. But they will have a very strong argument that they should get "more" of the hatchery fish because they kill fewer of the wild ones. I think I have heard that argument around here before...

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#1012277 - 07/26/19 05:27 PM Re: Pound Nets on the Columbia. [Re: Chinook 1]
Chinook 1 Offline
Alevin

Registered: 03/14/18
Posts: 15
These pound are not good for sports fishing at all. If the only fish that are passed above these nets are wild fish. Your going the screw all the sportsmen that fish the tributaries above the pound net.Hell the gill netters only fished 34 hours last fall and took 5% of the run which is about 4000 fish. These pound nets fish 24/7 taking hatchery fall Chinook and Coho that sportsmen won't be able to harvest.These pound are the result of a poorly written Columbia river reform policy.

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#1012279 - 07/26/19 06:12 PM Re: Pound Nets on the Columbia. [Re: Chinook 1]
Larry B Offline
River Nutrients

Registered: 10/22/09
Posts: 2697
Loc: University Place and Whidbey I...
Originally Posted By: Chinook 1
These pound are not good for sports fishing at all. If the only fish that are passed above these nets are wild fish. Your going the screw all the sportsmen that fish the tributaries above the pound net.Hell the gill netters only fished 34 hours last fall and took 5% of the run which is about 4000 fish. These pound nets fish 24/7 taking hatchery fall Chinook and Coho that sportsmen won't be able to harvest.These pound are the result of a poorly written Columbia river reform policy.


Fact: They fish when and only as long as they are allowed to operate.

As CM said, the devil will be in the details should this proceed.
_________________________
Remember to immediately record your catch or you may become the catch!

It's the person who has done nothing who is sure nothing can be done. (Ewing)

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#1012290 - 07/27/19 05:52 AM Re: Pound Nets on the Columbia. [Re: Chinook 1]
FleaFlickr02 Offline
River Nutrients

Registered: 10/28/09
Posts: 2869
Ummmm... It's a commercial fishing tool. I'll save you all the suspense: it won't improve sport fishing, ESPECIALLY if the wild mortality rate proves to be lower than the BS 10% they apply to incidental sport encounters. I can easily imagine a scenario where a wild run is estimated to be too low to allow a sport fishery, but because pound nets are assumed to take fewer wild fish, the NT commercials get to "clean out" the hatchery component while we sit on our couches.

Meanwhile, as has been pointed out, the Tribes will continue to take wilds in gillnets....

We may see a few more wild salmon survive, and that's a good thing, but as long as we have both tribal and non-tribal commercial stakeholders to share with, we're always going to end up scraping the barrel.

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#1012294 - 07/27/19 07:38 AM Re: Pound Nets on the Columbia. [Re: Chinook 1]
Carcassman Offline
River Nutrients

Registered: 11/21/07
Posts: 5466
Loc: Olema,California,Planet Earth
Flea is hitting the fear the Tribes have always had with selective fishing by recs. The better one faction (commercial/rec/tributary) is able to cleanly harvest, the less opportunity is available for the folks who are less selective.

Say, just as a for instance, that every Chinook hatchery in WA returned fish to specific streams where there was no concern for the wild fish. A fishery in that stream is, then 100% clean and can can take every surplus fish. The ideal fishery being a trap where broodstock is retained and the other fish available for consumption. Hard, then, to argue for mixed stock fisheries where there is all sorts of incidental mortality unless those stocks can take it. This is, of course, a very extreme example unless you happen to be talking about Baker Sockeye.

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#1012321 - 07/28/19 09:52 AM Re: Pound Nets on the Columbia. [Re: Chinook 1]
Chinook 1 Offline
Alevin

Registered: 03/14/18
Posts: 15
Larry B: It's not the easy to put those net in and out of the water. I've scene them camp down there on the shore fishing 24/7.

Flea: As of now there are no tribal gill nets fishing below Bonneville.

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#1012324 - 07/28/19 01:05 PM Re: Pound Nets on the Columbia. [Re: Chinook 1]
Larry B Offline
River Nutrients

Registered: 10/22/09
Posts: 2697
Loc: University Place and Whidbey I...
Originally Posted By: Chinook 1
Larry B: It's not the easy to put those net in and out of the water. I've scene them camp down there on the shore fishing 24/7.

Flea: As of now there are no tribal gill nets fishing below Bonneville.


Are you purporting that there is no "easy" way to either close off the entrance to the trap or, alternately, open an escape door?
_________________________
Remember to immediately record your catch or you may become the catch!

It's the person who has done nothing who is sure nothing can be done. (Ewing)

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#1012327 - 07/28/19 02:58 PM Re: Pound Nets on the Columbia. [Re: Chinook 1]
DrifterWA Online   content
River Nutrients

Registered: 04/25/00
Posts: 4544
Loc: East of Aberdeen, West of Mont...

