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#1030900 - 05/30/20 08:03 PM WFC at it again
Elijah Offline
Parr

Registered: 12/17/18
Posts: 50

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#1030901 - 05/30/20 08:22 PM Re: WFC at it again [Re: Elijah]
Salman Offline
Spawner

Registered: 03/07/12
Posts: 705
There would be a few more “peanuthead” Chinook in our waters if not for them.
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#1030903 - 05/30/20 09:40 PM Re: WFC at it again [Re: Salman]
Rivrguy Offline
River Nutrients

Registered: 03/03/09
Posts: 3472
Loc: Somewhere on the planet,I hope
Using Grays Harbor Chinook as an example AK will take 6139 W & 2860 H followed by BC 3169 W & 1478 H modeled harvest this year. ( should be noted BC has said US get AK off their fish they will get off ours ) The total take of fisheries North of WA ST is 13,648 and what is known as Southern fisheries WA ocean, tribal terminal, and all NT in river is 6,190. A bit back NOAA was credited with determining that if all mortalities from everything from draggers to C&R the loss is over 80% of harvestable prior to entering WA ST waters.

Bottom line is unless a federal judge stops the slaughter this continues as the 10 year Annex that sets harvest levels was just adopted a bit back. In other words WDFW agreed to this. Right now in the world of Chinook WFC is the only game in town trying to force a reduction in harvest outside WA ST waters. It is what it is.

Little edit here. I have said it before and I will say it again, it is not a question of IF but rather WHEN that mixed stock marine fisheries come to and end. When you add all the ESA salmon stocks and now the Orca situation it will be the perfect storm. The Orca pods and migrations are so well known there is no disputing the situation.


Edited by Rivrguy (05/30/20 09:54 PM)
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#1030904 - 05/30/20 09:42 PM Re: WFC at it again [Re: Elijah]
cobble cruiser Offline
~B-F-D~

Registered: 03/27/09
Posts: 2238
Too bad the WFC cant be sued for relentless and consistent harassment. Although the troll fishery is one of the factors in the decline in Chinook stocks, the article brings to light the elephant in the room with dams and habitat degredation in Washington. Cant disagree and WFC always seems to want to go after the easiest target in these lawsuits they constantly come up with. Whatever happened to Washington Trout (PRE WFC) when they were actually involved in stream rehabilitation and community involvement helping actual fish and not going after the big fish and settlements so to speak? I live in Duvall where they started and used to donate to them but i have lost all faith in them.
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#1030907 - 05/30/20 11:13 PM Re: WFC at it again [Re: cobble cruiser]
Brent K Offline
Smolt

Registered: 08/12/13
Posts: 91
Loc: Arlington, Washington
This is WFC's business model. Like so many other similar groups, they live on lawsuits and donations.

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#1030915 - 05/31/20 09:41 AM Re: WFC at it again [Re: Elijah]
GodLovesUgly Offline
Repeat Spawner

Registered: 04/20/09
Posts: 1220
Loc: WaRshington
In the past they have mostly gone after rec fisheries, and we all know how easily NMFS and WDFW roll over on recs. It's almost a non battle.

Will be interesting to see what the commercial sector has to say about it.... WFC may be biting off more than they can chew. It would be nice to see someone countersue them into bankruptcy.
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When I grow up I want to be,
One of the harvesters of the sea.
I think before my days are done,
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#1030916 - 05/31/20 10:53 AM Re: WFC at it again [Re: Elijah]
Carcassman Offline
River Nutrients

Registered: 11/21/07
Posts: 5855
Loc: Olema,California,Planet Earth
WFC has learned how to go after the low hanging (as laying on the ground) fruit. They win because the agencies they sue aren't doing their jobs. Otherwise, they wouldn't win.

As Rivrguy says, the marine mixed stock fisheries should have died long ago. Makes no ecological sense, little or no management sense, but is a great moneymaker.

