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#1019436 - 01/01/20 05:06 PM Re: Winter Steelhead Escapement [Re: Steelheadman]
large edward Offline
Returning Adult

Registered: 12/17/10
Posts: 276
Loc: Brier, WA
Yeah, I was making an eyeball estimate from about 20 yards away while standing on my property, but the smolts I saw were nowhere near 8". I do remember being on the north fork of the Lewis in the late 80's when it was getting planted at the Island launch with 8" (maybe larger) smolts. Coincidentally, the fishing on the NFL back in those days was lights out for really nice spring steelhead up to 22# that I personally saw.


Edited by large edward (01/01/20 05:08 PM)

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#1019437 - 01/01/20 05:41 PM Re: Winter Steelhead Escapement [Re: Smalma]
RtndSpawner Offline
Parr

Registered: 12/10/09
Posts: 54
Loc: Mason
Seems I read somewhere recently that WDFW had been experimenting (again) with releasing smolts at a rate different than the directed standard. They tried releasing them earlier or at a smaller size to seeif they could reduce rearing costs. After all, with WDFW it's all about the budget. It seems they prefer cutting services instead of personnel when it comes to money shortages.

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#1019440 - 01/01/20 08:08 PM Re: Winter Steelhead Escapement [Re: Steelheadman]
Carcassman Offline
River Nutrients

Registered: 11/21/07
Posts: 7410
Loc: Olema,California,Planet Earth
If the fish need to be a certain size, releasing them smaller means they compete with the wilds. Lloyd Royal did a wholistic review of the WDG steelhead program and concluded, among other things, that the least damage was done to fish rearing in the rivers if the smolts boogied as fast as possible out of the river.

Looks like the wheel may need reinventing.

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#1019441 - 01/01/20 08:30 PM Re: Winter Steelhead Escapement [Re: Carcassman]
Larry B Offline
River Nutrients

Registered: 10/22/09
Posts: 3020
Loc: University Place and Whidbey I...
Originally Posted By: Carcassman
If the fish need to be a certain size, releasing them smaller means they compete with the wilds. Lloyd Royal did a wholistic review of the WDG steelhead program and concluded, among other things, that the least damage was done to fish rearing in the rivers if the smolts boogied as fast as possible out of the river.

Looks like the wheel may need reinventing.



You do understand that the "old retired guys" corporate memory may be perceived as an impediment to progress, right?
_________________________
Remember to immediately record your catch or you may become the catch!

It's the person who has done nothing who is sure nothing can be done. (Ewing)

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#1019442 - 01/01/20 08:41 PM Re: Winter Steelhead Escapement [Re: Steelheadman]
Carcassman Offline
River Nutrients

Registered: 11/21/07
Posts: 7410
Loc: Olema,California,Planet Earth
The "old retired guys" were an impediment while working. They do go out of their way to ignore the past.

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#1019444 - 01/01/20 10:12 PM Re: Winter Steelhead Escapement [Re: Carcassman]
Larry B Offline
River Nutrients

Registered: 10/22/09
Posts: 3020
Loc: University Place and Whidbey I...
Originally Posted By: Carcassman
The "old retired guys" were an impediment while working. They do go out of their way to ignore the past.


And now you (and I) are among that group - not sure if any of us yet qualify as gadflys.
_________________________
Remember to immediately record your catch or you may become the catch!

It's the person who has done nothing who is sure nothing can be done. (Ewing)

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#1019447 - 01/01/20 10:34 PM Re: Winter Steelhead Escapement [Re: Steelheadman]
eyeFISH Offline
Ornamental Rice Bowl

Registered: 11/24/03
Posts: 12766
California has no fish... at least according to guide JD Richey, lamenting the horrible steelhead opener for the hordes that descended on the American River today.

https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?fbid=...e=3&theater

BC also bracing for the worst this winter...

https://globalnews.ca/news/6353608/group...2KJkbQ1ZIRq6S2Q
_________________________
"Let every angler who loves to fish think what it would mean to him to find the fish were gone." (Zane Grey)

"If you don't kill them, they will spawn." (Carcassman)


The Keen Eye MD
Long Live the Kings!

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#1019450 - 01/02/20 07:27 AM Re: Winter Steelhead Escapement [Re: Steelheadman]
Carcassman Offline
River Nutrients

Registered: 11/21/07
Posts: 7410
Loc: Olema,California,Planet Earth
We're almost there. Couple more years and we won't have to worry about by catch. Won't have to try all those wild brood stocks, segregated stocks, etc. Can use the empty hatchery ponds to produce a fish we can eat and manage; salmon.

