Check

 

Defiance Boats!

LURECHARGE!

THE PP OUTDOOR FORUMS

Kast Gear!

Power Pro Shimano Reels G Loomis Rods

  Willie boats! Puffballs!

 

Three Rivers Marine

 

 
Page 4 of 7 < 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 >
Topic Options
Rate This Topic
#1020928 - 01/30/20 10:28 AM Re: LEGAL ACTION CHALLENGING SEASON SETTING PROCESS [Re: Carcassman]
rojoband Offline
Returning Adult

Registered: 05/31/08
Posts: 264
Originally Posted By: Carcassman
Personally, I think electing the Commissioners wold be a good start. Nine Commissioners, one chair, Six year terms, staggered with the election of 2 every two years and three (the chair) in one of them. Half the Commissioners must reside in Western WA and be elected by voters in those counties. The other half in Eastern. The Chair is elected statewide.. I can see that much of the time decisions will be close to 5-4, but each Commissioner will have to defend their votes/positions to the voters.

It will also mean that we will have to find candidates, vote for them, etc. Also means an increase in costs to better pay them. But, it will make the Commission, and by extension the Director, publicly accountable for actions.


Wait a second, I've seen you constantly post that the decisions are currently influence by those with the most lobby $$...but the solution you are suggesting means now those same groups would be able to get their lackey's in these spots through the electoral process! How does that jive with your other posts? It seems to pose an even bigger problem, as the current population of WA is 7.5 million. The last WDFW license sales report shows ~394,000 freshwater fishing licenses and 48,000 saltwater licenses, and 171,000 combo licenses. That is ~613,000 licenses which equals 8% of the WA population and this assumes people who buy a license to fish for trout/crab/razor clam/groundfish/etc. all also fish for salmon & steelhead and care about the politics of them. They likely don't. The ability to influence elections in metropolitan areas will be 0-null and so the rural districts will have the opportunity to decide on WA commissioners that may be more fishing/hunting friendly vs. other interests friendly, but then you have to consider if the economies of rural areas (logging/agriculture interests) would also not put lobbying $$ to elect their own lackey's. I don't see this as a solution.... let alone the general nature of this thread assuming that this case will do anything about the structure of the commission. It will either by a slap on the wrist to WDFW to do things in the way the judge interprets them, or the judge will decide they are doing enough in the way of crafting rules. Electing the commissioners will end up mean the commission gets stacked with professional lobbyists from interests with deep pockets.

Top
#1020941 - 01/30/20 11:18 AM Re: LEGAL ACTION CHALLENGING SEASON SETTING PROCESS [Re: Rivrguy]
FleaFlickr02 Offline
River Nutrients

Registered: 10/28/09
Posts: 3314
Until the commission no longer defers to the Director for final decisions, they will be completely useless to our cause. We've seen plenty of examples where the commission went to bat for us, only to have the Director put the kibosh on the whole deal and restore the status quo to know this is true.

Keep the commission if you think we must, but be assured that any time you spend before them is wasted time until they are given real, actual AUTHORITY over policy. Absent that, they are only there to take the heat that belongs under the Director's a$$.

Top
#1020961 - 01/30/20 01:42 PM Re: LEGAL ACTION CHALLENGING SEASON SETTING PROCESS [Re: Rivrguy]
Carcassman Online   content
River Nutrients

Registered: 11/21/07
Posts: 7413
Loc: Olema,California,Planet Earth
There really isn't any way that a part-time Commission can be up to speed and involved in day to day management decisions. They have to trust their Staff, but have to remove those that abuse that trust.

In this situation, the whole NOF/regulation/ESA permits they must aggressively balance the scales. If that takes the Courts, fine. If they can't be balanced, then they need to clearly let us know that we are in a rigged game.

Top
#1020966 - 01/30/20 01:53 PM Re: LEGAL ACTION CHALLENGING SEASON SETTING PROCESS [Re: rojoband]
darth baiter Offline
Juvenile at Sea

Registered: 04/04/10
Posts: 199
Loc: United States
Sorry CM, I have to go along with Rojo regarding electing the commissioners. This is the exact opposite of trying to keep politics out of natural resource management. The winners will be the ones with the big $$$ and the political power. There is a lot of money in farming, cattle, timber, noncomsumptive use, even PETA that could come together and be part of commission coalition that may not vote along with the hook and bullet crowd. The commission and director relationship has its biggest shortfall as the weakness in specific direction to the Director from the Commission. The Director is given authority to make decisions under broad policy themes. Consequently, its murky trying to figure out who to blame for missteps. One can knock the old Dept of Fisheries system of a Director with full authority but at least one knew who to thank or blame. Chain of command and decisions weren't murky at all.

