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#1061926 - 05/24/23 09:35 AM Re: Hope for wild Chinook [Re: darth baiter]
Salmo g. Offline
River Nutrients

Registered: 03/08/99
Posts: 13523
Originally Posted By: darth baiter
Chinook in the Patagonia region have a much more diverse genetic ancestry than just "Kalama and Cowlitz springer runs". This 2017 report states that "Patagonian Chinook clearly had a diverse and heterogeneous ancestry". It does state though that West Cascades springs (ie Cowlitz) contributed substantially to the populations in the southern river basins. It is a hodgepodge of genotypes showing up besides Cowlitz springs that included Willamette springs, West Cascade falls (Bonneville, Cowlitz) and of course Soos Creek (Green/Duwamish). It was mostly Washington and Oregon stocks.

https://www.nature.com/articles/s41598-017-14465-y


That's a fascinating read Darth. Thanks!

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#1061927 - 05/24/23 10:17 AM Re: Hope for wild Chinook [Re: Carcassman]
5 * General Evo Offline
Lord of the Chums

Registered: 03/29/14
Posts: 6829
i meant to say originally, it wasnt until the late 1980s that they started using other stocks, originally in the late 1800s, they used stock from California systems and it failed...

in the early 80s they used stock from the Kalama and Cowlitz and it took off, then they started using stocks from Oregon, Wa, and BC...
_________________________
BLM IS A TERRORIST ORGANIZATION
ANTIFA IS A TERRORIST ORGANIZATION


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#1062026 - 06/12/23 03:04 PM Re: Hope for wild Chinook [Re: Carcassman]
GodLovesUgly Offline
Repeat Spawner

Registered: 04/20/09
Posts: 1270
Loc: WaRshington
The Chilean "hatchery" origin salmon successfully self sorting, populating, reproducing, and living to be 5 year old GIANTS kind of pokes a few holes in WFC "science" behind inferior hatchery genetics, don't you think?

If hatchery origin genetics are so inferior, why do Chilean Chinook look like this?:





Oh yeah, these genetically inferior completely incapable inept and toxic hatchery origin strays also just produced WORLD RECORD Chinook genetics:

https://www.peninsuladailynews.com/opinion/pat-neal-the-tale-of-the-100-pound-salmon/#:~:text=A%20new%20world%2Drecord%20Chinook,was%20a%2097%2Dpound%20monster.

It's super interesting to me that the evil dreaded hatchery fish can somehow at the same time be both (1) completely incapable of survival do to lack of fitness and totally deleterious if bred with Wild and at the same time (2) so successful at utilizing habitat and finding food to eat they are outcompeting there supposedly superior wild counterparts.
_________________________
When I grow up I want to be,
One of the harvesters of the sea.
I think before my days are done,
I want to be a fisherman.

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#1062027 - 06/12/23 05:08 PM Re: Hope for wild Chinook [Re: Carcassman]
Smalma Offline
River Nutrients

Registered: 11/25/01
Posts: 2844
Loc: Marysville
Look what happens when you eliminate ocean fisheries and gill nets; the fish revert back to sizes that worked for them in nature.

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#1062028 - 06/12/23 06:24 PM Re: Hope for wild Chinook [Re: Carcassman]
Carcassman Offline
River Nutrients

Registered: 11/21/07
Posts: 7428
Loc: Olema,California,Planet Earth
Those runs were obviously started with hatchery fish but that is now stopped. Natural selection has removed the non-adaptive genes. The problem we have up here is that we put the inferior fish on the grounds annually and in many cases they are the majority. Selection never has a chance.

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#1062029 - 06/12/23 07:27 PM Re: Hope for wild Chinook [Re: Carcassman]
GodLovesUgly Offline
Repeat Spawner

Registered: 04/20/09
Posts: 1270
Loc: WaRshington
My comment is obviously largely tongue in cheek.

Case in point in ~10 generations mostly unmolested these fish have proliferated and established life histories and age classes thought to be largely extinct here in the PNW.

Sure seems as though the habitat and climate arguments may not be the primary driver for size and abundance decreases here at home.

Maybe if we stopped killing all the fish and sending them to Costco in New Mexico they would have a chance to grow up and spawn in what habitat we do have available.
_________________________
When I grow up I want to be,
One of the harvesters of the sea.
I think before my days are done,
I want to be a fisherman.

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#1062030 - 06/13/23 07:47 AM Re: Hope for wild Chinook [Re: Carcassman]
Carcassman Offline
River Nutrients

Registered: 11/21/07
Posts: 7428
Loc: Olema,California,Planet Earth
The primary age classes down there, at least as reported at the meeting, were 2-3-4. I am looking for more information on if that is shifting. They are getting lots of age-2 females so it's not just jacks at that age.

Habitat not a problem here? They have rather intact habitat. They do present an interesting ecological study as they are a rather invasive species moving into areas just recently opened. They are moving into systems where nothing like them exists which is like what the salmon did here when the glaciers retreated 15,000 ybp.

But, at the end of the day, we kill too many of them, too much of their food, not enough of their enemies, and in general act like we couldn't be bothered if the wink out.

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#1062036 - 06/14/23 07:39 AM Re: Hope for wild Chinook [Re: Carcassman]
RUNnGUN Offline
Repeat Spawner

Registered: 12/06/07
Posts: 1383
_________________________
"Life moves pretty fast. If you don't stop and look around once in a while, you could miss it. Ferris Bueller.
Don't let the old man in!

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#1062039 - 06/14/23 05:23 PM Re: Hope for wild Chinook [Re: Smalma]
eyeFISH Offline
Ornamental Rice Bowl

Registered: 11/24/03
Posts: 12767
Originally Posted By: Smalma
Look what happens when you eliminate ocean fisheries and gill nets; the fish revert back to sizes that worked for them in nature.
BINGO!
_________________________
"Let every angler who loves to fish think what it would mean to him to find the fish were gone." (Zane Grey)

"If you don't kill them, they will spawn." (Carcassman)


The Keen Eye MD
Long Live the Kings!

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#1062040 - 06/14/23 05:48 PM Re: Hope for wild Chinook [Re: RUNnGUN]
eyeFISH Offline
Ornamental Rice Bowl

Registered: 11/24/03
Posts: 12767
Originally Posted By: RUNnGUN
Nice TULES!
_________________________
"Let every angler who loves to fish think what it would mean to him to find the fish were gone." (Zane Grey)

"If you don't kill them, they will spawn." (Carcassman)


The Keen Eye MD
Long Live the Kings!

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#1062042 - 06/15/23 10:14 AM Re: Hope for wild Chinook [Re: Carcassman]
Paul Smenis Offline
Repeat Spawner

Registered: 08/02/12
Posts: 1052
Loc: In a drift boat...
What I have found to be interesting in reading up on these fish is the cultural difference in attitude towards commercial fishing. The limited access to these wild streams, and the fact there isn't a major (paved) road lining every stream. It's almost like they apricate the abundance of natural recourses that surround them...
_________________________
YOUR MOTHER IS A TULE!


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#1062043 - 06/15/23 11:57 AM Re: Hope for wild Chinook [Re: Carcassman]
Carcassman Offline
River Nutrients

Registered: 11/21/07
Posts: 7428
Loc: Olema,California,Planet Earth
That or the land is remote. Lots of it is in National Parks.

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