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#1034583 - 07/16/20 02:52 PM Lake Washington Sockeye
Elijah Offline
Parr

Registered: 12/17/18
Posts: 51
For those who took the bait that they fed us in building a new hatchery on the Cedar in 2010 thinking that they could produce a fishery on lake Washington. It has now been 10 yrs and nothing.
Too bad that they have not been able to deliver. They definitely spent a lot of tax payer dollars though. Wish there was some accountability.
Good to look back on history as a learning experience. Fish over the years adapt to certain hatcheries. The practice of changing that abruptly on the fish needs to be reconsidered as other hatcheries under "updating" in the future.
https://www.seattletimes.com/sports/othe...ye-salmon-eggs/

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#1034584 - 07/16/20 03:00 PM Re: Lake Washington Sockeye [Re: Elijah]
Carcassman Offline
River Nutrients

Registered: 11/21/07
Posts: 5883
Loc: Olema,California,Planet Earth
Ratepayer dollars. Seattle PUD pays for the hatchery.

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#1034587 - 07/16/20 03:09 PM Re: Lake Washington Sockeye [Re: Elijah]
bobrr Offline
Juvenile at Sea

Registered: 08/21/18
Posts: 130
I'm not surprised that "Elijah" missed that point. There are enough Fuc*ups with wdfw to go around without blaming [Bleeeeep!] they didn't do on them.

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#1034589 - 07/16/20 03:17 PM Re: Lake Washington Sockeye [Re: Elijah]
stonefish Online   content
King of the Beach

Registered: 12/11/02
Posts: 4895
Loc: Carkeek Park
Until they lower the number of returning fish needed to have a lake fishery, only one user group will be doing so.
I donít think it matters one bit how many fry they plant, hitting that 350k number isnít likely to happen.
SF
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#1034593 - 07/16/20 04:36 PM Re: Lake Washington Sockeye [Re: Elijah]
Carcassman Offline
River Nutrients

Registered: 11/21/07
Posts: 5883
Loc: Olema,California,Planet Earth
LW sockeye are toast, regardless of the goal.

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#1034594 - 07/16/20 05:13 PM Re: Lake Washington Sockeye [Re: Elijah]
stonefish Online   content
King of the Beach

Registered: 12/11/02
Posts: 4895
Loc: Carkeek Park
So Iíve heard it explain that as the lake has gotten cleaner, it has actually hurt the sockeye population.
True or not?
Then you have the knuckleheads that think killing native cutthroat will solve the sockeye problem.
Sure, letís kill native trout to protect hatchery fish.....
Stuff millions of fry into the lake and you expect cutthroat not to eat them?
To bad, because in place of a sockeye fishery we could have a world class trout fishery. Same goes for Sammamish but not related to sockeye.
SF
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#1034596 - 07/16/20 07:13 PM Re: Lake Washington Sockeye [Re: Elijah]
Salman Offline
Spawner

Registered: 03/07/12
Posts: 709
Canít stand the rules now include kokanee. Iím sure those are a byproduct of sockeye. People killing juvenile Sockeye could be a reason for low returns? For real Kokanee were never in the rule books only a short while ago. How many do the Indians take? Wasnít too long ago the average yearly return was over 100,000. Is it possible the drought of 14-15-16 has had a impact on these numbers?


Edited by Salman (07/16/20 07:14 PM)
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#1034631 - 07/17/20 10:25 AM Re: Lake Washington Sockeye [Re: Elijah]
Salmo g. Offline
River Nutrients

Registered: 03/08/99
Posts: 12949
Seattle Water Department, part of Seattle Public Utilities, paid for the Cedar River hatchery. It is funded by Water Department customers, not taxpayers.

A lot has changed in Lake Washington since the decision was made to construct a sockeye hatchery. The assemblage of predators on sockeye fry limits smolt production to less than it used to be. And the ocean conditions that are limiting productivity and survival of other salmon species has reached sockeye as well, based on the lower return of Baker sockeye this year. Lake Washington sockeye are derived from the Baker population, so they are the same stock. The Baker has enjoyed exceptionally good adult returns since 2010, after the new juvenile fish passage system was installed. But this year's return was forecast at around 14,000.

The upshot is that Lake Washington sockeye need to be re-evaluated in terms of contemporary productivity, capacity, and diversity parameters. The 360,000 spawning escapement goal dates to the late 1960s. It was flawed then, and remains so to this day.

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#1034633 - 07/17/20 10:37 AM Re: Lake Washington Sockeye [Re: Elijah]
Carcassman Offline
River Nutrients

Registered: 11/21/07
Posts: 5883
Loc: Olema,California,Planet Earth
LW should simply be converted to walleye. They'll do better in the current and future conditions.

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#1034848 - 07/20/20 06:01 PM Re: Lake Washington Sockeye [Re: Carcassman]
Priority2 Offline
Parr

Registered: 04/17/15
Posts: 58
Please correct me if I am wrong..
Someone does have a LW sockey fishery every year..