Top
#1020979 - 01/30/20 02:35 PM Re: LEGAL ACTION CHALLENGING SEASON SETTING PROCESS [Re: darth baiter]
Rivrguy Offline
River Nutrients

Registered: 03/03/09
Posts: 4394
Loc: Somewhere on the planet,I hope

I see a point being missed. If the Commission adopts a policy, priority, or anything really it is not legally binding on WDF&W. It can be but the Commission puts it in a WAC then it is binding and the agency can be sued if they fail to follow it because it is law. The Commission can require an action or priority but minus a WAC it is not binding on WDFW.
_________________________
Dazed and confused.............the fog is closing in

Top
#1020999 - 01/30/20 03:43 PM Re: LEGAL ACTION CHALLENGING SEASON SETTING PROCESS [Re: Rivrguy]
Backtrollin Offline
Juvenile at Sea

Registered: 10/18/07
Posts: 174
Loc: Duvall, WA
May I suggest a change at the top, seems to me policy and fisheries have been on the decline since Ron Warren came into play. The quick fix is to give him a golden parachute and get some fresh blood in there. This agency needs fish people at the top that have no political ties or history with the department.

Top
#1021008 - 01/30/20 03:55 PM Re: LEGAL ACTION CHALLENGING SEASON SETTING PROCESS [Re: Rivrguy]
Larry B Offline
River Nutrients

Registered: 10/22/09
Posts: 3020
Loc: University Place and Whidbey I...
Originally Posted By: Rivrguy

I see a point being missed. If the Commission adopts a policy, priority, or anything really it is not legally binding on WDF&W. It can be but the Commission puts it in a WAC then it is binding and the agency can be sued if they fail to follow it because it is law. The Commission can require an action or priority but minus a WAC it is not binding on WDFW.


You are correct and thank you for pointing that out. That whole issue of the force and effect of Commission Policy/direction was touched upon during the most recent Commission meeting. Should it take putting a Policy into the WAC such that the public can sue? No!

What it takes is a strong Commission to monitor the implementation of its direction over time and provide course corrections when needed.
_________________________
Remember to immediately record your catch or you may become the catch!

It's the person who has done nothing who is sure nothing can be done. (Ewing)

Top
#1021012 - 01/30/20 03:59 PM Re: LEGAL ACTION CHALLENGING SEASON SETTING PROCESS [Re: Rivrguy]
Carcassman Online   content
River Nutrients

Registered: 11/21/07
Posts: 7413
Loc: Olema,California,Planet Earth
I disagree, at least in part. Having staff with no PNW background and experience is, to my mind, a bad thing. One needs familiarity with the resources; needs to have touched them. They are more than simply photons on a computer screen or simple numbers. I think you also need to have an understanding of the Boldt Decision (what it actually says), ESA, and so on.

It needs to be learned experience, not simply told to you by someone preaching the Company Line. Getting rid of just Ron won't help; there needs to be a much more systemic housecleaning that starts at the very top.

Top
#1021088 - 01/31/20 08:23 AM Re: LEGAL ACTION CHALLENGING SEASON SETTING PROCESS [Re: Larry B]
Salmo g. Offline
River Nutrients

Registered: 03/08/99
Posts: 13521
Originally Posted By: Larry B
Originally Posted By: Rivrguy

I see a point being missed. If the Commission adopts a policy, priority, or anything really it is not legally binding on WDF&W. It can be but the Commission puts it in a WAC then it is binding and the agency can be sued if they fail to follow it because it is law. The Commission can require an action or priority but minus a WAC it is not binding on WDFW.


You are correct and thank you for pointing that out. That whole issue of the force and effect of Commission Policy/direction was touched upon during the most recent Commission meeting. Should it take putting a Policy into the WAC such that the public can sue? No!

What it takes is a strong Commission to monitor the implementation of its direction over time and provide course corrections when needed.


I agree with this. It's been a while since I've read the enabling legislation, but I think it is the Commission's job to establish and set policy, and through the Director it is carried out. If the actions don't meet policy expectations, then the Commission provides instruction to the Director or hires a new Director.

