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#1014240 - 09/23/19 07:07 AM Re: Willapa Policy Reveiw [Re: Rivrguy]
Bay wolf Offline
Repeat Spawner

Registered: 10/26/12
Posts: 1075
Loc: Graham, WA
Impunity for bad behavior, it seems, just breeds more bad behavior.

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#1014396 - 09/25/19 09:39 PM Re: Willapa Policy Reveiw [Re: Rivrguy]
Chinook 1 Offline
Fry

Registered: 03/14/18
Posts: 37
I just happened to go to the Willapa advisory group meeting the other night in Montesano. Funny i heard a couple of sports advisories admit that they were picking the crow out of their teeth.You see it was foolish to put all the production in the south bay. And try and kill the commercial fleet. There's little access to the south bay for sports. And the weather and wind can get you in trouble quickly on that little bay if your home port is Tokeland. I just can't believe people sometimes thinking they pay all the bills at WDFW. When in reality you only pay 28% of WDFW operating budget.And the tax paying non fishing public pays the rest for your sports hobby. I also think it funny how people are going to teach WDFW a lesson and not buy fishing or hunting licenses.Good that means less people on the water and in the woods. And to you Mr. NOAA fisheriers aren't you the one that killed the Cowlitz. With the elimination of the early chambers creek Steelhead that served as a world class fishery for some 60 years.And why would the department even want to work with people that just complain about every move they make.I'll bet you a dollar to a dime that none of the could do a better job. So stop complain and start working together sports, commercial and tribal. For the record i fish with a rod and reel.

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#1014400 - 09/26/19 06:57 AM Re: Willapa Policy Reveiw [Re: Chinook 1]
Bay wolf Offline
Repeat Spawner

Registered: 10/26/12
Posts: 1075
Loc: Graham, WA
Originally Posted By: Chinook 1
I just happened to go to the Willapa advisory group meeting the other night in Montesano. Funny i heard a couple of sports advisories admit that they were picking the crow out of their teeth.You see it was foolish to put all the production in the south bay. And try and kill the commercial fleet. There's little access to the south bay for sports. And the weather and wind can get you in trouble quickly on that little bay if your home port is Tokeland. I just can't believe people sometimes thinking they pay all the bills at WDFW. When in reality you only pay 28% of WDFW operating budget.And the tax paying non fishing public pays the rest for your sports hobby. I also think it funny how people are going to teach WDFW a lesson and not buy fishing or hunting licenses.Good that means less people on the water and in the woods. And to you Mr. NOAA fisheriers aren't you the one that killed the Cowlitz. With the elimination of the early chambers creek Steelhead that served as a world class fishery for some 60 years.And why would the department even want to work with people that just complain about every move they make.I'll bet you a dollar to a dime that none of the could do a better job. So stop complain and start working together sports, commercial and tribal. For the record i fish with a* rod and reel keyboard.


*fixed it for you... wink

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#1014419 - 09/26/19 01:24 PM Re: Willapa Policy Reveiw [Re: Chinook 1]
Salmo g. Offline
River Nutrients

Registered: 03/08/99
Posts: 13521
Originally Posted By: Chinook 1
I just happened to go to the Willapa advisory group meeting the other night in Montesano. Funny i heard a couple of sports advisories admit that they were picking the crow out of their teeth.You see it was foolish to put all the production in the south bay. And try and kill the commercial fleet. There's little access to the south bay for sports. And the weather and wind can get you in trouble quickly on that little bay if your home port is Tokeland. I just can't believe people sometimes thinking they pay all the bills at WDFW. When in reality you only pay 28% of WDFW operating budget.And the tax paying non fishing public pays the rest for your sports hobby. I also think it funny how people are going to teach WDFW a lesson and not buy fishing or hunting licenses.Good that means less people on the water and in the woods. And to you Mr. NOAA fisheriers aren't you the one that killed the Cowlitz. With the elimination of the early chambers creek Steelhead that served as a world class fishery for some 60 years.And why would the department even want to work with people that just complain about every move they make.I'll bet you a dollar to a dime that none of the could do a better job. So stop complain and start working together sports, commercial and tribal. For the record i fish with a rod and reel.