Steelhead are just too complex for an auto-pilot management system, too rare (now) to be a credible part of by catch worthy of not fishing on.

Saves time and money. Besides, you only fish steelhead in rivers; they don't contribute to "real" fisheries (ocean).

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#1019451 - 01/02/20 09:24 AM Re: Winter Steelhead Escapement [Re: Steelheadman]
Smalma Offline
River Nutrients

Registered: 11/25/01
Posts: 2844
Loc: Marysville
CM -
Isn't the measure of "real" fisheries the man-days of fishing (economic value) produced.

In the mid-1980s on the Snohomish basin season long (3.5 months) WDW creel census estimated that typically showed an average of 60,000 angler trips (did not include the popular CnR season). That is just that one system. To put that in context for the 2017-2018 winter blackmouth seasons WDFW creel census produced the following estimates -

MA 6 effort of 2,220 angler trips
MA 7 effort of 8,789 angler trips
MA 8 effort of 1,325 angler trips
MA 9 effort of 7,954 angler trips
MA 10 effort of 1,836 angler trips

Or a combined estimate for the 5 MAs of just 23,000 trips.

Curt

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#1019452 - 01/02/20 10:16 AM Re: Winter Steelhead Escapement [Re: cobble cruiser]
Salmo g. Offline
River Nutrients

Registered: 03/08/99
Posts: 13520
Originally Posted By: cobble cruiser
Thought the Cowlitz fish are later B run type fish that return beginning in late february and peaks around April 1st these days, no?


The Cowlitz winter steelhead are later than the Chambers Ck, but as production of Cowlitz late winters ramped up, more of them returned in Dec. and Jan., with the majority returning Feb. into Apr. The interesting point to me though is more wild steelhead returned than hatchery fish, even though the number of hatchery smolts is about an order of magnitude greater. There's a story in there, but I'm not quite sure what it is.

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#1019453 - 01/02/20 10:20 AM Re: Winter Steelhead Escapement [Re: Steelheadman]
Carcassman Offline
River Nutrients

Registered: 11/21/07
Posts: 7410
Loc: Olema,California,Planet Earth
I'm not disagreeing Smalma but I would guess that an angler day on the river is way cheaper than an angler day on the salt.

To compare apples to apples, though, what was the MA effort in the 80s, or river effort in '17 and '18? Meaning, if there was a good fishery available in the river, is that fishing additive to the salt?

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#1019455 - 01/02/20 12:08 PM Re: Winter Steelhead Escapement [Re: Steelheadman]
Larry B Offline
River Nutrients

Registered: 10/22/09
Posts: 3020
Loc: University Place and Whidbey I...
In the very recent "Money for Nothing" thread (http://www.piscatorialpursuits.com/forum...tml#Post1019247) I cited information from the 2008 study on the economic value of NT Commercial and Recreational fishing in WA which used 2006 data.

On page 31 of the report it cites for recreational steelhead fishing a net economic value of $51,260,500 and 1,097,000 angler days for an average daily value of $46.72. Again, using the CPI calculator from June 2006 to June 2019 that $46.72 is now $58.98.

On that same page it has data for freshwater salmon fishing of $82,381,300 and 1,763,000 angler days for a daily average of $46.72 and CPI adjustment to $58.98 or the same as for steelhead.

For saltwater salmon fishing $129,419,300 and 2,574,000 angler days for an average daily value of $50.95 adjusted to $64.32. That equates to saltwater salmon fishing being 9% higher in per angler day's economic value than freshwater salmon/steelhead fishing.

So that provides one source of information differentiating the economic value of river fishing versus saltwater fishing for the same salmonids.


Edited by Larry B (01/02/20 12:13 PM)
_________________________
Remember to immediately record your catch or you may become the catch!

It's the person who has done nothing who is sure nothing can be done. (Ewing)

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#1019457 - 01/02/20 12:34 PM Re: Winter Steelhead Escapement [Re: Salmo g.]
RtndSpawner Offline
Parr

Registered: 12/10/09
Posts: 54
Loc: Mason
According to the latest TPU press release there was a grand total of 1 winter run steelhead to the Cowlitz hatchery last week. WDFW has already closed the majority of the eastside rivers to hatchery steelhead retention but why not the rest of the rivers including the OP rivers? Taking into consideration the news from BC nd California there should be plenty of concern to close the rivers until there's enough escapement to meet spawning goals.