THE TRIBES....
The Tribes fish before the locks and report thier catch to WDFW.

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#1034855 - 07/20/20 07:54 PM Re: Lake Washington Sockeye [Re: Carcassman]
NickD90 Online   content
Shooting Instructor for hire

Registered: 10/26/10
Posts: 6740
Loc: Snohomish, WA
Originally Posted By: Carcassman
LW should simply be converted to walleye. They'll do better in the current and future conditions.


Over Cutties? Say goodbye to a potential worldclass cutty fishery and everything else that swims in that lake. There are a handful in there now, but I'm not sold that's enough to establish a blooming population.

Besides would anyone actually eat resident Walleye out of there? Nasty.

IMO - it should be managed for big cutties. Very few big cutty lakes around any metro area in the world (or even in the wild). If it was managed, developed and marketed correctly, guys would come from all over to catch 5 - 15 pound fish. Manage it right and 20 pounders wouldn't be out of the question. There's guys in CO, WY, MT that would die to be able to fish over consistent big cutties.

Tough call and interesting convo - you probably know the science a billions times better than I do.


Edited by NickD90 (07/20/20 07:55 PM)
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#1034878 - 07/21/20 07:18 AM Re: Lake Washington Sockeye [Re: NickD90]
Salman Offline
Spawner

Registered: 03/07/12
Posts: 709
Originally Posted By: NickD90
Originally Posted By: Carcassman
LW should simply be converted to walleye. They'll do better in the current and future conditions.


Over Cutties? Say goodbye to a potential worldclass cutty fishery and everything else that swims in that lake. There are a handful in there now, but I'm not sold that's enough to establish a blooming population.

Besides would anyone actually eat resident Walleye out of there? Nasty.

IMO - it should be managed for big cutties. Very few big cutty lakes around any metro area in the world (or even in the wild). If it was managed, developed and marketed correctly, guys would come from all over to catch 5 - 15 pound fish. Manage it right and 20 pounders wouldn't be out of the question. There's guys in CO, WY, MT that would die to be able to fish over consistent big cutties.

Tough call and interesting convo - you probably know the science a billions times better than I do.

It should be managed for Sockeye. Half the state can fit in that lake when it actually has a season.
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#1034884 - 07/21/20 09:00 AM Re: Lake Washington Sockeye [Re: Elijah]
Carcassman Offline
River Nutrients

Registered: 11/21/07
Posts: 5883
Loc: Olema,California,Planet Earth
If sockeye could live there then it makes a great sockeye lake. They are showing that thy can't survive, for a variety of reasons that are well known; too many competing species (rotenone the whole lake and start over??), Ship Canal too warm for adults, spawning streams too unstable, ocean conditions shifting in a bad way, too many competing pinks and chum in the N Pacific.

Cutthroat would be interesting. A "World Class" fishery would require extreme reductions in CT harvest in order to allow them to grow. They primarily use the small (heavily urbanized) creeks for spawning. Those gonna be restored?

Walleye can stay in the lake, so the Ship Canal and streamflows are not a big issue. They would eat a lot of the pike minnow, smelt, and such. They would also be available for a year-round fishery (15-20 minutes for sockeye given the effort levels). A problem would be eating them, especially the larger ones. They would also be wild, so the cost to produce goes down. I think walleye have shown that they can live and flourish in urban and suburban areas, as opposed to wild salmonids.

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#1034916 - 07/21/20 08:12 PM Re: Lake Washington Sockeye [Re: Elijah]
milt roe Offline
Spawner

Registered: 01/22/06
Posts: 922
Loc: tacoma
Every productive natural Sockeye population I am aware of runs on a fairly predictable 4 year cycle of boom and bust. That suggests that there is something that naturally dampens high returns of sockeye adults from ocurring every year. This is almost certainly a freshwater biological predator/prey/forage interaction issue.

A hatchery that dumps out high numbers of juveniles into the lake every year is contrary to how sockeye typically work. Years of low juvenile abundance may be essential to set the table for years of high returns. This was a predictable outcome that several of us commented on here when the hatchery was promoted as the great solution.

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#1034917 - 07/21/20 09:05 PM Re: Lake Washington Sockeye [Re: Carcassman]
stonefish Online   content
King of the Beach

Registered: 12/11/02
Posts: 4895
Loc: Carkeek Park
Originally Posted By: Carcassman


Cutthroat would be interesting. A "World Class" fishery would require extreme reductions in CT harvest in order to allow them to grow. They primarily use the small (heavily urbanized) creeks for spawning. Those gonna be restored?


