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#1019443 - 01/01/20 10:08 PM Problems with BC steelhead management
bushbear Offline
River Nutrients

Registered: 08/26/02
Posts: 4642
Loc: Sequim
Here's a link to the Vancouver Sun article posted Dec. 16. BC and DFO are not forthcoming with steelhead management concerns......

https://vancouversun.com/news/local-news...uded-in-secrecy

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#1019445 - 01/01/20 10:18 PM Re: Problems with BC steelhead management [Re: bushbear]
Larry B Offline
River Nutrients

Registered: 10/22/09
Posts: 2776
Loc: University Place and Whidbey I...
"A freedom of information request for provincial records related to steelhead bycatch in the Fraser River this fall was granted, but with 85 per cent of the pages withheld as “harmful to intergovernmental relations or negotiations” or containing “policy advice or recommendations.”"
_________________________
Remember to immediately record your catch or you may become the catch!

It's the person who has done nothing who is sure nothing can be done. (Ewing)

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#1019446 - 01/01/20 10:26 PM Re: Problems with BC steelhead management [Re: bushbear]
Carcassman Online   content
River Nutrients

Registered: 11/21/07
Posts: 5665
Loc: Olema,California,Planet Earth
Raise your hand if this surprises you. And, seen the openness and transparency anywhere else?

Steelhead are Co-**cked.

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#1019448 - 01/01/20 10:38 PM Re: Problems with BC steelhead management [Re: bushbear]
eyeFISH Offline
Ornamental Rice Bowl

Registered: 11/24/03
Posts: 12488
The Thompson spawning population is estimated at 86 fish, while just 39 steelhead are expected to spawn in the Chilcotin.
_________________________
"Let every angler who loves to fish think what it would mean to him to find the fish were gone." (Zane Grey)

"If you don't kill them, they will spawn." (Carcassman)


The Keen Eye MD
Long Live the Kings!

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#1019449 - 01/02/20 07:06 AM Re: Problems with BC steelhead management [Re: bushbear]
Carcassman Online   content
River Nutrients

Registered: 11/21/07
Posts: 5665
Loc: Olema,California,Planet Earth
The creeks (anadromous zone of 12K) had more than either of those rivers and at least once had more than the combination.

On the other hand, in the 70s, WDG's rule of thumb for creeks and smaller streams was 1 pair per mile was "MSY".

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#1019454 - 01/02/20 10:55 AM Re: Problems with BC steelhead management [Re: eyeFISH]
eyeFISH Offline
Ornamental Rice Bowl

Registered: 11/24/03
Posts: 12488
Originally Posted By: eyeFISH
The Thompson spawning population is estimated at 86 fish, while just 39 steelhead are expected to spawn in the Chilcotin.

What's even sadder is that someone at DFO can draw a Ricker curve to show how many of those 86 Thompson steelhead can still be "sustainably" exploited.

No matter how badly these populations get run into the ground, there's always a seat at the table for MSY.

That my friends is WRONG WRONG WRONG!

_________________________
"Let every angler who loves to fish think what it would mean to him to find the fish were gone." (Zane Grey)

"If you don't kill them, they will spawn." (Carcassman)


The Keen Eye MD
Long Live the Kings!

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#1019460 - 01/02/20 12:59 PM Re: Problems with BC steelhead management [Re: bushbear]
Carcassman Online   content
River Nutrients

Registered: 11/21/07
Posts: 5665
Loc: Olema,California,Planet Earth
Problem is, there is sometimes truth to that.

On the Green (PS) the escapement goal for steelhead was based on seeding rearing area, which included all the trips. At least in the 200's, the number of spawners in the tribes was approaching zero for a variety of reasons but development was probably high on the list. Ideally, the goal should reflect this change (loss of habitat) and the resultant goal would be smaller. A Ricker-type analysis would show this and it would be correct.

It would just be comparing apples to oranges because one goal was mainstream and the other was watershed. Details.

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#1019519 - 01/04/20 07:19 AM Re: Problems with BC steelhead management [Re: bushbear]
Carcassman Online   content
River Nutrients

Registered: 11/21/07
Posts: 5665
Loc: Olema,California,Planet Earth
I received the following from a colleague who worked on BC steelhead. Edited some for brvity. I might add that views probably reflect those of "old guys" form other agencies.....We simply can't claim that we didn't know what was going on.

My take on the BC steelhead management scene in recent times is there is no one home. The organization I once toiled for has been emasculated, repeatedly re-organized, demoralized, suffered disproportionately large budget and staff cuts and led by a succession of people who were successful in the job competitions because no astute and informed individual ever applied.

In my view the returns of the past couple of years at least have been reasonably predictable. People forget that southern BC experienced unprecedented drought and heat conditions until deep into the fall. Some of our once upon a time larger producers were little more than wet rocks for weeks. Of course, those were the same years of "the blob", largely held to be responsible for poor adult returns in the years immediately following. Between fresh water habitat conditions that undoubtedly reduced steelhead smolt populations for 2 or 3 years at least and then sending them off to an ocean that was equally unfavourable I find it hard to believe our "managers" could be surprised at outcomes. Throw in competition in the Gulf of Alaska and central north Pacific from Russian and Asian hatchery pinks and chums and the aggravation added by Alaska and voila!

