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#1028574 - 04/20/20 12:27 PM Tribes Dictate, not Negotiate.
Bay wolf Offline
Repeat Spawner

Registered: 10/26/12
Posts: 1062
Loc: Graham, WA
This was just posted by Mr. Brett Rosson, a member of the Puget Sound Sport fishing Advisory Group.

North of Falcon 2014 was the first time I heard mention of WDFW getting its own permit. This was also the first year that WDFW began to focus on Marine Area 7 (MA 7) as a place to start reducing chinook fishing opportunity in order to comply with NOAA mandated ‘conservation objectives’.

Back then, the Lake Washington and Mid Hood Canal stocks were really driving cuts (cuts mandated so as to be in compliance with NOAA’s guidelines for recovery of Endangered Species Act (ESA) listed stocks). These two stocks were concentrated in the mid to southern portion of the Sound, and so the majority of the restrictions or cuts were made to MA 9-10.

But in 2014 the focus of cuts shifted north, and have by and large remained there ever since. So in 2014 WDFW began by converting October from non-selective (able to keep non-clipped chinook) to a selective fishery (having to release of non-clipped fish), and that’s when the landslide truly began. Over the next six years, MA 7 chinook fishery was systematically whittled down. Our season went from eight months of non-selective chinook fishing in 2014 to TWO WEEKS of selective chinook fishing in 2020.

Now the average person would look at this and say, “wow, there must have been really good reason for this, or WDFW would not have cut this fishery by 93%". Looking at these cuts, one would have reasonably concluded that the number of chinook returning to Puget Sound, and in particular those passing through MA 7, had very significantly dropped off. Well, that person would be wrong.

You see, what really took place in 2014 is that WDFW was no longer in year-to-year negotiations with tribes to get an agreement on a fishing package to present to NOAA for approval. Because the previously agreed to ten-year chinook harvest management plan had expired, our permit to fish was now tied to (piggybacked) to the tribes permit. This piggybacking was intended to be a short term solution that allowed the state to continue to get an annual permit to fish while the two sides worked on an agreement for the next ten-year management plan. It was at the beginning of this interim period that the tribes began to dictate, not negotiate.
Brett Rosson

CLICK HERE:Memebers of the Puget Sound Sport Fishng Advisory Group

#1028578 - 04/20/20 01:01 PM Re: Tribes Dictate, not Negotiate. [Re: Bay wolf]
Lifter99 Offline
Juvenile at Sea

Registered: 12/01/18
Posts: 129
Tell us something we don't know.

#1028586 - 04/20/20 02:11 PM Re: Tribes Dictate, not Negotiate. [Re: Bay wolf]
Brent K Offline

Registered: 08/12/13
Posts: 91
Loc: Arlington, Washington
The late summer king fishery in MA 7 was one of the best in the state for those that new it well. The ironic thing is a lot of those kings are canadian fish. I never broke the 40lb mark but I caught a 32, 37, 38, and also saw a 33, 34, and 36 in the boat for other anglers. All but the 32 being caught from 2001-2011. I'm glad to say I fished it during my good old days but I'm sad to see future generations loose this fishery. Due to the SRKW situation and how WDFW does business I don't see that late summer fishery being open for a very long time, if ever.

#1028625 - 04/20/20 06:03 PM Re: Tribes Dictate, not Negotiate. [Re: Lifter99]
Todd Offline
Bumpin the 6X9's

Registered: 03/08/99
Posts: 25933
Loc: Seattle, Washington USA
Originally Posted By: Lifter99
Tell us something we don't know.


Fish on...


#1028693 - 04/20/20 11:13 PM Re: Tribes Dictate, not Negotiate. [Re: Bay wolf]
Bay wolf Offline
Repeat Spawner

Registered: 10/26/12
Posts: 1062
Loc: Graham, WA
So, I'm curious. I know there are some here who are tired of me "beating my drum" about problems in the North of Falcon.

We have concluded another NOF. And seen yet again, more drastic cuts.

We have eyewitnesses who say "The tribes didn't even pretend this year to negotiate..they came in, made their demands and WDFW caved".

So, I'm just wondering. What more can we possibly do to get the recreational fishermen fired up?

I see some really great anger and action going on about the temporary shut down. I would really like to see that kind of outrage about NOF?

So, is it that most guys are mad as hell, they just don't know what to do?

