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#1020606 - 01/25/20 10:24 PM Re: LEGAL ACTION CHALLENGING SEASON SETTING PROCESS [Re: Rivrguy]
Bay wolf Offline
Repeat Spawner

Registered: 10/26/12
Posts: 1075
Loc: Graham, WA
We had the privilege of working with Miranda briefly before she left the Commission. I have to say it was an honor to have had the chance, and what a loss it was when she left the Commission.

We just published the full update on the "Open WDFW/Tribal NOF" Petition. The update includes working links to Miranda's Declaration as well as all the other documents.

Please visit the Petition, and consider signing if you have not already.

It is not only right, it's the LAW!

Here is the link: Open WDFW/Tribal North of Falcon Meetings

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#1020614 - 01/25/20 11:38 PM Re: LEGAL ACTION CHALLENGING SEASON SETTING PROCESS [Re: Rivrguy]
RtndSpawner Offline
Parr

Registered: 12/10/09
Posts: 54
Loc: Mason
My wife grew up on Hood Canal, she had a front row seat on the damage the state allowed to happen to the canal by commercial fisheries. How the bottom trawlers pulled up all the ell grass that still today has not come back and ravaged bottom fish populations, all for a buck without regard for the future.

So, while searching for some documentation I came across this article. It seems to be a from a book of some sort put out by the Kitsap Sun back in 1990 but couldn't find any more reference to it. The link is:

mediaassets.kitsapsun.com/permanent/hoodcanal/chapter7.pdf


It's an interesting historical perspective of fishing and fisheries management in Hood Canal. In my opinion this just shows the state fisheries management has learned nothing from their past mistakes. They seem to have always taken the side of commercial fishing and recreational fishing just seems to be an occupational hazard to them.

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#1020620 - 01/26/20 08:26 AM Re: LEGAL ACTION CHALLENGING SEASON SETTING PROCESS [Re: Rivrguy]
Carcassman Online   content
River Nutrients

Registered: 11/21/07
Posts: 7412
Loc: Olema,California,Planet Earth
If memory serves, Hood Canal was a "preserve" for salmon with no commercial fishing allowed until Boldt. At that time, the tribes with U&A inside the Canal could begin fishing. In an effort to maintain the commercial net fishery and comply with Boldt, there was a concerted effort to increase chum production; chum being a commercial fish with little rec interest. There were quite a few chum facilities built during that era.

Hindsight suggests that might not have been wise.

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#1020622 - 01/26/20 08:52 AM Re: LEGAL ACTION CHALLENGING SEASON SETTING PROCESS [Re: Carcassman]
Rivrguy Offline
River Nutrients

Registered: 03/03/09
Posts: 4393
Loc: Somewhere on the planet,I hope
When Harry headed up hatcheries he was asked if he could find additional opportunity in Hood Canal. So he ran through the production abilities and brought forth that substantial Chum production could be attained with little cost. So it was green light and off they went but as this was happening he also asked the question " shouldn't we figure out harvest first ? " The response from the harvest managers was nope we will figure that out later. I do not think they ever figured it out judging by the results.
_________________________
Dazed and confused.............the fog is closing in

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#1020627 - 01/26/20 09:07 AM Re: LEGAL ACTION CHALLENGING SEASON SETTING PROCESS [Re: Rivrguy]
Carcassman Online   content
River Nutrients

Registered: 11/21/07
Posts: 7412
Loc: Olema,California,Planet Earth
Back then, a salmon was a salmon was a salmon. Hatchery fish were "no problem", they were the same as wild fish.

Chum nd pink are really cheap to raise as they need very little food for a huge amount stocked. Cost/benefit is through the roof. They don't need year-around water, and a bunch of other advantages. But, harvesting down to the hatcheries' egg needs starves the local streams of nutrients.

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#1020635 - 01/26/20 12:08 PM Re: LEGAL ACTION CHALLENGING SEASON SETTING PROCESS [Re: RtndSpawner]
OncyT Offline
Spawner

Registered: 02/06/08
Posts: 506
Originally Posted By: RtndSpawner
My wife grew up on Hood Canal, she had a front row seat on the damage the state allowed to happen to the canal by commercial fisheries. How the bottom trawlers pulled up all the ell grass that still today has not come back and ravaged bottom fish populations, all for a buck without regard for the future.

