Here is proof that the tribes are the largest and most powerful special interest group in the state of Washington.
Let's take the nisqually river for an example.
The Nisqually's fish the river sunday through wensday, no big deal , that has been there schedule for years. Now here is the catch, they also control the river flows, so the night before they start fishing they kick up the water to draw in the fish, then when the are done they drop it back down thus giving them a shot at essentailly 100% of all returning fish because in a low water year like this year those fish will not come in or move until the flows increase so it is another case of the indians manipulating the state and [Bleeeeep!] the sportsmen again and again
Maybe they could use a little lube on us once in a while. I am getting so sick and tired of this crap. If everyone could please e-mail these poachers and our elected officials at http://www.nwifc.wa.gov maybe we can get something done.
peace Superfly

Why do all governments care so much about natives!!!????? If they complain about discrimination....shouldn't we when they get to net all the fish!!!??? Up in BC...natives dont have to have a license for fishing...but i do?Ahhhhh!I have to pay 15$ for a tag to take a big rainbow trout...and they dont?Ahhhh!This cheeses me off!


[ 08-06-2001: Message edited by: 404 Error*File Not Found ]

Why would give the state give over control over dams for this river? Are there also other rivers that they control the water levels to thier likening, seems very fishy.
Fortuately for them and not the sportsman.
Hard to believe this is true.

be careful about blaming the Indians for all our problems. they want the runs to return as much or more than we do and thay are the only ones that have the legal clout to get things done. I fish on rivers that there would not be any salmon in if it wernt for the indians. I dont agree with every thing they do but on my side of the state I see them as an ally more than an enemy.maybe you guys should be working whith them instead of against them. ps. Im not indian nor am I affiliated whith them in any way!!!

It is true, It is goverened by the Nisqually river council which gives the indians by contract the right to control the river flows. Once again some backdoor closed meeting in which this was done, just watch the water level board and see how it jumps up from sunday to wensday then back down on thursday.
I do agree with you though on the point that the feds along with the Yakimas have put fish back where there were none, but remember that is all because of the deal the feds and bpa cut with the tribes way back when, so they are not doing all on there own or with there own money.
Peace Superfly

Not only a little lube Joe, but maybe at least a reach around now and then would be nice. But we won't get that. I have been involved in the Indian netting fishing issues for quite a while now. I used to be optimistic and tried to be understanding about their positions, and work toward a fairer solution. What I have found though, particularly concerning the Columbia Tribes, is that they simply are not interested what-so-ever in fishing rights or benefit for sportsfishermen. Any benefit we derive from their self-serving efforts is a by product of them pushing every button they can and beyond, ethical or not, to get as much fish as they can - including devious Gov. arm twisting to get an unfair allocation of fish than they are legally entitled to. And way more than the non-Indians are getting, despite Treaty and Federal Court review decisions that counter-indicate this by law! And despite the Gov. given right to run so many heavy electricity using (from the dams they have damned - and that my ancestors had nothing to do with) gambling casinos, that are hugely profitable and were earmarked as partial compensation for lost fishing income potential from dam fish losses. ...

Furthermore, since extensive Canadian use and American testing of the newer 'tooth tangle' nets have been very successful for both harvest and release of wild fish not killed quickly (as the mono gillnets do), the non-Indian commercial fishermen will henceforth have to go to using them to help save the wild runs of fish - and their jobs. The Tribes of Washington and Oregon were asked (urged?) by the states to go to these more selective nets also - but they ALL rejected that idea, likely because they have to attend the nets more regularly instead of letting them sit until they come back around and likely because they want to harvest native fish. ...

Furthermore, the Tribes are attempting unethical legal armtwisting again to get the feds to stop the states from finclipping hatchery fish!!! Why? So the sportsfishers don't get short seasons such as on the Columbia springers this year - while they keep mono gillnetting fish, including the wild ones. Why don't they care about killing off wild fish? Strong credible speculation has arisen that it's because if the wild runs are netted into extinction the Tribes will get a HUGE monetary Gov. payoff in compensation because the dams (that they use too) will have been more responsible than their gillnets. And in addition to a huge payoff, they will get big hatchery program fish to keep netting and selling half stale out of the back of pickup trucks - and at places such as Pike Place Market. Ugly! ...

Joe is right about this situation. We are getting it up the ass over this crap and the Government doesn't have the sense or balls to get it right! I have tried for 2 years to get sportfishers to get into writing campaigns to state and federal reps to rectify this albatros. Only a few repsond, then whine when we get 'rectalfied' instead of rectified. Those of us who have tried hard to acheive fairness deserve at least a cork to protect our backsides!

Geeeeeeeeeeeez! Please excuse the harshness of exposing some of the reality here.

RT

I tend to be more positive about human nature.I am not as infomed as some of you may be.if what you say is true we have very little hope if we can not work together.I think Ill keep my positive aditude.I think it goes farther than the alternitive.

It all depends what side of the state you live. Being from the west side I can see the valid compaint but from the east side we could'nt do any good with out there help.
Duck In The Fog. (switch the "D" and the
"F" around.) a.k.a. Jim Marquis

Superfly,
Dont want to rock the boat, but, be careful what you say about this river. I do disagree with the indians having control over the river flows. (I really doubt that they do this) What sport anglers on this river fail to realize is that if it was not for the indians on this river the sport fisherman would not have anything to fish for. The run of Kings on this river is the product of a hatchery that is controlled by the indians. Who gave you the poop that the natives were doing this? I spend alot of time on this river and talk with both the indians and the sportfisherman and this is the first i have heard of it.