Or have most just given up...content that sport fishing will just continue to decline into non existence?

I've been on this board for a long time...I value many of you and your experience. Let me know...where is fire?

#1028695 - 04/21/20 03:49 AM Re: Tribes Dictate, not Negotiate. [Re: Bay wolf]
_WW_ Offline
Juvenile at Sea

Registered: 01/30/13
Posts: 220
Loc: Skagit
I suspect many folks can see the size of the hill that needs to be climbed and choose to go around it.
Catch & Release Is Not A Crime

#1028699 - 04/21/20 07:47 AM Re: Tribes Dictate, not Negotiate. [Re: Bay wolf]
Lifter99 Offline
Juvenile at Sea

Registered: 12/01/18
Posts: 129
A lot of people are pissed at WDFW for never getting their own permit. They (NOAA) said it would take 5 years for the WDFW to get their own permit. If they (WDFW) would have started the process back in 2014 or 2015 they would have their own permit and the tribes wouldn't have all the power.

#1028700 - 04/21/20 07:48 AM Re: Tribes Dictate, not Negotiate. [Re: Bay wolf]
Carcassman Offline
River Nutrients

Registered: 11/21/07
Posts: 5832
Loc: Olema,California,Planet Earth
The Tribes not negotiating is nothing new. Back in the 80s they came into a meeting with WA and OR (not NOF) and said here is our fishing pattern; work around it. One should note that there are more than 20 Tribes. The come into the meeting with a united front. The NI side? 37.000 different positions arguing with each other.

#1028701 - 04/21/20 07:49 AM Re: Tribes Dictate, not Negotiate. [Re: Bay wolf]
RUNnGUN Offline
Repeat Spawner

Registered: 12/06/07
Posts: 1044
So why are we not bypassing the dictator and applying to NOAA for our own season permits for 2021 and 2022, etc. now?
"After fishing for Steelhead for over 45 years, Steelheading as I know it is gone in Puget Sound!"

#1028702 - 04/21/20 08:04 AM Re: Tribes Dictate, not Negotiate. [Re: Bay wolf]
Blktailhunter Offline
Returning Adult

Registered: 08/07/09
Posts: 477
Which tribe is currently crabbing/shrimping in area 11?

#1028703 - 04/21/20 08:43 AM Re: Tribes Dictate, not Negotiate. [Re: Bay wolf]
snit Offline
Three Time Spawner

Registered: 03/08/99
Posts: 1634
Loc: Wenatchee, WA
Bay Wolf, I believe the average sportsman is very selfish with their time and focus. Not much (if any) is donated to/for the enhancement of the resource, assuming instead that:

A) it's already a lost cause
B) Continue pointing finger at issues that are almost too monumental to change (tribes, dams, weather patterns, etc)
C) I better "get my share" before all the other user groups get the season shut down because I bought my license
D) I joined "Blank, Group, Assoc" and sent a check, so I've donated. Now get off my back! I want my share, and it better be a bigger share than yours! BTW, who wants to go crabbing, I've got SO MUCH freezer burnt salmon and steelhead??
E) They're just going to die..see "C"
F) Someone always helps out, it's always the retired guys. They need something to do, as I'm just too busy with my work, plus they've already seen it when it was really good!! "Hey man, want to fish every weekend like we have since college, cause we're almost 50 and we don't have wife/kids? Heck yeah, bro"?!

The only way to get more involved is to have more taken more away, IMO. Unless there's a tipping point, and then the focus is lost.
..."the clock looked at me just like the devil in disguise"...

#1028705 - 04/21/20 08:59 AM Re: Tribes Dictate, not Negotiate. [Re: Bay wolf]
Lifter99 Offline
Juvenile at Sea

Registered: 12/01/18
Posts: 129
The Puyallup Tribe is now crabbing Area 11.

#1028706 - 04/21/20 09:06 AM Re: Tribes Dictate, not Negotiate. [Re: Blktailhunter]
Larry B Offline
River Nutrients

Registered: 10/22/09
Posts: 2831
Loc: University Place and Whidbey I...
Despite the lack of a strong rebound in the Dungeness crab resource (all size classes) in MA 11 the Puyallup tribe forced the issue and is currently crabbing there. Ongoing negotiations ultimately resulted in a reduction (approx 18%) in their original target harvest number and WDFW is now looking at how they might prosecute a recreational season on what is a low poundage and not exceed that share. More to come.
Remember to immediately record your catch or you may become the catch!