I tried to encourage some of my successors to look at size at ocean age and condition factor from as many fish as they could get their hands on over the past couple of years. No takers. My personal angling contacts over that time have mentioned repeatedly "the fish sure are small this year and lots of them are skinny". There was a time when such observations would inspire investigation by the biologists in the saddle. Sadly, those days are gone and I see no hope of anything better in future. When our generation fades from the scene the bar will be lowered that much more. But, unless those in the game at that point know where to look for some history lessons, who will ever know what Pauley's shifting baselines refers to?

One more signal you may not have heard about........there's been an annual Boxing Day derby on the Chilliwack/Vedder system (65 miles east of downtown Vancouver) for 75 years. It was held on that date for a reason - there was a good supply of 100% wild steelhead in the river. Well, this year, with 312 entrants fishing under unusually good water and weather conditions there was exactly one (hatchery) steelhead caught. Rumour has it there may have been one or two wild steelhead caught and released but no confirmation. I guess the run in late!

Sign of the times - this is the first year since 1962 that I didn't even fish for steelhead. That had nothing to do with anything but the dearth of fish. 2020 will be much better, though. Right?

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#1019530 - 01/04/20 10:22 AM Re: Problems with BC steelhead management [Re: bushbear]
Dan S. Offline
It all boils down to this - I'm right, everyone else is wrong, and anyone who disputes this is clearly a dumbfuck.

Registered: 03/07/99
Posts: 15586
Loc: SE Olympia, WA
Yikes.
_________________________
She was standin' alone over by the juke box, like she'd something to sell.
I said "baby, what's the goin' price?" She told me to go to hell.

Bon Scott - Shot Down in Flames

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#1019696 - 01/04/20 09:36 PM Re: Problems with BC steelhead management [Re: Carcassman]
eyeFISH Offline
Ornamental Rice Bowl

Registered: 11/24/03
Posts: 12488
Originally Posted By: Carcassman
I received the following from a colleague who worked on BC steelhead. Edited some for brvity. I might add that views probably reflect those of "old guys" form other agencies.....We simply can't claim that we didn't know what was going on.

My take on the BC steelhead management scene in recent times is there is no one home. The organization I once toiled for has been emasculated, repeatedly re-organized, demoralized, suffered disproportionately large budget and staff cuts and led by a succession of people who were successful in the job competitions because no astute and informed individual ever applied.

In my view the returns of the past couple of years at least have been reasonably predictable. People forget that southern BC experienced unprecedented drought and heat conditions until deep into the fall. Some of our once upon a time larger producers were little more than wet rocks for weeks. Of course, those were the same years of "the blob", largely held to be responsible for poor adult returns in the years immediately following. Between fresh water habitat conditions that undoubtedly reduced steelhead smolt populations for 2 or 3 years at least and then sending them off to an ocean that was equally unfavourable I find it hard to believe our "managers" could be surprised at outcomes. Throw in competition in the Gulf of Alaska and central north Pacific from Russian and Asian hatchery pinks and chums and the aggravation added by Alaska and voila!

I tried to encourage some of my successors to look at size at ocean age and condition factor from as many fish as they could get their hands on over the past couple of years. No takers. My personal angling contacts over that time have mentioned repeatedly "the fish sure are small this year and lots of them are skinny". There was a time when such observations would inspire investigation by the biologists in the saddle. Sadly, those days are gone and I see no hope of anything better in future. When our generation fades from the scene the bar will be lowered that much more. But, unless those in the game at that point know where to look for some history lessons, who will ever know what Pauley's shifting baselines refers to?

One more signal you may not have heard about........there's been an annual Boxing Day derby on the Chilliwack/Vedder system (65 miles east of downtown Vancouver) for 75 years. It was held on that date for a reason - there was a good supply of 100% wild steelhead in the river. Well, this year, with 312 entrants fishing under unusually good water and weather conditions there was exactly one (hatchery) steelhead caught. Rumour has it there may have been one or two wild steelhead caught and released but no confirmation. I guess the run in late!

Sign of the times - this is the first year since 1962 that I didn't even fish for steelhead. That had nothing to do with anything but the dearth of fish. 2020 will be much better, though. Right?


Hooton?
_________________________
"Let every angler who loves to fish think what it would mean to him to find the fish were gone." (Zane Grey)

"If you don't kill them, they will spawn." (Carcassman)


The Keen Eye MD
Long Live the Kings!

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#1019705 - 01/05/20 07:56 AM Re: Problems with BC steelhead management [Re: Carcassman]
cobble cruiser Offline
~B-F-D~

Registered: 03/27/09
Posts: 2208
Originally Posted By: Carcassman
I received the following from a colleague who worked on BC steelhead. Edited some for brvity. I might add that views probably reflect those of "old guys" form other agencies.....We simply can't claim that we didn't know what was going on.