As noted above, the ultimate solution to the low numbers of salmon and whales is to permanently fix the habitat. But, the wild Columbia salmon will never be restored until the dams come out. Period. But, even if we could magically remove them all tomorrow it would be a decade or more before production got up high enough to feed the whales. The ONLY short term solution is to stop killing the fish they eat (and the resources that feed those fish) until they passed by the whales and are no longer available to them. Otherwise, extinction.

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#1030919 - 05/31/20 11:32 AM Re: WFC at it again [Re: Elijah]
Salmo g. Offline
River Nutrients

Registered: 03/08/99
Posts: 12920
Amen to that, C'man.

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#1030920 - 05/31/20 11:32 AM Re: WFC at it again [Re: Carcassman]
Rivrguy Offline
River Nutrients

Registered: 03/03/09
Posts: 3472
Loc: Somewhere on the planet,I hope
The dams will stay until an alternate way of generating power is found, be it fusion or whatever. Take CM's magic wand and all cars & trucks are electric, then ask where does the power come from? Wind, solar, geothermal could put a small dent in it but not much. Coal, nuclear, more hydro are out so where does the power come from? Until that question is answered with a cost effective alternative nothing changes. In fish terms our only approach can be to reduce harvest to match the productivity of individual watersheds which will mean you have to address mixed stock fisheries over harvest. Harvest will still happen but it will be terminal based or where stock overlap is minimal.
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Dazed and confused.............the fog is closing in

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#1030932 - 05/31/20 02:19 PM Re: WFC at it again [Re: Elijah]
Carcassman Offline
River Nutrients

Registered: 11/21/07
Posts: 5855
Loc: Olema,California,Planet Earth
Before Larry chimes in, we need to be holistic. Pinnipeds need to be reduced to a level that their prey can support just like fisheries are reduced to where the stocks can support them.

At the end of the day, we need to determine how many people we want on this rock. That decides everything.

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#1030936 - 05/31/20 05:59 PM Re: WFC at it again [Re: Elijah]
RUNnGUN Offline
Repeat Spawner

Registered: 12/06/07
Posts: 1058
"Eliminating the tiny Chinook harvest in Southeast Alaska will not reduce the toxicity level in Puget Sound and greater Seattle area; the undeniable source of “peanuthead” offspring."
I'm sure the Eye Doc will be commenting on the term "Tiny harvest" soon? As far toxicity goes they don't stay here long enough to get toxic, and if more time would be provided for growth in AK waters, maybe they wouldn't be "Peanutheads". They go North and get harvested period. As far as WFC goes, glad their focus has changed away from recs minimal impacts. Maybe they would consider law suiting the factory trawler Chinook bye catch next?
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#1030937 - 05/31/20 06:07 PM Re: WFC at it again [Re: Carcassman]
RUNnGUN Offline
Repeat Spawner

Registered: 12/06/07
Posts: 1058
Originally Posted By: Carcassman
Before Larry chimes in, we need to be holistic. Pinnipeds need to be reduced to a level that their prey can support just like fisheries are reduced to where the stocks can support them.

At the end of the day, we need to determine how many people we want on this rock. That decides everything.


You can bet that Alaska fishermen out in the middle of nowhere have a weapon on board controlling pinnipeds at their leisure without scrutiny or prosecution. Something that used to happen in Puget Sound before the population boom 40 yrs ago.


Edited by RUNnGUN (05/31/20 06:09 PM)
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#1030944 - 05/31/20 08:15 PM Re: WFC at it again [Re: Elijah]
WDFW X 1 = 0 Offline
My Area code makes me cooler than you

Registered: 01/27/15
Posts: 3512
If only the riot crowd fished.

Send em downtown.

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#1030967 - 06/01/20 08:31 AM Re: WFC at it again [Re: WDFW X 1 = 0]
Rivrguy Offline
River Nutrients

Registered: 03/03/09
Posts: 3472
Loc: Somewhere on the planet,I hope
Quote:
Maybe they would consider law suiting the factory trawler Chinook bye catch next?