So, while searching for some documentation I came across this article. It seems to be a from a book of some sort put out by the Kitsap Sun back in 1990 but couldn't find any more reference to it. The link is:

mediaassets.kitsapsun.com/permanent/hoodcanal/chapter7.pdf


It's an interesting historical perspective of fishing and fisheries management in Hood Canal. In my opinion this just shows the state fisheries management has learned nothing from their past mistakes. They seem to have always taken the side of commercial fishing and recreational fishing just seems to be an occupational hazard to them.

One thread that ran through the entire article in the Sun was that we could somehow solve all our problems (Indian vs. non-Indian, commercial vs. sport fisheries) by simply modifying our hatchery programs. As it turns out, nothing could be further from the truth.

Another big lie throughout the article was that the commercial fisheries in the Canal were managed to protect natural populations. At the time the article was written (and continuing to this day with only the changes caused by the Endangered Species Act), the only populations that were managed for natural production were Hood Canal coho. All the natural Chinook and chum populations were considered secondary, meaning what ever happened to them was based on management for hatchery escapement (i.e. all were harvested at hatchery rates that are not sustainable in natural populations). Obviously the listing of P.S. Chinook and Hood Canal summer chum forced a modification to that approach.

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#1020644 - 01/26/20 01:25 PM Re: LEGAL ACTION CHALLENGING SEASON SETTING PROCESS [Re: Rivrguy]
eyeFISH Offline
Ornamental Rice Bowl

Registered: 11/24/03
Posts: 12766

At first, Boldt's decision triggered disagreements between the tribes and state. Parties relied on the courts to settle disputes over the allocation of specific runs.

"We don't seek third-party resolution as often as we used to," said Austin. "We realize we can cut the baby in half as well as Solomon if that's what it comes down to."

"A lot of professionals were hoping things would end up as they have," he said. "The acrimony and the fighting have ended and the professionalism has increased."

A feeling of goodwill kind of just came along," said Lampsakis, "because people on both sides realized that they could sue each other forever or sit down and work things out."

....

Things that make ya go.... HMMMMMM?
_________________________
"Let every angler who loves to fish think what it would mean to him to find the fish were gone." (Zane Grey)

"If you don't kill them, they will spawn." (Carcassman)


The Keen Eye MD
Long Live the Kings!

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#1020647 - 01/26/20 01:58 PM Re: LEGAL ACTION CHALLENGING SEASON SETTING PROCESS [Re: Rivrguy]
Carcassman Online   content
River Nutrients

Registered: 11/21/07
Posts: 7412
Loc: Olema,California,Planet Earth
When you go to Court, the decision is made based on case law. Which, in the case of Boldt, would mean sharing is 50:50. When you sit down and "negotiate", you can agree to anything.

Oncy is right about intentional over harvest of wild stocks. WDFW and the Tribes agreed to a management plan for PS. One of the foundations was that every stream would have at least one (1) species managed as wild. This was to ensure that habitat was protected. (ok, that was th concept). Skagit and Stilly/Snoh were all wild, the rest had as few as one.

Interestingly, the Green was managed for wild Chinook. Hatchery coho and there were no chum and pink. Then, because of the presence of unmarked hatchery fish, the escapement was lowered because they couldn't hit the initial one. And called it MSY.

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#1020649 - 01/26/20 02:16 PM Re: LEGAL ACTION CHALLENGING SEASON SETTING PROCESS [Re: eyeFISH]
Larry B Offline
River Nutrients

Registered: 10/22/09
Posts: 3020
Loc: University Place and Whidbey I...
Originally Posted By: eyeFISH



A feeling of goodwill kind of just came along," said Lampsakis, "because people on both sides realized that they could sue each other forever or sit down and work things out."

....

Things that make ya go.... HMMMMMM?


But, but.....they are saying things are just great. HMMMMMMM!!
_________________________
Remember to immediately record your catch or you may become the catch!

It's the person who has done nothing who is sure nothing can be done. (Ewing)

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#1020650 - 01/26/20 02:36 PM Re: LEGAL ACTION CHALLENGING SEASON SETTING PROCESS [Re: Rivrguy]
Carcassman Online   content
River Nutrients

Registered: 11/21/07
Posts: 7412
Loc: Olema,California,Planet Earth
Depends on which side of the argument you are on.