My take on the BC steelhead management scene in recent times is there is no one home. The organization I once toiled for has been emasculated, repeatedly re-organized, demoralized, suffered disproportionately large budget and staff cuts and led by a succession of people who were successful in the job competitions because no astute and informed individual ever applied.

In my view the returns of the past couple of years at least have been reasonably predictable. People forget that southern BC experienced unprecedented drought and heat conditions until deep into the fall. Some of our once upon a time larger producers were little more than wet rocks for weeks. Of course, those were the same years of "the blob", largely held to be responsible for poor adult returns in the years immediately following. Between fresh water habitat conditions that undoubtedly reduced steelhead smolt populations for 2 or 3 years at least and then sending them off to an ocean that was equally unfavourable I find it hard to believe our "managers" could be surprised at outcomes. Throw in competition in the Gulf of Alaska and central north Pacific from Russian and Asian hatchery pinks and chums and the aggravation added by Alaska and voila!

I tried to encourage some of my successors to look at size at ocean age and condition factor from as many fish as they could get their hands on over the past couple of years. No takers. My personal angling contacts over that time have mentioned repeatedly "the fish sure are small this year and lots of them are skinny". There was a time when such observations would inspire investigation by the biologists in the saddle. Sadly, those days are gone and I see no hope of anything better in future. When our generation fades from the scene the bar will be lowered that much more. But, unless those in the game at that point know where to look for some history lessons, who will ever know what Pauley's shifting baselines refers to?

One more signal you may not have heard about........there's been an annual Boxing Day derby on the Chilliwack/Vedder system (65 miles east of downtown Vancouver) for 75 years. It was held on that date for a reason - there was a good supply of 100% wild steelhead in the river. Well, this year, with 312 entrants fishing under unusually good water and weather conditions there was exactly one (hatchery) steelhead caught. Rumour has it there may have been one or two wild steelhead caught and released but no confirmation. I guess the run in late!

Sign of the times - this is the first year since 1962 that I didn't even fish for steelhead. That had nothing to do with anything but the dearth of fish. 2020 will be much better, though. Right?



I remember that Derby. Placed seventh one time in it at Freds. Here's the crazy part, my 7th place fish was just under 16 lb. There were lots of wild fish back then and Hatchery fish, many in the upper teens and a few of course over 20 lb.


Edited by cobble cruiser (01/05/20 07:58 AM)
_________________________
http://www.wooldridgeboats.com

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#1019781 - 01/06/20 03:37 PM Re: Problems with BC steelhead management [Re: bushbear]
Carcassman Online   content
River Nutrients

Registered: 11/21/07
Posts: 5665
Loc: Olema,California,Planet Earth
I have generally been of the opinion that folks "back then" didn't have the information to avoid making bad decisions. They did their best with what was available. The following, sent to me by another ner-do-well, suggests that pleading ignorance ws not a viable excuse even back then.

In their new book Science Be Dammed: How Ignoring Inconvenient Science Drained the Colorado River, Eric Kuhn and John Fleck explain how even when clear evidence was available that the Colorado River could not sustain ambitious dreaming and planning, river planners and political operatives irresponsibly made the least sustainable and most dangerous long-term decisions. Arguing that the science of the early twentieth century can shed new light on the mistakes at the heart of the over-allocation of the Colorado River, Kuhn and Fleck delve into rarely reported early studies, showing that scientists warned as early as the 1920s that there was not enough water for the farms and cities boosters wanted to build. Contrary to a common myth that the authors of the Colorado River Compact did the best they could with limited information, they show the boosters selectively chose the information needed to support their dreams, ignoring inconvenient science that suggested a more cautious approach.

Just in time for NOF.

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#1019907 - 01/09/20 11:59 AM Re: Problems with BC steelhead management [Re: bushbear]
elparquito Offline
The Chosen One

Registered: 02/09/00
Posts: 13668
Loc: Margaritaville

If could put everyone on this board talking about Canadian Fisheries in to a video, it would resemble something like this:



Good thing the Canadians are well in to solving these issues by themselves.
_________________________

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#1019920 - 01/09/20 05:58 PM Re: Problems with BC steelhead management [Re: bushbear]
RUNnGUN Offline
Spawner

Registered: 12/06/07
Posts: 967
Where did yo find that! Awesome!
_________________________
"After fishing for Steelhead for over 40 years, Steelheading as I know it is gone in Puget Sound!"
ME

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#1019985 - 01/10/20 04:13 PM Re: Problems with BC steelhead management [Re: bushbear]
eddie Offline
Carcass

Registered: 03/08/99
Posts: 2231
Loc: Valencia, Negros Oriental, Phi...
Captain Quinn on YouTube! Great channel, he is located in the Skeena area.
_________________________
"You're not a g*dda*n looney Martini, you're a fisherman"

R.P. McMurphy - One Flew Over The Cuckoo's Nest

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#1020004 - 01/10/20 11:28 PM Re: Problems with BC steelhead management [Re: eddie]
avidangler Online   content
River Nutrients

Registered: 04/04/13
Posts: 2616
Loc: Monterey CA
Quinn's been around a long time
_________________________
Blah blah blah blah blah

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