[ 08-08-2001: Message edited by: Keta ]

Keta, you are right on about the 'backroom deal' scenario. And I have heard that it involves more than just the Columbia Tribal Commission backing off a potential lawsuit over lack of salmon recovery effort - it also includes dropping the 'big hammer threat' bluff factor, by them backing off threatened lawsuits to force the removal of some dams on the Columbia system! Where I believe the Feds are lacking in smarts and nads is that they should know that the Tribes don't really want the dams taken down either - because they need a LOT of electricity to run their profitable gambling casinos, and more importantly they likely would lose the opportunity to gain a huge Gov. payoff if the wild fish go extinct despite them winning such a threatened suit to remove dams; leaving their nets as the then main culprit if the wild fish still go extinct. We need much better representation in Washington D.C. to help get us sportfishers back our lawful fishing rights to half of the harvestable fish! But then again, most of those cheeseheads in Washington D.C. don't fish much, so no skin off their browned noses, eh?. ... Also very notable here is the Tribal attitude: if the Feds give them 6 1/2 times the allocation of Columbia springers than non-Indians instead of the lawful equal split, they will sign an agreement to drop lawsuits. This shows just how much they care about salmon recovery - including the wild fish! Why else would they go along with an agreement to allow non-Indians 2% ESA impact on the Col. springers only if they could up their impact to 13% from last year's 8% - pushing the total wild springer kill ESA impact up from last year's 9% (8 + 1 for us) to this year's large 15% nate kill. Are we seeing a pattern of tell tale Tribal bottom lines here yet? YES!

fishinfreak, I brought up the same point a while back on the other board, about the same river.
Boy did I get a ton of backlash over that one. Yeah i like to stir it up now and then.
I agree. Granted they didn't spend the money to build the hatchery(maybe they did, I don't have a clue).
But if they quit running that hatchery, you know the state wouldn't step in and take over. They'd just let the run die out.
BTW, anyone have any reports on this river??

pay off? where do i get in line? joe, have fun fishing with biggie this year.

I call BullShiit!!!!!Sure they operate this Hatchery....in direct partnership with the state
If the Indians ran this show on their own we'd all be srewed ( more than we already are )
Where are the Steelhead!!!!!!!
10 Freaking Years and still no season?????
The Tribe netted this run to almost extinction(sure with some help from sportsman)
I've been in contact with the state biologist for a few years and basicly it comes down to this .....the Tribe doesn't care if they can't catch steelhead because they get compensated for their loss

they were so concerned about the here and now and all the fish they could catch,that they lost sight about their future and now we all suffer
don't get me started on this one....
nothing they do surprises me ,they seam to be about as organized as a soup sandwich .........Os

Fishin freak, If you spend so much time on this river then someone like your self should notice were the river is at on tuesday and were it is at on friday. All you have to do is go to the usgs river flows site and start making your comparisons. It will all add up for you then.
Also I saw a copy of the contract from an individual who use to be on the nisqually river council.
Peace Superfly

osprey, it doesn't matter who runs the hatchery, the sportsman will always be screwed. Keep in mind if the natives didn't
help run some of the hatcheries then they would be closed down. The state has already admitted that the hatchery programs were detrimental to the native fish stock. The duck

Okay, before we all get too far into bashing the tribes (again), let's get some of the facts straight. The flows in the Nisqually River are controlled by the Nisqually River Hydropower Project (Alder Dam and La Grande Dam). This project is owned and operated by Tacoma City Light. There is another much smaller project downstream (Yelm) that is owned by the City of Centralia. The tribes are neither owners, operators, or licensees for these projects. As such, they do not control the flow of the Nisqually River.

Now, I'm not saying that Tacoma City Light doesn't control the flow of the river to maximize the tribal catch. However, if they did, it would be highly unusual. In fact, it's probably outside their operating license to do so. My guess is that they couldn't care less about how and when the tribes set their nets. Their primary interest is generating electricity for their ratepayers and customers.

But I'm sure the tribes know this and are more than happy to set their nets according to Tacoma's generation schedules. More than likely, the tribes are responding to Tacoma's generation schedule, not the other way around. In this case the tail does not wag the dog.

Bash the tribes if you must because they are using gill nets, but let's not accuse them of manipulating river flows for their own purposes. They are not. Tacoma City Light is doing that. And last I knew, Tacoma City Light was run by a bunch of non-Indians that look quite a bit like you and me.

Desertdrifter has it right. Perhaps we should spend more time trying to work with the tribes on issues of mutual concern rather than continuing to bash what should be a powerful ally for the fish, the fishing, and the fishery.

Hey I am not about bashing the tribes, lets just try and be fair. Like keep the water the same for everyone, why should anyone get to be able to control the river for there own interest? We should all be for the interest of the fish, not ourselves or our particular user group.
And Tater, Don't take this personally, It is all about what's fair, not one group having the advantage over the other. I am sorry if you take it that way, but if they ran the river like you guys run yours there would be so many fish in there it would not matter how the river flows were controlled. If you don't want me and My friends to come fish with you, I am sorry!! but to me it is about what is best for the resource and what is fair to all involved. Not just one particular group. Why don't you give me a call at home oe e-mail me.
Peace Superfly

Superfly,
Ok, so how do the sportsmen petition to control the flow also? This is BS, I did spend Sunday on the river. Decided to take a look downriver at how many nets the indians had at the mouth. Wholly **it, it would take a fish with ESP to navigate its way thru all of them. One net in particular really pissed me off. It was stretched darn near from one side of the river to the other.
Maybe, at best, 25 feet to pass on one side.
I Do agree that it needs to be fair, if they can increase the flow then we should be able to as well. Thanks for the info...

I heard this morning on the way to work on KIRO that the Yakima Indians have filed to control the Yakima river dam system. Looks like their strategy is going to be played out throughout the state. Next thing you know the tribes will want to start damming every river in the state to further tip the balance in their favor. I personally believe the tribes should be taken back to court on the grounds they are getting more than half the fish catch.