Well here is my take.....If your livelihood is based on how good you get at operating "pound nets", then you'll get good at it. I've been to NOF meetings for the past 10 years....I can tell you the "hard core nt netters" are not into "hanging their nets up", IMO
_________________________
"Worse day sport fishing, still better than the best day working"

"I thought growing older would take longer"

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#1012337 - 07/29/19 12:07 PM Re: Pound Nets on the Columbia. [Re: Chinook 1]
cohoangler Offline
Repeat Spawner

Registered: 12/29/99
Posts: 1485
Loc: Vancouver, Washington
This is still an experiment.

They have demonstrated they can release wild fish, and that immediate harm is quite low. But they have not been able to show that the wild fish they handle/release will make it to the spawning grounds. The rate of pre-spawn mortality of released fish is still being estimated. But preliminary indications are that the pre-spawning mortality rate is alarmingly high. If so, that would suggest that handling adult fish this low in the river system results in much higher mortality than if they are handled higher upstream.

Presumably, if this gear type is allowed, the commercial folks will not get an increase in their allocation. They will still be able to catch their quota, and nothing more. I would expect the recreational angling allocation to remain the same too. But that's an open question.

The Tribes long-standing argument on wild/hatchery fish is further reinforced. This is, catching large numbers of hatchery fish before they get over Bonneville Dam reduces the Tribes catch since the proportion of wild fish will increase, and therefore the Tribes will exceed their ESA limits quicker (i.e., before they reach their 50% allocation). They have a good point. This will only make it worse. Ditto for the non-Tribal anglers on the Snake River, and on the Columbia upstream of McNary Dam. The number of hatchery fish that will be available for them to catch will go down.

This gear may be great if an NGO subsidizes the operation (in this instance, WFC). So if WFC funds the nets, they set it up, and provide staff to operate it, itís really easy and economical. The only thing the commercial folks have to do is run their boat up to it, and shovel in the fish. But if the commercial folks have to do the heavy lifting of setting it up, operating it, separating the wild fish from hatchery fish, and dividing the catch between various fishers, it gets complicated and likely uneconomical.

And itís not possible for each fisher to have their own pound net (as they would with a gill net). Itís likely that only one or two pound nets would be feasible on the Columbia. As such, I expect the commercial folks will strongly support this gear if an NGO is funding it and operating it. But once they have to fund/operate it themselves, their support may evaporate.

I'm not saying this gear can't be successful on the Columbia. I'm saying it's still an experiment that needs more work to see if it has a future.
_________________________
MSB

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#1012338 - 07/29/19 01:09 PM Re: Pound Nets on the Columbia. [Re: Chinook 1]
Chinook 1 Offline
Alevin

Registered: 03/14/18
Posts: 15
Larry B: yes they probably could lift the trap and stop fishing at the end of the day.I'm just try to point out this is not good for sports fishing And it might not be good for the fish in that warm summer water of the Columbia.

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#1012339 - 07/29/19 02:22 PM Re: Pound Nets on the Columbia. [Re: Chinook 1]
Carcassman Offline
River Nutrients

Registered: 11/21/07
Posts: 5466
Loc: Olema,California,Planet Earth
While they haven't tracked them to the spawning grounds the estimated survival of Chinook that were passing McNary was 99% and Steelhead was 94%. The math was beyond me but since it went through AFS's peer review I suspect they got the numbers right. While this isn't survival to the grounds, it os damn good.

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#1012548 - 08/05/19 02:07 PM Re: Pound Nets on the Columbia. [Re: Chinook 1]
Chinook 1 Offline
Alevin

Registered: 03/14/18
Posts: 15
Well groups like CCA and NSIA screaming for alternative gear on the Columbia. Have they got what they wanted at the expense of sportsmen. You bet they have with only wild fish being passed above these pound net. And how many of these pound nets will be installed in the Columbia. Just think if these pound nets were placed below tributaries like the Cowlitz ,Kalama and Lewis.Hell why not the Wynoochee and the Satsop. Sports fishing would be done as we know it. Will these pound nets create a pinch point for sea lions to destroy more of are fisheries. You bet they will sea lions are pretty smart animals.Remember pound nets were outlawed in the late 1930. So remember look at who you support before you spend your're hard earned dollars on out of state special groups.

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#1012552 - 08/05/19 03:35 PM Re: Pound Nets on the Columbia. [Re: Chinook 1]
Larry B Offline
River Nutrients

Registered: 10/22/09
Posts: 2697
Loc: University Place and Whidbey I...
Originally Posted By: Chinook 1
Larry B: yes they probably could lift the trap and stop fishing at the end of the day.I'm just try to point out this is not good for sports fishing And it might not be good for the fish in that warm summer water of the Columbia.


Okay, glad to read that we've established that fish traps do not automatically fish 24/7.
_________________________
Remember to immediately record your catch or you may become the catch!

It's the person who has done nothing who is sure nothing can be done. (Ewing)

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