Those spawning streams arenít pristine by any standard, but they still produce a decent numbers of fish.
My point is you have wild trout in a very urban setting.
Iíd rather see the lake managed for a native species like the cutthroat then for hatchery fish like the sockeye that if you are lucky might get to fish for once a decade.
Itís been what, 14 years since the last season? That program has been a great success....for one user group.
The past few times there has been public input Iíve requested that the limit be reduced to two cutthroat. Iím not sure anyone would want to eat anymore then that based on the health advisories on them.
I also like to see the limit dropped to two on Sammamish as well.
You see guides taking two anglers then posting pictures of 15 fish because they kept a guide limit also, then folks bitching later in the year how cutthroat fishing sucks and nothing but small fish.
I wonder the [Bleeeeep!] why?
WDFW says there are enough fish to withstand the current bag limits.
Where have we heard that before before things go to hell.
After talking to a couple of their employees at last years NOF meeting I got the feeling they have no clue what the population of cutts are in either lake.

Just my take on things and I doubt weíll ever get to see the true potential of either lake.
SF


Edited by stonefish (07/22/20 07:49 AM)
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#1034945 - 07/22/20 01:16 PM Re: Lake Washington Sockeye [Re: Elijah]
NickD90 Online   content
Shooting Instructor for hire

Registered: 10/26/10
Posts: 6740
Loc: Snohomish, WA
I've caught some real dandy Cutts in there trolling for other fish. 5 - 10 pounders are decently common. As known, the Sammy slough and tribs have lots of big breeders that push in during their spring spawning season. I know of a shore spot where I can have my lunch and watch many, many oversized females fin around and do their spawning thing.

I'm certain a reduced bag limit would help immediately. Based lots of other gold and blue medal trout waters I've fished, a daily limit of one fish over 16" would help tremendously. Within 2 - 3 years, there would be plenty of oversized trophy fish to C&R. Not everything has to die. That's Washington's biggest problem. Everyone here expects to kill something instead of just enjoying the sport. Lee Wulff has a famous quote that applies IMO...
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#1034956 - 07/22/20 04:27 PM Re: Lake Washington Sockeye [Re: Elijah]
Carcassman Offline
River Nutrients

Registered: 11/21/07
Posts: 5883
Loc: Olema,California,Planet Earth
I think Nick hit the nail on head. Ya gotta be able to kill a fish in WA to have it be worth fishing for.

Have a good friend that when I mention certain places I want to fish he asks "Why, you can't kill anything". He fishes to eat, which is fine.


Edited by Carcassman (07/22/20 04:29 PM)

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#1034958 - 07/22/20 04:41 PM Re: Lake Washington Sockeye [Re: Carcassman]
NickD90 Online   content
Shooting Instructor for hire

Registered: 10/26/10
Posts: 6740
Loc: Snohomish, WA
Originally Posted By: Carcassman
I think Nick hit the nail on head. Ya gotta be able to kill a fish in WA to have it be worth fishing for.

Have a good friend that when I mention certain places I want to fish he asks "Why, you can't kill anything". He fishes to eat, which is fine.


It's ingrained from previous times of plenty and from having a vast open ocean at your doorstep. I get the "why", but in other landlocked places, fishing like that in perpetuity results in zero fishery after a bit of time. It's kinda common sense if you ask me.

Gee - I wonder if that isn't a part of the problem we are having here now? Just so everyone knows, you are not less of a man or fisherman if you don't limit the boat. It's not the end all, be all of a "successful" day on the water. Just sayin'. wink
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#1034960 - 07/22/20 04:47 PM Re: Lake Washington Sockeye [Re: NickD90]
Larry B Offline
River Nutrients

Registered: 10/22/09
Posts: 2866
Loc: University Place and Whidbey I...
Originally Posted By: NickD90
I've caught some real dandy Cutts in there trolling for other fish. 5 - 10 pounders are decently common. As known, the Sammy slough and tribs have lots of big breeders that push in during their spring spawning season. I know of a shore spot where I can have my lunch and watch many, many oversized females fin around and do their spawning thing.

I'm certain a reduced bag limit would help immediately. Based lots of other gold and blue medal trout waters I've fished, a daily limit of one fish over 16" would help tremendously. Within 2 - 3 years, there would be plenty of oversized trophy fish to C&R. Not everything has to die. That's Washington's biggest problem. Everyone here expects to kill something instead of just enjoying the sport. Lee Wulff has a famous quote that applies IMO...


To what extent is that cutthroat fishery (numbers and size) dependent upon all of those sockeye being reared and released into the lake? Would eliminating those hatchery fish trigger the law of unintended consequences? Serious questions.
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#1034964 - 07/22/20 06:52 PM Re: Lake Washington Sockeye [Re: Elijah]
Carcassman Offline
River Nutrients

Registered: 11/21/07
Posts: 5883
Loc: Olema,California,Planet Earth
More likely they are eating the smelt. Plus, there are the Issaquah Chinook. The sockeye are no longer producing that much. Plus, you'd have the native cyprinids.

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