My initial inclination was to ignore your post, but since you singled me out for part of it I decided to reply in part, clearly against my better judgement.

I'm not sure where you get the idea that sportfishermen think they pay all the bills that keeps WDFW running, when it's pretty clear that they pay only a fraction, but it's a larger fraction than any other population segment pays. License fees account for 27% of the operating budget (2017-2019). Those are clearly paid by people who purchase hunting and fishing licenses, tags, etc. But license buyers are also taxpayers who contribute to state General Fund monies, so at least 10% of that 21% comes from people who hunt and or fish, with 85 to 90% coming from what I describe as "unengaged" taxpayers, people who pay taxes but don't hunt or fish. Then there's federal money which comes from both users (people who hunt and or fish) and non-users. That is a large chunk of money, some of it is Mitchell Act money that funds state hatcheries on the Columbia River system as mitigation for federal dams. So anglers are part of that taxpaying group. Then there is the Dingell-Johnson federal money, and that all comes from anglers who buy fishing tackle. The upshot is that anglers provides substantially more than 27% of WDFW's operating budget.

What your post doesn't address is why the 85% or more of WA citizens who neither hunt nor fish should have to pay taxes to support hatcheries to raise salmon to be caught in Canada or commercial fishermen in WA as a direct welfare subsidy. How does that make sense? OK, enough about budget and funding.

Do you really think I single handedly "killed" the Cowlitz? For the record, I made sure that TP's license included terms requiring safe, effective, and timely fish passage around its dams, both upstream and downstream. I also made sure that the mitigation requirements included sufficient hatchery production to fill the gap in natural production, measured in 5-year rolling averages based on historical runsizes, and measured in actual adult recruits, not just by smolt production. And those terms were included in the license FERC issued in 2002. So are you holding me responsible for decisions made by other people post license issuance? If so, why?

BTW, the FERC license didn't "kill" the Cowlitz. Survival of both hatchery and wild fish have declined in every river system, both those near the Cowlitz and those quite far away. If you think I have such super-humanly power to influence freshwater and ocean survival factors, that's really something. Thanks, I guess.

Telling people to stop complaining is an attempt to stifle change and ensure the status quo. That's where we get more of the same. Telling sport fishermen to work together with those who stab sportfishing in the back hardly seems like constructive advice.

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#1014442 - 09/26/19 03:47 PM Re: Willapa Policy Reveiw [Re: Rivrguy]
Chinook 1 Offline
Fry

Registered: 03/14/18
Posts: 37
Bay wolf. You fixed it just like you fix things with Ron Garner.You shoot you mouth off and Ron caught you in your BS.So you pretty much lost all credibility with Ron and PSA.

Salmo g.Please tell us who stab whom in the back.

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#1014449 - 09/26/19 06:02 PM Re: Willapa Policy Reveiw [Re: Rivrguy]
Salmo g. Offline
River Nutrients

Registered: 03/08/99
Posts: 13521
Chinook 1, if you want to accuse me of something, make it specific and cite some specific evidence to go along with it.

Sg

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#1014450 - 09/26/19 08:35 PM Re: Willapa Policy Reveiw [Re: Rivrguy]
Carcassman Online   content
River Nutrients

Registered: 11/21/07
Posts: 7413
Loc: Olema,California,Planet Earth
Too add to Salmo's attempt to educate, the federal DJ and PR funds are collected from a tax levied on hunting and fishing gear. Obviously bought by hunters and fishers. Then, it is disbursed back to the state based on license sales. The DJ/PR funds are used on a 3:1 basis, so reduce license sales and you lose $3 for each $1 from the state.

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#1014451 - 09/26/19 09:34 PM Re: Willapa Policy Reveiw [Re: Carcassman]
Larry B Offline
River Nutrients

Registered: 10/22/09
Posts: 3020
Loc: University Place and Whidbey I...
Originally Posted By: Carcassman
Too add to Salmo's attempt to educate, the federal DJ and PR funds are collected from a tax levied on hunting and fishing gear. Obviously bought by hunters and fishers. Then, it is disbursed back to the state based on license sales. The DJ/PR funds are used on a 3:1 basis, so reduce license sales and you lose $3 for each $1 from the state.