Top
#1021109 - 01/31/20 10:08 AM Re: LEGAL ACTION CHALLENGING SEASON SETTING PROCESS [Re: Salmo g.]
Larry B Offline
River Nutrients

Registered: 10/22/09
Posts: 3020
Loc: University Place and Whidbey I...
Originally Posted By: Salmo g.
Originally Posted By: Larry B
Originally Posted By: Rivrguy

I see a point being missed. If the Commission adopts a policy, priority, or anything really it is not legally binding on WDF&W. It can be but the Commission puts it in a WAC then it is binding and the agency can be sued if they fail to follow it because it is law. The Commission can require an action or priority but minus a WAC it is not binding on WDFW.


You are correct and thank you for pointing that out. That whole issue of the force and effect of Commission Policy/direction was touched upon during the most recent Commission meeting. Should it take putting a Policy into the WAC such that the public can sue? No!

What it takes is a strong Commission to monitor the implementation of its direction over time and provide course corrections when needed.


I agree with this. It's been a while since I've read the enabling legislation, but I think it is the Commission's job to establish and set policy, and through the Director it is carried out. If the actions don't meet policy expectations, then the Commission provides instruction to the Director or hires a new Director.


Unfortunately, my observation over the last ten years or so is that the Commission has a poor record of keeping their collective eye on the ball in terms of Director/Staff implementation of policy/guidance. With that laissez-faire reality it falls to us stakeholders to identify failures and "encourage" the Commission to put the ship back on course. More often than not it seems like that effort is akin to herding cats.

But it is still better than dealing with the Legislature and their short term goals.
_________________________
Remember to immediately record your catch or you may become the catch!

It's the person who has done nothing who is sure nothing can be done. (Ewing)

Top
#1021124 - 01/31/20 10:41 AM Re: LEGAL ACTION CHALLENGING SEASON SETTING PROCESS [Re: Rivrguy]
FleaFlickr02 Offline
River Nutrients

Registered: 10/28/09
Posts: 3314
It had been a while since I read it, so I went back and read through RCW 77.04 (Department of Fish and Wildlife). Indeed, it places a lot of authority (and the service of the director) in the hands of the commissioners.

I said earlier that the WDFW Director had the power to overrule commission guidance, but that doesn't appear to be the exact case. Rather, in section 020, the Legislature says that "The commission may delegate to the director any of the powers and duties vested in the commission." The word "may" is key, because it implies a choice. As long as I've been somewhat involved in this stuff, I've not seen the commission make a single rule or step in to overturn department recommendations. I suspect they delegate most of their powers to the director, possibly because they feel (likely rightly so) that department staff should be better-equipped to handle most issues than they are. Either way, it's clear that the commission has tended not to exercise a wide range of their vested powers over the years, whatever the reasons. When they don't act, the director does.

Top
#1021151 - 01/31/20 11:04 AM Re: LEGAL ACTION CHALLENGING SEASON SETTING PROCESS [Re: FleaFlickr02]
Rivrguy Offline
River Nutrients

Registered: 03/03/09
Posts: 4394
Loc: Somewhere on the planet,I hope

You can get a can of worms opened with that. The Commission can & does delegate but it cannot remove requirements like the Open Meeting Act, APA, and several other technicalities. It is the difficulty faced around "delegate" .
_________________________
Dazed and confused.............the fog is closing in

Top
#1021169 - 01/31/20 11:34 AM Re: LEGAL ACTION CHALLENGING SEASON SETTING PROCESS [Re: Rivrguy]
Bay wolf Offline
Repeat Spawner

Registered: 10/26/12
Posts: 1075
Loc: Graham, WA
Speaking about the Commission "Doing their Jobs", we just sent an open letter to the Commission asking them to do just that. Given that we now have a Commissioner who served on the Northwest Indian Fishing Commission for over twenty years, and the fact that a lawsuit over OPMA violations is barreling down on WDFW, we thought it at last time the Commission do their job and end locked doors and coercion in the North of Falcon.

Here is a link so you can read the letter: Letter to Commision: DO YOUR JOB!

Top
#1021509 - 02/04/20 05:32 PM Re: LEGAL ACTION CHALLENGING SEASON SETTING PROCESS [Re: Rivrguy]
Bay wolf Offline
Repeat Spawner

Registered: 10/26/12
Posts: 1075
Loc: Graham, WA
This is a reminder:

The hearing on WDFW's motion to stand down the OPMA Violations lawsuit is scheduled to be head this Friday, 7 Feb at 9 A.M at the Thurston County Court House.