It's the person who has done nothing who is sure nothing can be done. (Ewing)

#1028707 - 04/21/20 09:09 AM Re: Tribes Dictate, not Negotiate. [Re: Bay wolf]
Lifter99 Offline
Juvenile at Sea

Registered: 12/01/18
Posts: 129
RUNnGUN. That is the $64,000 question. Why hasn't WDFW applied for there own permit? Has the Gov , tribes or someone else told them not to apply? I think a lot of people want to know. Maybe CM , Smalma or Salmo g. can give can suggest or give an answer on that.

#1028709 - 04/21/20 09:12 AM Re: Tribes Dictate, not Negotiate. [Re: Bay wolf]
Sky-Guy Offline
The Tide changed

Registered: 08/31/00
Posts: 7189
Loc: Everett
I wonder if any Puget Sound Fisheries advisors will speak out about how on Friday, the final day, the Advisory group majority consensus was to walk away from Negotiations this year, and the department chose to ignore this request and got up from the discussion and went and closed the deal?

Wouldn't you agree this is a story worth exploring and covering for the recreational constituency as a whole??

You know something bad is going to happen when you hear..."Hey, hold my beer and watch this"

#1028711 - 04/21/20 09:33 AM Re: Tribes Dictate, not Negotiate. [Re: Bay wolf]
Salmo g. Offline
River Nutrients

Registered: 03/08/99
Posts: 12870
Bay Wolf,

Cuts in harvest are unavoidable. By definition, when salmon abundance declines, then harvest must be reduced proportionately. I find that acceptable.

What I find unacceptable is for WDFW to announce that it values transparency and then makes significant decisions out of sight behind closed doors, keeps the means by which the important decision was made unknown. I find it unacceptable for WDFW to announce that the important decision was made for and is necessary for conservation, and then our independent analysis of the data shows that not to be true. In fact the decision was made because the tribes have leverage, through Department piggybacking on the tribal BIA permit, to coerce whatever demands they want on WDFW. The reason that is unacceptable is because it means the Department has made lying a part of official Department policy. Lying is a cover-up for further lack of transparency.

I also find it unacceptable for the Department to bite the hand that feeds it. By that I mean, WDFW expects us to support its full funding requests to fund and operate programs that offer little or no benefit to its constituents who pay the taxes and fees that keep the lights on and the doors open at WDFW. I'm old fashioned and expect to get something (not necessarily personally) for my money. The Department is broken and wants to keep it that way. I don't think that's acceptable. Reduced harvests when fish are less abundant is something I find completely acceptable. And therein is my difference with the Department.

BTW, I just learned that WDFW deems monitoring, like doing spawning surveys, an essential activity. OK, that sounds good to me. And WDFW got support for its supplemental budget request in the recent Legislative session. It's true that as a result of the pandemic, Governor Inslee vetoed some items in that supplemental request. But essential fish and wildlife monitoring was not among the vetoed items. However, WDFW is not planning to perform steelhead spawning surveys in Region 4, the Puget Sound area that includes the Skagit River - the very poster child for the need for funding to conduct essential monitoring in order that we might continue to have fishing. As eyeFISH would say, "GDITMMM!" It's almost like WDFW just can't pass up an opportunity to double cross its otherwise most ardent supporters.

#1028714 - 04/21/20 09:40 AM Re: Tribes Dictate, not Negotiate. [Re: Bay wolf]
Sky-Guy Offline
The Tide changed

Registered: 08/31/00
Posts: 7189
Loc: Everett
Also, some things never change. Read this older TE article in light of what happened at this years NOF:
You know something bad is going to happen when you hear..."Hey, hold my beer and watch this"

#1028719 - 04/21/20 09:52 AM Re: Tribes Dictate, not Negotiate. [Re: Bay wolf]
Smalma Offline
River Nutrients

Registered: 11/25/01
Posts: 2788
Loc: Marysville
Bay Wolf-

I appreciate what you and all the others are attempting to fix what is clearly a broken NOF process; which by the way has broken from its very first days.

However the seasons that we see at the end of this year's process are not the result of that broken process but rather two other much larger issues that we the fishers (whether tribal, commercial, or recreational) largely ignore. As begin the 3rd decade of managing fisheries targeting ESA listed PS Chinook it is clear that recovery efforts of those Chinook have failed miserably. It is also clear that society has spoken quite loudly that using ESA impacts to support fishing is of the lowest priorities of all possible uses.

