#1034965 - 07/22/20 07:00 PM
Re: Lake Washington Sockeye
[Re: Elijah]
|
King of the Beach
Registered: 12/11/02
Posts: 5206
Loc: Carkeek Park
|
I think the cutts would have no problem surviving. Smelt, sticklebacks, perch, sculpin just to name a few food sources. I would be surprised if some small sm and lm bass fall victim as well. The biomass of incests in Lake Wa has to be huge and chironomids hatch year round in western WA. As CM said, you’d still have salmon coming into the lake out of Issaquah creek. SF
_________________________
Go Dawgs! Founding Member - 2023 Pink Plague Opposition Party #coholivesmatter
|
Top
|
|
|
|
#1034968 - 07/22/20 07:25 PM
Re: Lake Washington Sockeye
[Re: stonefish]
|
Shooting Instructor for hire
Registered: 10/26/10
Posts: 7260
Loc: Snohomish, WA
|
I think the cutts would have no problem surviving. Smelt, sticklebacks, perch, sculpin just to name a few food sources. I would be surprised if some small sm and lm bass fall victim as well. The biomass of incests in Lake Wa has to be huge and chironomids hatch year round in western WA. As CM said, you’d still have salmon coming into the lake out of Issaquah creek. SF Plus crawdads and whatnot. I know for a fact that they follow behind fall Coho looking for snacks, so there's that too. There's plenty of biomass in Lake WA, of which, young Sockeye eat very little - but the Cutties are all over. Places like Pyramid & Lenore have considerably less biomass and they still pump out fantastic fish.
_________________________
“If the military were fighting for our freedom, they would be storming Capitol Hill”. – FleaFlickr02
|
Top
|
|
|
|
#1035006 - 07/23/20 08:25 AM
Re: Lake Washington Sockeye
[Re: Elijah]
|
River Nutrients
Registered: 11/21/07
Posts: 7431
Loc: Olema,California,Planet Earth
|
Pyramid and Lenore are considerably more productive than LW. LW is comparatively sterile. In Pyramid, it is a two species lake, for fish. The cui-ui eat the various plankters and larger inverts and the Lahontans convert that to big fish. In Lenore I don't think there are any other fish so the Lahontans get all the bugs.
You could have a decent CT population in the lake but it would be limited by the amount of good spawning habitat. The bigger cutts you have, the bigger the spawning stream. Need to preserve and likely restore the quality of Sammamish, Cedar, and Issaquah.
The bass would be predators/competitors with them, at least at certain stages. We know from decades of experience in WA lowland lakes that the various trouts (rainbow and cutts) did better when there weren't competitors.
But, given enough protection from harvest/release mortality so that they can grow to an old age and providing good spawning habitat you could have a fairly nice population of resident cutts in the main lake.
|
Top
|
|
|
|
#1035048 - 07/23/20 01:59 PM
Re: Lake Washington Sockeye
[Re: Carcassman]
|
Shooting Instructor for hire
Registered: 10/26/10
Posts: 7260
Loc: Snohomish, WA
|
Pyramid and Lenore are considerably more productive than LW. LW is comparatively sterile. In Pyramid, it is a two species lake, for fish. The cui-ui eat the various plankters and larger inverts and the Lahontans convert that to big fish. In Lenore I don't think there are any other fish so the Lahontans get all the bugs.
You could have a decent CT population in the lake but it would be limited by the amount of good spawning habitat. The bigger cutts you have, the bigger the spawning stream. Need to preserve and likely restore the quality of Sammamish, Cedar, and Issaquah.
The bass would be predators/competitors with them, at least at certain stages. We know from decades of experience in WA lowland lakes that the various trouts (rainbow and cutts) did better when there weren't competitors.
But, given enough protection from harvest/release mortality so that they can grow to an old age and providing good spawning habitat you could have a fairly nice population of resident cutts in the main lake. I guess I didn't realize that about Pyramid and Lenore because they are alkaline and I assumed that meant a reduced biomass food supply (in water bugs). Like I said, you know the biology better than I do, so I defer to your expertise. Regardless, it does seem like Lake WA Sockeye are a waste of time and resources that could be better served elsewhere. The definition of insanity is doing the same thing over and over and expecting different results. Do we not, by now, have enough history and quantifiable data to prove that Lake WA Socks are a wild goose chase? Does the state realize this or are the tribes blocking progress? They get the scraps today, so why would they vote for anything other than the status quo?