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#1019459 - 01/02/20 12:55 PM Re: Winter Steelhead Escapement [Re: Steelheadman]
Carcassman Offline
River Nutrients

Registered: 11/21/07
Posts: 7410
Loc: Olema,California,Planet Earth
The closures are to protect hatchery fish returning to hatcheries. In systems without hatcheries, there is no need to close for hatchery fish protection. Wild fish are doing just fine, or they would be closed.

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#1019518 - 01/03/20 11:02 PM Re: Winter Steelhead Escapement [Re: cobble cruiser]
RUNnGUN Offline
Repeat Spawner

Registered: 12/06/07
Posts: 1382
Originally Posted By: cobble cruiser
Didnt want to say this but for the sake of the conversation, we did quite well 2 weeks ago on the Salmon River (OP) when we had that last big rain. Thought it was encouraging that those later fish were fairly early.


Fished the the upper and lower Salmon yesterday. One day window opportunity. Not bad conditions,dropping hard, high but good color. No bites for 3 of us and heard of none for 20+ guys. Curious how the above tribal area did? Was dumping mud this morning when we left. Gonna be a while with the weather coming. If it doesn't happen after this something is really wrong. Wondering the same thing if OR having return problems? What about tribal net success or failure wherever?
_________________________
"Life moves pretty fast. If you don't stop and look around once in a while, you could miss it.” – Ferris Bueller.
Don't let the old man in!

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#1019522 - 01/04/20 09:12 AM Re: Winter Steelhead Escapement [Re: RUNnGUN]
cobble cruiser Offline
~B-F-D~

Registered: 03/27/09
Posts: 2256
Originally Posted By: RUNnGUN
Originally Posted By: cobble cruiser
Didnt want to say this but for the sake of the conversation, we did quite well 2 weeks ago on the Salmon River (OP) when we had that last big rain. Thought it was encouraging that those later fish were fairly early.


Fished the the upper and lower Salmon yesterday. One day window opportunity. Not bad conditions,dropping hard, high but good color. No bites for 3 of us and heard of none for 20+ guys. Curious how the above tribal area did? Was dumping mud this morning when we left. Gonna be a while with the weather coming. If it doesn't happen after this something is really wrong. Wondering the same thing if OR having return problems? What about tribal net success or failure wherever?


Ouch... looks like we lucked into the right window when it was there.
_________________________
http://www.wooldridgeboats.com

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#1019564 - 01/04/20 11:27 AM Re: Winter Steelhead Escapement [Re: Steelheadman]
Salmo g. Offline
River Nutrients

Registered: 03/08/99
Posts: 13520
These low returns seem unprecedented. I think there is something more going on than impacts of the blob, the drought, pinniped predation, PDO, and ocean acidification. When more wild steelhead than hatchery steelhead return at this time of year, I get the feeling that there is some kind of internal collapse going on with Chambers Ck lineage hatchery steelhead. That slightly better numbers of hatchery steelhead have shown up on the Queets and Quinault might be linked to different broodstock lineage. Those are largely Quinault stock with some Chambers Ck, at least back when they started that program.

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#1019570 - 01/04/20 11:35 AM Re: Winter Steelhead Escapement [Re: Steelheadman]
Tug 3 Offline
Returning Adult

Registered: 03/06/14
Posts: 260
Loc: Tumwater
Maybe it is more than a river thing. Many years ago it was reported of some high seas steelhead interception somewhere off the Asian coast. Seems like steelhead were being caught in the squid fishery that was regulated by latitude. Too long ago to remember specifics. If climate change has affected steelhead migratory patterns they could be intercepted as by catch (or targeted?).

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#1019579 - 01/04/20 11:52 AM Re: Winter Steelhead Escapement [Re: Steelheadman]
Carcassman Offline
River Nutrients

Registered: 11/21/07
Posts: 7410
Loc: Olema,California,Planet Earth
Check out the BC steelhead thread

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#1019642 - 01/04/20 02:09 PM Re: Winter Steelhead Escapement [Re: Carcassman]
Numbqua Offline
Alevin

Registered: 10/29/15
Posts: 15
Wild fish are doing just fine?

Really??

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