It's an open hearing so anyone who would like to sit in is welcome.

THFWA's attorney will be asking Judge Price to reject WDFW's argument and to find in the Advocacy's favor that WDFW has indeed violated the Open Public Meetings Act.

This will be the fist time the Judge in this case will hear arguments from either side.

Top
#1021514 - 02/04/20 06:20 PM Re: LEGAL ACTION CHALLENGING SEASON SETTING PROCESS [Re: Bay wolf]
darth baiter Offline
Juvenile at Sea

Registered: 04/04/10
Posts: 199
Loc: United States
So let say the judge rules in your favor that WDFW violated the Open Meetings Act in 2019 and consequently the regulations adopted are invalid. The judge tells WDFW they have to comply with the Open Meetings Act in the future and hence have to open up the NOF meetings to the public by video or whatever. A ruling in "state" court doesn't apply to the tribes so they don't have to have open meetings. WDFW has open NOF meetings without the tribes? What is that? They won't attend if they don't have to. They could just say good luck we're submitting our fisheries to BIA for a permit and you guys are on your own (like in 2015?). That worked out well. I am just trying to understand the end game here.

Top
#1021516 - 02/04/20 06:36 PM Re: LEGAL ACTION CHALLENGING SEASON SETTING PROCESS [Re: Rivrguy]
Carcassman Online   content
River Nutrients

Registered: 11/21/07
Posts: 7413
Loc: Olema,California,Planet Earth
It is not just about open meetings. It is about with actually complying with how the regulations are adopted. If I understand correctly, if WDFW did not comply with APA and did not follow the law then none of the regulations were legal. Which could mean that people who were cited for violations have pretty good grounds to appeal. But a lawyer might know that better.

Open meetings are just part of the issue. Complying with the law is another as well as providing public documents.

Top
#1021526 - 02/04/20 07:12 PM Re: LEGAL ACTION CHALLENGING SEASON SETTING PROCESS [Re: Rivrguy]
Great Bender Offline
Juvenile at Sea

Registered: 01/03/17
Posts: 155
Loc: Hood Canal
Well stated, CM. Accountability and compliance with the law are right up front in this suit.

Top
#1021558 - 02/05/20 09:41 AM Re: LEGAL ACTION CHALLENGING SEASON SETTING PROCESS [Re: darth baiter]
Bay wolf Offline
Repeat Spawner

Registered: 10/26/12
Posts: 1075
Loc: Graham, WA
Originally Posted By: darth baiter
So let say the judge rules in your favor that WDFW violated the Open Meetings Act in 2019 and consequently the regulations adopted are invalid. The judge tells WDFW they have to comply with the Open Meetings Act in the future and hence have to open up the NOF meetings to the public by video or whatever. A ruling in "state" court doesn't apply to the tribes so they don't have to have open meetings. WDFW has open NOF meetings without the tribes? What is that? They won't attend if they don't have to. They could just say good luck we're submitting our fisheries to BIA for a permit and you guys are on your own (like in 2015?). That worked out well. I am just trying to understand the end game here.


First, I want to be clear. THIS IS NOT MY LAWSUIT, NOR IS WASHINGTON CITIZEN SPORTSMEN A PART OF THE LAWSUIT. It is one of three lawsuits filed by a public citizen and jointly by The Twin Harbors Fish and Wildlife Advocacy. So in answering, I'm giving my opinion, not speaking for the litigants.

The lawsuit concerning the OPMA is about process. It alleges that the process that WDFW uses to create rules is not in compliance with the intent of the OPMA. Since you cannot sue for something that hasn't happened, it has to be over past violations.

If it's found that the Department's process is in violation, it's not up to the judge to tell them how to be in compliance, it's up to WDFW attorneys to do that.

If the Tribal/WDFW meetings are part of the violation, then it will rest on WDFW staff and it's attorneys on how to be compliant, and how to address the Tribes demands. And yes, the NWIFC could very well decided not to participate at all, which would open another issue that WDFW will have to deal with.

It's interesting to note however, the lawsuit is not about the Tribal/WDFW meetings in specific. It's about the process from start to finish. It's about the creation of a LOAF without proper public oversight, and then using the LOAF for permits and WAC creation.

As one jaded former employee told us. "If WDFW is found to be in violation, and are told to open the meetings. The way they will probably handle that is to have open meetings that are theater, like the public NOF meetings are, and just do the real meetings by telephone where the OPMA doesn't apply."