_________________________
“If the military were fighting for our freedom, they would be storming Capitol Hill”. – FleaFlickr02
|
Top
|
|
|
|
#1035061 - 07/23/20 04:25 PM
Re: Lake Washington Sockeye
[Re: Elijah]
|
Dick Nipples
Registered: 03/08/99
Posts: 28170
Loc: Seattle, Washington USA
|
Unfortunately the utility of the hatchery has performed 100% in line with the easy math that many of us were pointing out when it was proposed...at best, it would provide one extra season per decade.
At best.
Unless they reduced the escapement goal...in which case, they wouldn't need the hatchery at all, there were plenty of fish to fish for at a reduced E-goal before the hatchery, and almost no more fish now than there were then.
Fish on...
Todd
_________________________
Team Flying Super Ditch Pickle
|
Top
|
|
|
|
#1035066 - 07/23/20 05:25 PM
Re: Lake Washington Sockeye
[Re: Elijah]
|
Spawner
Registered: 01/22/06
Posts: 925
Loc: tacoma
|
Yep. The system as left alone was producing fishable numbers with no help or money. Still can. The hatchery made it worse not better, thanks to advocates who didn’t understand basic biology of sockeye but had the ear of the Policy folks. Any of you hatchery advocates like to weigh-in?
|
Top
|
|
|
|
#1035103 - 07/23/20 07:45 PM
Re: Lake Washington Sockeye
[Re: Elijah]
|
River Nutrients
Registered: 11/21/07
Posts: 7431
Loc: Olema,California,Planet Earth
|
I believe that the hatchery failed because the sockeye themselves are failing in the system. Smolt numbers down, predation in the Cedar on fry can be really high some years, more in-lake competition (smelt) and the water is too clean. Add to that the increased temperatures in the Ship Canal and your pre-spawn mortality jumps.
The massive pink and chum hatchery production from Alaska, Jaan, and Russia are creating massive problems in the N Pacific. Note that Fraser sockeye, without the aid of hatcheries, are crashing too.
Lake WA, with all the species present and other habitat issues, simply can't support sockeye any more.
|
Top
|
|
|
|
#1035132 - 07/24/20 07:13 AM
Re: Lake Washington Sockeye
[Re: Elijah]
|
Spawner
Registered: 03/07/12
Posts: 806
|
Time to shut the hatchery down and use it for Cutthroat.
_________________________
Why build in the flood plain?
|
Top
|
|
|
|
#1035136 - 07/24/20 07:38 AM
Re: Lake Washington Sockeye
[Re: Elijah]
|
River Nutrients
Registered: 11/21/07
Posts: 7431
Loc: Olema,California,Planet Earth
|
Why? Shut it down sure but why produce cutthroat? That hatchery is designed to simply incubate eggs with no or very minimal rearing. Relatively very little water is used/permitted for diversion. Rearing of fish to a large release size will require lots more water, lots more infrastructure, and lots more operating cost.
If the lake is so good for cutthroat, manage for it? Why not be satisfied with what the system can produce?
|
Top
|
|
|
|
#1035139 - 07/24/20 07:58 AM
Re: Lake Washington Sockeye
[Re: Elijah]
|
Dick Nipples
Registered: 03/08/99
Posts: 28170
Loc: Seattle, Washington USA
|
Managing for cutthroat is actually pretty easy...don't kill them all, and get out of the way. They are doing just fine on their own if we don't kill them all.
Somehow the fact that that is both true, and cost zero dollars, probably is not enough to do it right. If "managing for cutthroat" were the choice of the day, we'd spend about 600 million dollars to make them extinct in three generations.
Fish on...
Todd
_________________________
Team Flying Super Ditch Pickle
|
Top
|
|
|
|
#1035140 - 07/24/20 08:11 AM
Re: Lake Washington Sockeye
[Re: Elijah]
|
River Nutrients
Registered: 11/21/07
Posts: 7431
Loc: Olema,California,Planet Earth
|
Surprising how quickly many species have rebounded when we stopped killing them. Apparently, that is rarely the option of choice.
|
Top
|
|
|
|
|
0 registered (),
1323
Guests and
2
Spiders online. |
Key:
Admin,
Global Mod,
Mod
|
|
11498 Members
16 Forums
63779 Topics
645378 Posts
Max Online: 3001 @ 01/28/20 02:48 PM
|
|
|