The Stillaguamish Chinook have become the poster child of those recovery failures and what we saw this year is the new reality of Puget Sound Chinook fisheries. For those Chinook the combination of poor freshwater and marine survivals have made the Stillaguamish tribal conservation hatchery program essential for the continued existence of that listed population.

From my perspective any chance of reversing those realities is dependent on the all the fishers (tribal and non-tribal) uniting with a common voice and goal. Every year that chances of that occurring is less probable.


#1028731 - 04/21/20 10:28 AM Re: Tribes Dictate, not Negotiate. [Re: Salmo g.]
Steelheadman Offline
River Nutrients

Registered: 03/15/99
Posts: 3726
Loc: Poulsbo, WA,USA
Monitoring is now deemed essential by wdfw? Isn't what I heard a few weeks ago when I was trying to get them to come in and do a monitoring study in support of our permit. Oh well learned alot the past month having to deal with water, NEPA, historical resources, permits, tribes, and biologists. Back to the world of toxic waste on swings and some telecomuting taking a cleanup quallity assurance class.
I'd Rather Be Fishing for Summer Steelhead!

#1028739 - 04/21/20 11:07 AM Re: Tribes Dictate, not Negotiate. [Re: Bay wolf]
Krijack Offline
Repeat Spawner

Registered: 06/03/06
Posts: 1202
Loc: Tacoma
Like you, I too keep beating a dead horse. Everytime you hear the state claim they can do nothing, it is a lie. Boldt is an open court case and has provisions for when the tribes and states do not agree. The problem is, the state refuses to utilize these provisions and simply agrees to what the Tribes ask for.

Take for example the recent Puyallup Tribal crabbing. While this is under a different court case, the principal is the same. Many of you feel the State can do nothing. Well, take a look at what the manager for the area stated in a reply to my email. (In the past, I did not share some of my emails out of respect for responder. Most of them are simply working in the parameters allowed and should not be taking the blame for what is going on, However, when the state got sued recently, they went in the archives and released a large number of my emails that I was holding back to be kind, so in return, I am now sharing mine when appropriate.)

Hi ....
I appreciate you reaching out. We have been in preseason discussions with the Puyallup tribe but are currently not in agreement on this fishery plan for 2020. We are in the middle of developing our response to the recent regulation, so unfortunately I cannot comment fully on response at this time. However, to speak to some of your other questions, test fishing numbers do indicate crab abundances have improved in marine area 11, potentially allowing for some harvest opportunity for both the state and the tribes. As you know, marine area 11 has been closed for 2 years, so while the improved test fishing numbers are encouraging, we want to take a cautious approach this year. The harvest quota and corresponding season in this area still remains to be finalized.

In shellfish fisheries, there is a separate court decision referred to as the Refeedie decision. While there are many principles shared between the Boldt and Rafeedie decisions like an equal sharing principle, the legal framework surrounding times when the state and tribes disagree on fisheries is different. The current regulation from the Puyallup tribes as you said, is a regulation to go fishing without a comanager agreement. The state (or tribes if the tables were turned) then has the opportunity to challenge that regulation on grounds that the regulation contradicts key provisions of what’s called the Shellfish implementation plan. For example, IF we believed that this fishery would do undue harm to the resource, we could object on conservation grounds. This rarely happens as issues are often resolved prior to this point but it remains an option.

If you wouldn’t mind and are still interested in getting a final answer to the questions you posed that are outstanding, please feel free to send a follow up email in a few weeks. I should have much more solid information to pass onto you at that time.


Note the that they agree that they could object, but this rarely happens as the issues are resolved. I would go on to state that they never protest. If they do, it must be in situations that are so outrageous or, more likely, in which other tribes protest and the state steps in. I have no faith in them actually objecting. To be blunt, they are scared to do so, as they are convinced the Tribes will fight and try to bring up other issues, such as development and such. Whether the scale has tipped enough to warrant that risk is something I think most of us disagree with the State on. I also disagree with the level of risk, but given the way the department is run

If I am viewing this wrong, please let me know. So far I have not seen anything to make me believe I am. Simply put, there is no need for anything other than the State to utilize the resources already available. They just don's.

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