My hope is, through exposing the process for what it is...a sham, maybe, just maybe it will crack enough daylight that we might end up with a process where we (non-tribal citizens) are somewhat equal in the process. One can hope.

On the other hand, if it goes to a point where WDFW starts a fear campaign that," if we push too hard on the tribes, they will walk away and all is lost for us...no fishing." And the recreational fishing community collapses like they did during Coho gate in 15, well, we will probably end up with business as usual, where we are at the mercy of Tribal agreements in order for us to fish...but on much less fish....over and over and over....

Top
#1021574 - 02/05/20 11:51 AM Re: LEGAL ACTION CHALLENGING SEASON SETTING PROCESS [Re: Rivrguy]
Krijack Offline
Three Time Spawner

Registered: 06/03/06
Posts: 1531
Loc: Tacoma
Lots of scenarios if the state is told negotiations must be open to the public.
I believe that under Boldt and subsequent decisions, the tribes cannot walk away. They could show up and not negotiate in good faith but that would be open to the public. A simple refusal to negotiate should put them in contempt and force the courts to address the issue. Of course, that would require the state to have to sue or simply close seasons and not do any thing like they threatened to do in the past. Hopefully the state would put forth their objections or the Tribes will weigh in with their objections, and the current court can give their opinion to the issue of the tribes sovereignty, giving direction to the parties and any future courts that address the issue. It would be real hard for the State to say they have no options if the current court rules against them and lays out directions.


Edited by Krijack (02/05/20 11:52 AM)

Top
#1021655 - 02/05/20 07:42 PM Re: LEGAL ACTION CHALLENGING SEASON SETTING PROCESS [Re: darth baiter]
Larry B Offline
River Nutrients

Registered: 10/22/09
Posts: 3020
Loc: University Place and Whidbey I...
Originally Posted By: darth baiter
So let say the judge rules in your favor that WDFW violated the Open Meetings Act in 2019 and consequently the regulations adopted are invalid. The judge tells WDFW they have to comply with the Open Meetings Act in the future and hence have to open up the NOF meetings to the public by video or whatever. A ruling in "state" court doesn't apply to the tribes so they don't have to have open meetings. WDFW has open NOF meetings without the tribes? What is that? They won't attend if they don't have to. They could just say good luck we're submitting our fisheries to BIA for a permit and you guys are on your own (like in 2015?). That worked out well. I am just trying to understand the end game here.


Should that occur (again) the State should immediately go to NOAA for a temporary permit while the State prepares and submits for its own permit. Something they should have done years ago.
_________________________
Remember to immediately record your catch or you may become the catch!

It's the person who has done nothing who is sure nothing can be done. (Ewing)

Top
Page 4 of 7 < 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 >

Search

Site Links
Home
Our Washington Fishing
Our Alaska Fishing
Reports
Rates
Contact Us
About Us
Recipes
Photos / Videos
Visit us on Facebook
Today's Birthdays
CHUBS
Recent Gallery Pix
hatchery steelhead
Hatchery Releases into the Pacific and Harvest
Who's Online
0 registered (), 939 Guests and 1 Spider online.
Key: Admin, Global Mod, Mod
Newest Members
John Boob, Lawrence, I'm Still RichG, feyt, Freezeout
11498 Registered Users
Top Posters
Todd 28170
Dan S. 17149
Sol Duc 16138
The Moderator 14486
Salmo g. 13521
eyeFISH 12766
STRIKE ZONE 12107
Dogfish 10979
ParaLeaks 10513
Jerry Garcia 9160
Forum Stats
11498 Members
16 Forums
63773 Topics
645302 Posts

Max Online: 3001 @ 01/28/20 02:48 PM

Join the PP forums.

It's quick, easy, and always free!

Working for the fish and our future fishing opportunities:

The Wild Steelhead Coalition

The Photo & Video Gallery. Nearly 1200 images from our fishing trips! Tips, techniques, live weight calculator & more in the Fishing Resource Center. The time is now to get prime dates for 2018 Olympic Peninsula Winter Steelhead , don't miss out!.

| HOME | ALASKA FISHING | WASHINGTON FISHING | RIVER REPORTS | FORUMS | FISHING RESOURCE CENTER | CHARTER RATES | CONTACT US | WHAT ABOUT BOB? | PHOTO & VIDEO GALLERY | LEARN ABOUT THE FISH | RECIPES | SITE HELP & FAQ |