Great point! DJ/PR are assessed at the wholesale/import level (10%?) and at the 3:1 disbursement ratio provide the State with tremendous leverage.
_________________________
Remember to immediately record your catch or you may become the catch!

It's the person who has done nothing who is sure nothing can be done. (Ewing)

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#1014456 - 09/27/19 06:34 AM Re: Willapa Policy Reveiw [Re: Rivrguy]
Chinook 1 Offline
Fry

Registered: 03/14/18
Posts: 37
Salmo g. The Cowlitz at one time produce over 3 million Steelhead of all species early and late winters and summers. Contributing million of dollars to the health of small communities of SW Washington. Today TP obligation is only 1.4 million that's both late winters and summers. In the late 5 years TP hasn't even come close to meeting there obligations on all species. I was sent the minutes of passed FTC committee meeting that you set on back in 2002.I'm not going to dig through them because it's would be frivolous at this point in time. Yes maybe i was a little harsh on you about being the sole killer of the Cowlitz. There was a lot of moving pieces in the settlement agreement back in 2002 and i think Lewis County could have took a harder line in it negotiation of the agreement. Sorry if i got off topic there readers,but i think we all got frustrated about are fisheries and how we can fix them. Chinook 1

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#1014457 - 09/27/19 08:27 AM Re: Willapa Policy Reveiw [Re: Rivrguy]
Salmo g. Offline
River Nutrients

Registered: 03/08/99
Posts: 13521
Off topic to be sure Chinook 1, but again, for the record, you're incorrect. Steelhead are one species of fish, and the historical number of steelhead upstream of Mayfield Dam was 12,000. 3 million sounds like something made up. TP has no summer steelhead mitigation obligation because historically there was no summer steelhead run of any measurable significance, only winter steelhead. TP's mitigation obligation was clearly spelled out in the 2000 settlement agreement and 2002 license order. The parties to the proceeding later made changes to the agreement that I wouldn't have supported.

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#1014528 - 09/27/19 05:43 PM Re: Willapa Policy Reveiw [Re: Rivrguy]
Chinook 1 Offline
Fry

Registered: 03/14/18
Posts: 37
Salmo g. You were not there in the 80's when 3 million Steelhead were release from the Blue creek. hatchery. One thing i do not do is make up thing.

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#1014532 - 09/27/19 08:32 PM Re: Willapa Policy Reveiw [Re: Chinook 1]
Rivrguy Offline
River Nutrients

Registered: 03/03/09
Posts: 4394
Loc: Somewhere on the planet,I hope

I started this thread for the Willapa not to debate Cowlitz history. SG your being trolled so let it go.
_________________________
Dazed and confused.............the fog is closing in

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#1014544 - 09/28/19 08:44 AM Re: Willapa Policy Reveiw [Re: Rivrguy]
RUNnGUN Offline
Repeat Spawner

Registered: 12/06/07
Posts: 1382
I like the Cowlitz debate. Maybe continue it in another topic. I to remember the huge numbers panted and huge returns, only to witness the reduction and loss of both after the agreement under the disguise of wild fish recovery.
_________________________
"Life moves pretty fast. If you don't stop and look around once in a while, you could miss it.” – Ferris Bueller.
Don't let the old man in!

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#1014558 - 09/29/19 06:06 AM Re: Willapa Policy Reveiw [Re: Rivrguy]
Chinook 1 Offline
Fry

Registered: 03/14/18
Posts: 37
Riverguy. No one is trolling Salmo g.He wasn't working on the Cowlitz in the 80's and he's trying to promote starving the department out.Which is what the leadership of CCA is trying to do to are department now. Which is a bad ideas if you truly love hunting and fishing in Washington.You have to remember the department is going through some big changes in leadership.And the old wild fish wackos of the passed commission are ancient history. It's easy to sit behind a key broad and criticize good people,but it's harder to get involved.And when i talk about being involved. I'm talking about going to meeting. Meeting the people that work for the department like i have done over the years. I've even had a one on one with the new director. I'm very impressed with the hard line he's taking with the wolf debacle. Between working on my house and my family. I go to a least 2 sometimes 3 meetings a mouth sometimes more. From commission meetings to advisory group meetings to north of falcon meetings even went to the PFMC meetings this year. I'm pretty involved if you ask my wife.So to you Salmo g if you have a problem with the department suit up and show up.I'm sure the commissioners and the director would like the see you at there next commission meeting.