Now that would be interesting especially if it included all by catch as WA & OR have impacts also. I am on a private BB and this was discussed several times by folks well above my pay grade in knowledge. To boil it down several participants thoughts are that by catch mortality of Chinook in other species harvested exceeded the impacts of directed Chinook harvest.
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Dazed and confused.............the fog is closing in

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#1030968 - 06/01/20 08:42 AM Re: WFC at it again [Re: Carcassman]
blackmouth Offline
River Nutrients

Registered: 11/05/04
Posts: 2699
Loc: right place/wrong time
Originally Posted By: Carcassman
At the end of the day, we need to determine how many people we want on this rock. That decides everything.


And just who will be the determiner?
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"So it goes." Kurt Vonnegut jr.

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#1030994 - 06/01/20 12:50 PM Re: WFC at it again [Re: Elijah]
milt roe Offline
Spawner

Registered: 01/22/06
Posts: 920
Loc: tacoma
Assuming 80% mortality on Washington origin chinook from trawlers and mixed stock fisheries occurring beyond Washington State, a reduction of those impacts by half could potentially result in 3x more chinook returning to our State than currently do. Simple math. Thats with no habitat improvement, same human population pressures. And it would happen immediately, not 20 years from now. It makes a lot of sense to address those out of state impacts.

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#1031007 - 06/01/20 01:27 PM Re: WFC at it again [Re: milt roe]
Rivrguy Offline
River Nutrients

Registered: 03/03/09
Posts: 3472
Loc: Somewhere on the planet,I hope
In years past inland folks have had a rule. You restrict any marine or terminal commercial and the model says xx more fish will be back. At the end you always find many many more make it back. If restricted in the ocean reaching AK the numbers jump again. Simply put the governing agencies have about zero idea of the true impacts of fisheries. I think MR your correct and maybe being kind. If all fishery impacts on Chinook were stopped I think you would damage your laundry when the final escapement count came in. Then this Chinook are primarily 4 & 5 year fish so each year you did not impact the the number would increase as a 5 year fish has endured 4 years of harvest. The increased number and reduction in size seen in recent years would change little in generation one but by the time you got to gen 5 ( 25 yrs ) the size of Chinook would be dramatically increasing. Having worked with Chinook for 20 years you have no idea just how correct you are MR.


Edited by Rivrguy (06/01/20 06:29 PM)
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Dazed and confused.............the fog is closing in

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#1031080 - 06/02/20 07:10 AM Re: WFC at it again [Re: Elijah]
Carcassman Offline
River Nutrients

Registered: 11/21/07
Posts: 5855
Loc: Olema,California,Planet Earth
Ya got it Rivrguy except for the size thing. Right now, size of adult salmon in the N Pacific (coho and Chinook especially) is crashing due to food web issues. We have to not only stop killing the salmon out there but their food.

Back when I was working, there were some analyses that said it was the draw fisheries that were killing Yukon Chinook. But, because of the volume of fish taken in the trawls, the by catch was sub-miniscule. It may have been 50% of the run (made up number) but it was like 0.1%, or less, of the landed catch. As we know from selective fisheries, even low by catch numbers can have a huge impact.

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#1031085 - 06/02/20 09:19 AM Re: WFC at it again [Re: Carcassman]
Tug 3 Offline
Juvenile at Sea

Registered: 03/06/14
Posts: 142
Thanks, C-man.

Gosh, maybe having a commercial herring fishery in Puget sound isn't a good idea when we're trying to recover salmon?

Does anyone at WDFW know how to connect the dots to the salmon puzzle?

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#1031088 - 06/02/20 09:28 AM Re: WFC at it again [Re: Elijah]
Carcassman Offline
River Nutrients

Registered: 11/21/07
Posts: 5855
Loc: Olema,California,Planet Earth
Tug, you worked there. You KNOW the answer. Silos.

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