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#1020651 - 01/26/20 03:19 PM Re: LEGAL ACTION CHALLENGING SEASON SETTING PROCESS [Re: Carcassman]
OncyT Offline
Spawner

Registered: 02/06/08
Posts: 506
Originally Posted By: Carcassman
Interestingly, the Green was managed for wild Chinook. Hatchery coho and there were no chum and pink. Then, because of the presence of unmarked hatchery fish, the escapement was lowered because they couldn't hit the initial one. And called it MSY.

That was a good reminder for me Carcassman. I was certain that all the Chinook in the South Sound Region of Origin (everything south of the Snohomish system) had been declared not viable for harvest management purposes in the initial PS Management Plan of 1977 & 1978, but that was not the case. You are right. (I actually got out my old "Blue Book" to check.) The Green River, the system with the mothers of all hatchery Chinook, was still considered a viable natural population. All the Chinook in the rest of S. Sound were also considered viable natural populations. Only Bellingham Bay and Skokomish River Chinook were declared non-viable right off the bat, a term the co-managers quickly got rid of because it made people (rightly) believe that they didn't care about these natural populations. The rest of the decisions dealing with population viability came later with the development of formal or informal regional management plans.

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#1020653 - 01/26/20 04:02 PM Re: LEGAL ACTION CHALLENGING SEASON SETTING PROCESS [Re: Rivrguy]
Carcassman Online   content
River Nutrients

Registered: 11/21/07
Posts: 7412
Loc: Olema,California,Planet Earth
The problem with the Green is that without Chum or Pink all you had left was Coho and Chinook. One had to be viable. Since there was already a huge NI net fishery for the SS Coho, that probably left the Chinook as the only thing even remotely viable. Took care of that soon enough. Interesting that the Green has, since then, developed some really good chum and pink runs (that were non-existent). Are they now classified as "viable"?


I also remember some of the early arguments on the viability of other SS Chinook. They were wanted to be declared viable, but didn't want to mange the fishery to make it so. Call the viable but still fish the **it out of them.

But, NOAA (at least used to) supports this when they set recovery harvest rates at X and actual fisheries at Y, where Y was greater the X. Don't see how you can fish harder than the rate needed for recovery (at least in theory) and expect recovery.


Edited by Carcassman (01/26/20 04:04 PM)

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#1020661 - 01/26/20 06:53 PM Re: LEGAL ACTION CHALLENGING SEASON SETTING PROCESS [Re: Carcassman]
eyeFISH Offline
Ornamental Rice Bowl

Registered: 11/24/03
Posts: 12766
Originally Posted By: Carcassman


But, NOAA (at least used to) supports this when they set recovery harvest rates at X and actual fisheries at Y, where Y was greater the X. Don't see how you can fish harder than the rate needed for recovery (at least in theory) and expect recovery.


The sad reality is that the commercial harvest-oriented MSY mantra is so entrenched that the PST, PFMC, DFO, ADFG, NOF, WDFW, ODFW policy folks simply can't discipline themselves to the concept of capped total exploitation rates.

When I last took a look at PST Chinook technical committee data on CR tules, ESA has basically mandated total exploitation caps of ~38% during the past decade.

Actual exploitation has instead been running ~63% ! ! !

It's as if all the management folks just decided f'ESA and 38% exploitation... we'll shoot for 38% to the gravel instead.
_________________________
"Let every angler who loves to fish think what it would mean to him to find the fish were gone." (Zane Grey)

"If you don't kill them, they will spawn." (Carcassman)


The Keen Eye MD
Long Live the Kings!

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#1020730 - 01/27/20 01:00 PM Re: LEGAL ACTION CHALLENGING SEASON SETTING PROCESS [Re: eyeFISH]
Rivrguy Offline
River Nutrients

Registered: 03/03/09
Posts: 4393
Loc: Somewhere on the planet,I hope
This the link to Pat Patillo's declaration. Interesting reading to say the least. This is a MUST read for you PS folks and everyone should read Pat's declaration, The 2019 closures for Stillaguamish resulted in a net of three natural spawners.

https://drive.google.com/file/d/1ImDgq1VqH6md0JgHa5LDqE1N5XUooOf4/view


Edited by Rivrguy (01/27/20 01:31 PM)
_________________________
Dazed and confused.............the fog is closing in

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#1020738 - 01/27/20 03:03 PM Re: LEGAL ACTION CHALLENGING SEASON SETTING PROCESS [Re: Rivrguy]
Carcassman Online   content
River Nutrients

Registered: 11/21/07
Posts: 7412
Loc: Olema,California,Planet Earth
Interesting reading. Pulls back a few veils.