Chinook 1

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#1014563 - 09/29/19 11:37 AM Re: Willapa Policy Reveiw [Re: Salmo g.]
Tug 3 Offline
Returning Adult

Registered: 03/06/14
Posts: 260
Loc: Tumwater
Salmo, et al,

Tacoma Light should have an obligation for summer steelhead, because there were, indeed, in significant numbers of summer runs in the Cowlitz prior to Mayfield. I researched this in the early 2000's by talking with old timers from the Mossyrock area. Bob Shaner, now deceased, confirmed the summer run's existence because he caught them way back then. Prior to the dam being put in, the Cowlitz, especially in the summer, was a milky, glacial stream, so surveys, such as they were back then, would have been nearly impossible for accuracy if they even happened at all. (And I'm referring to Shaner's fishing in the 1950-60 era.) Of course Tacoma doesn't want to mitigate for any fish losses. They don't care about fish, just money, and they will weasel out of any obligations that they can. What has happened to the cutthroat program?

Keep up the good work, Salmo, I respect your postings.

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#1016031 - 10/19/19 08:38 AM Re: Willapa Policy Reveiw [Re: Tug 3]
Rivrguy Offline
River Nutrients

Registered: 03/03/09
Posts: 4394
Loc: Somewhere on the planet,I hope
For those who follow the Willapa issues please read the rack reports below. Whatever ones views are on the Willapa policy some things are very clear for the future. With Willapa prime WDFW reduced by 90% Chinook production at Forks Cr. hatchery effectively ending the best Chinook hatchery program on the coast and totally destroyed recreational fisheries in the Willapa estuary.

In the southern Willapa hatcheries production was expanded twice with Naselle eggtake goal now at 5 million. Thing is it is doubtful that the Naselle eggtake goal will ever be consistently met as the hatchery cannot get the adults back due to environmental conditions. So condensed version, both the Commercial and Recreational South Willapa Bay fisheries are now headed into the dust bin also.

This is a complex issue but simply put the Willapa hatcheries need to do a reboot. Forks Cr. needs to be the hatchery producing the 5 million Chinook smolt. The Nemah needs to maintain a solid production of Chinook with all that can be transferred to Forks Cr. to help jump start Forks Cr then return to its current production level in 4 years. Naselle Chinook production should be reduced to meet the environmental conditions ( around 800,000 ) and any eggtake above those needs transferred to Forks Cr, again to jump start the Chinook program. Why WDFW chose to add 2,500,000 smolt for Orca's to the Naselle Chinook production when they had little or no chance of actually producing them is a mystery. Hopefully they are not using the bookkeeping switch to use Orca monies to pay for existing production.

The final piece of the puzzle is that the WDFW Director and Commission need come to terms and fix this mess. This harvest fight between Rec & Commercial that drove the decision making processes that created the total destruction of the Willapa fisheries needs to be solved once and for all.





Hatchery Rack Returns:
See attached file: 2019 WB Hatchery Chinook Broodstock Summary 10.16.19.xlsx

Naselle Hatchery:
There is a new Chinook program release goal for the Naselle Hatchery starting this year of 5,000,000. Last year’s program release goal was 2,500,000 Chinook. This additional production is directed at increasing prey availability for Southern Resident Killer Whales. To-date, we have spawned 557 female Chinook. To make the new program goal, we still need an additional 1,110 female Chinook. Currently, we have an estimated 200 adult Chinook on-hand in the pond. These fish are a mix of males and females.

Nemah Hatchery:
The Chinook program release goal for the Nemah Hatchery is 3,300,000. To-date, we have spawned 357 female Chinook. To make program goal we still need an additional 743 female Chinook. Currently, we have an estimated 130 adult Chinook on-hand in the pond. These fish are a mix of males and females.

Forks Creek Hatchery:
There is a new Chinook program release goal for Forks Creek Hatchery starting this year of 400,000. Last year’s program release goal was 350,000 Chinook. This additional production is directed at increasing prey availability for Southern Resident Killer Whales. To-date, we have spawned 502 female Chinook. That is enough females to make the program release goal. Currently, we have an estimated 114 adult Chinook on-hand in the facility. These fish are a mix of males and females.
_________________________
Dazed and confused.............the fog is closing in

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#1016039 - 10/19/19 06:35 PM Re: Willapa Policy Reveiw [Re: Rivrguy]
Salmo g. Offline
River Nutrients

Registered: 03/08/99
Posts: 13521
I attended the Commission meetings yesterday and today, but not the Fish sub-committee meeting on Thursday. The Commission are aware they have a Willapa Bay problem, so that's a good start. I don't know what, if any, technical recommendations Department staff are making, or going to make, but I hope they will change course and make Forks Ck Chinook production central for WB again. The Willapa will never be a significant natural Chinook producer due to environmental conditions, and designating it as such was a mistake in the first place.

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#1016094 - 10/22/19 04:54 AM Re: Willapa Policy Reveiw [Re: Rivrguy]
Smalma Offline
River Nutrients

Registered: 11/25/01
Posts: 2844
Loc: Marysville
Rivrguy-
Thanks for the update on the WB chinook brood stock goals!

With a goal of 8.7 million fry release I would think the hatcheries would have to take at least 9.5 millions to assure meeting that goal. According to the mid-October WDFW hatchery report the combined egg take for the WB hatcheries was sitting at 4.2 million eggs (from a spawn of 2,857 fish) with enough brood fish on hand to maybe raise the total take to 5 million. At this time of year rack returns should be largely competed (maybe 90% to the hatchery). In short it is looking likely that egg take needs will not be met.

Wonder what WDFW will do if they don't have the eggs for that orca production increase? Return the ear marked funds to the general fund?

Speaking of a Willapa Bay problem according that that hatchery escapement report there has been more than adequate numbers of
Chinook returning to the hatcheries to meet these increase production goals. However of those returning fish the report says that there has been a hatchery mortality of approximately 1,800 fish and another 2,769 fish have been surplused.

Curt


Edited by Smalma (10/22/19 04:57 AM)

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#1016100 - 10/22/19 06:49 AM Re: Willapa Policy Reveiw [Re: Rivrguy]
Carcassman Online   content
River Nutrients

Registered: 11/21/07
Posts: 7413
Loc: Olema,California,Planet Earth
It will depend on just how the actual appropriation reads. If funding for the "whale food" is an actual line item in the budget, then that is all it can be spent on without re-authorization. If it is just folded into the budget it can be moved around.

I recall one year when the Leg had a line item for each hatchery because the agency was believed to get money for A and spend it on B. So, so one year, the budget to the hatcheries was rather fixed.

Need to dig a bit deeper on the number surplussed. If they were surplussing fish, then they either had "enough" to meet goals; that they didn't suggests they were going for the 8.7(9.5)M. Or, they surplussed males as they carry few eggs, which means fecundity was way below planning numbers (smaller fish?).

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#1016144 - 10/22/19 12:02 PM Re: Willapa Policy Reveiw [Re: Rivrguy]
eyeFISH Offline
Ornamental Rice Bowl

Registered: 11/24/03
Posts: 12766
Egg take goals will NOT be met for WB... even with redistribution of surplus eggs from Forks Creek.

This is the disconnect so many of the meat market terminal wipeout proponents fail to understand about hatch the hell out of 'em / catch the hell out of 'em mantra.

Eggs don't just rain down from heaven like free wealth. Moreover, conditions for returning adults in what are essentially little creeks trickling with bathwater are NOT conducive to high density escapements without significant pre-spawn mortality.

Then there's the pre-spawn mortality from the unscrupulous hen-hunters raping the unborn for bait.

What a mess!
_________________________
"Let every angler who loves to fish think what it would mean to him to find the fish were gone." (Zane Grey)

"If you don't kill them, they will spawn." (Carcassman)


The Keen Eye MD
Long Live the Kings!

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