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#1020764 - 01/28/20 07:57 AM Re: LEGAL ACTION CHALLENGING SEASON SETTING PROCESS [Re: Rivrguy]
GodLovesUgly Offline
Repeat Spawner

Registered: 04/20/09
Posts: 1269
Loc: WaRshington
After 36 years of service that is all there is to say about the lack of transparency? One small example? Seems pretty flimsy....
_________________________
When I grow up I want to be,
One of the harvesters of the sea.
I think before my days are done,
I want to be a fisherman.

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#1020768 - 01/28/20 08:52 AM Re: LEGAL ACTION CHALLENGING SEASON SETTING PROCESS [Re: GodLovesUgly]
Bay wolf Offline
Repeat Spawner

Registered: 10/26/12
Posts: 1075
Loc: Graham, WA
Originally Posted By: GodLovesUgly
After 36 years of service that is all there is to say about the lack of transparency? One small example? Seems pretty flimsy....


Pattillo's declaration is in support of the lawsuit which is about the 2019 Season. I'm sure he has many more examples, but the focus is on what happened in that particular situation.

If truth be told, and ALL the instances where they public was left completely out of the loop were to come to light, I believe it would be a novel rather than a declaration.

The Chinook Harvest Management Plan comes to mind, where even the Commission was blindsided, and resulted in a Directorship change. I guess the lessons of that didn't sink in with Dir. Susewind...at least not yet.

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#1020785 - 01/28/20 02:05 PM Re: LEGAL ACTION CHALLENGING SEASON SETTING PROCESS [Re: Bay wolf]
Larry B Offline
River Nutrients

Registered: 10/22/09
Posts: 3020
Loc: University Place and Whidbey I...
Originally Posted By: Bay wolf
Originally Posted By: GodLovesUgly
After 36 years of service that is all there is to say about the lack of transparency? One small example? Seems pretty flimsy....


Pattillo's declaration is in support of the lawsuit which is about the 2019 Season. I'm sure he has many more examples, but the focus is on what happened in that particular situation.

If truth be told, and ALL the instances where they public was left completely out of the loop were to come to light, I believe it would be a novel rather than a declaration.

The Chinook Harvest Management Plan comes to mind, where even the Commission was blindsided, and resulted in a Directorship change. I guess the lessons of that didn't sink in with Dir. Susewind...at least not yet.



First, it would be the equivalent of a Russian novel....very dark and very long.

As far as Director Susewind 2019 was no doubt a steep learning curve. I certainly hope that having encountered the beast once he will be better prepared for the next battle.
_________________________
Remember to immediately record your catch or you may become the catch!

It's the person who has done nothing who is sure nothing can be done. (Ewing)

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#1020786 - 01/28/20 02:41 PM Re: LEGAL ACTION CHALLENGING SEASON SETTING PROCESS [Re: Rivrguy]
Geoduck Offline
Returning Adult

Registered: 08/10/02
Posts: 437
Seems to me that Susewind's stint at WDFW director is already over. He just doesn't know it yet. Letting Warren call the shots got Unsworth fired and Susewind has doubled down and made the exact same mistake. Its just a matter of time until the chickens come home. . .

Perhaps I am wrong and the commission will get dissolved instead of the director getting fired. However, the status quo cannot continue-- dramatic change will occur pretty soon. The WDFW management paradigm and public input process is so utterly broken there are not sufficient words in the English language to describe the ineptitude.

Maybe this lawsuit will be the catalyst for that change.
_________________________
Dig Deep!

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#1020788 - 01/28/20 03:10 PM Re: LEGAL ACTION CHALLENGING SEASON SETTING PROCESS [Re: Geoduck]
Rivrguy Offline
River Nutrients

Registered: 03/03/09
Posts: 4393
Loc: Somewhere on the planet,I hope
It matters little who is Director at this stage of the game. It is the courts or the Commission appoints a Director that comes in and fires every staffer not covered by the union contract and does a hard reboot. No other options exist.


Edited by Rivrguy (01/28/20 03:11 PM)
_________________________
Dazed and confused.............the fog is closing in

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