LittleZoZo and I have tossed a couple emails back and forth since his misreading of my post in the snagging thread. My last response to him is something that I feel that I might as well offer up to the board and take my lumps. Here it goes:

***

What it comes down to for many of us family men is putting food on the table. Sadly, my folks went through a difficult time financially when I was growing up so we relied on my father to bring home the bacon. I wish it was bacon, but it was fish. Salmon and steelhead, three to four meals a week. Baked, steaked, broiled, barbecued, you name it. And I got SICK OF IT. To this day it's just not what it should be.

Now I catch it to feed to my wife and kids. She doesn't like cooking it so it's up to me to prepare it without gagging. Don't get me wrong, though. It's good eating, but I still have that twitch in my belly from those days of fish.

I don't get many opportunities to fish, and my tackle is far from the Loomis/Lamiglas groups. So, when I do go fishing for salmon I'm going for food. While I haven't ever lined fish (knowingly), when the fish are thick and lockjawed and that bump I feel turns out to be something other than their mouth, I'm not against keeping the fish. The tackle I use is specifically for a mouth-take, but if something else presents itself and it means feeding my children then so be it.

So no, we really aren't too far away from each other. This year is the first year that I've really gotten any salmon fishing in since probably 10 years ago. I'm a horrible cast with a levelwind but the coastal creek I fished this year didn't require much casting. Actually, the Wind River cleanup was my first salmon fishing in a long time, and Ramstrong probably feared for his life every time I casted. Maybe if things get better (like maybe my position in the government getting graded where it's supposed to be, which would be a roughly 25-40% salary increase) I'll be able to fish more and become more successful. Until then, I take what I can get.

When money's tight, it's all about putting food on the table. We know this.

David

***

Okay, I've put on my flame-retardant waders. Sling it at me. Tell me I'm wrong. By the letter of the law I am, and if I was ever caught I'd (somehow) pay the fine. But damnit, my kids need food. And if I'm running out of time in the day and can't get them to bite it's gonna be hard for me to let that 10-20 lbs of FOOD go back in the water.

David,

Just read your post............WOW..

The sportsman in me tells me your are wrong, the parent in me thinks back to when my kids were small and we ate lots of beans and rice. Fortunately for us, times are better now, if they wernt, I can not sit here in my heated house, typing on this keyboard connected to my fairley new 1.5Ghz dell computer, with a full freezer and condem you. I think I might like to, but I can not. If my fellow fishers wish to condem me also, so be it, I will take my lumps...
As my final parting words, I would like to say that I condem you for one reason and admire you for two reasons:
1. Shame on you for violating societies rules, for taking fish that I migh catch and taking them in an unsportsman like manner. The fish you catch might be my third or forth for the day and you prevented me from having a great as opposed to a good day. Shame on you for potentially damagening our fish runs. As a sportsman, It is difficult to accept what you have done.

1.A. I admire you for being willing to take a non popular stand in public, bearing all, and publiclicly willing to take your lumps on this public forum. ( Let your kids read this... Kids... Your Dad is a stand up guy, and you should be proud of his strength as a man.)

2. Willing to do what is necessary to take care of your family, even if it means taking potential beating (verbal, financial should you get pinched.)

Who among us, if faced with the same situation would do differant? And if so, which one of us would be willing to bear our sole on such a public forum.

David, from my perspective, you are a stand up guy, you are in the wrong, but you are a stand up guy. ... Tell you what.. I will take you fishing sometime to try to up your skill level. Hopefully, some other good people on this board will do the same (.. superfly, keith, james, steve H, shane, osprey, parker, FM , BOE, (any others), you know who you are) and if the next time you absolutely need a fish and it's foul hooked, let thisd one go and call me and I will contribute from my freezer. One dad fisherman/sportsman to another............

[ 11-30-2001: Message edited by: Fishbait ]

Sad to hear of your financial plight, distaste for salmon, and lack of fishing ethics Dave. Seems you are out to make fish distasteful to your children as your father did to you. And in an illegal manner; using the needy food on the table bullsh!t excuse. How much have you spent on fishing rods, reels, tackle, bait, license, gas, etc., etc. to go keep snagged fish to eat?!? Those heavy expenses could put a lot of food and more eating variety on your table dude.

Man,if your kids need food that bad there a lot cheaper ways to provide it than sportfishing.
Definetly not cost effective.
Why do I get the feeling you are putting us on?

honesty is a great quality to have...thanks for sharing!!!

Been there...can't find harm or shame in taking care of one's family.

Gooose

I agree that it takes alot to go against the grain here, but what a crappy excuse!

Add up the cost of everything you need for fishing, plus gas and time. This amount is what you are robbing from your children if you must snag for food.

If you have a Govt. job, you are doing better than most. At least you get a paycheck 52 weeks a year.

Holy cow Dave Jackson, my post on the snagging thread must have hit home. Like I said, you pick your battles.

I for one am not going to confront anyone who has the mindset to snag his dinner. My ex-brother-in-law from way up the Washougal was very unfortunate in his childhood. They did whatever they had to do to feed the family. It unfortunatly carried over to his adult life where he was busted for poaching a deer with his headlights. You think I'm going to confront that guy in the back woods with a gun in his hand in the dark to explain the illegality of the situation? No thankyouverymuch, I have a wife and 3 kids that need me.

We all break the law. We speed with the car, we roll through stop signs or even run red lights, we probably drive home after having a few too many pop's at the bar or we fire up a doob in the privacy of our own home (or wherever). Where does snagging a fish fall into that? Certainly not life threatening to me. Yes the resource must be protected, but in reality we sportfisherman are the collective drops of WD 40 in the Columbia compared to habitat degredation, indescriminate commercial harvest and el nino. Sure we do our thing to help, but every snagger that is out there is still out there. The sportsman damn well better abide by the rules, but it is for the police to deal with. Are you going to call the cops on your buddy because you know he's smoking pot and you don't agree with it? I hope to hell not. If my buddy is snagging to feed his kids, I wish him tight lines, and move downstream. I also refuse his invitations to the river though.

OK Dave... You have gone this far...

1. 1o yrs since you have fished much?
2. What kind of gear?
3. Govt Job? .... 52 paycheck per year... care to bear all and tell us if it's 18, 23 34 or 56K per year. Yes, unfornately it does matter to those of us that face layoffs and market conditions each day.

This is not an easy answer. As we move forward, I will keep in mind that this thread was started bu Dave.... if conditions were switched and i was in his place.........the question is ... would I have the balls to do what he did and step up to this forum and fess up..........would you?

I did not post this looking for pity. My pride is too strong to do such things. Instead, I did this to put out another aspect of the snagging debate.

The last rod and reel that I bought was the $30 setup that was mostly birthday money for my SON. My levelwind rod and reel are about 8 years old and they were a Christmas gift. My spinning rod and reel were also gifts from about 15-20 years ago. My vest was a gift from my wife 4 years ago. Heck, even my rock-pulling fishing line was Spider Wire my dad bought and didn't like so I got it.

My license and tags were purchased with a (follow the trend) gift card. For the three trips that I've made to fish in Washington (first a cleanup on the Wind, second a fishless trip with Scrog at Hoodsport, and third a trip to the Kalama) was with daily permits out of my pocket.

My two Oregon fall salmon trips were carpooling with my father to Big Creek where we brought home near limits. Thankfully I have food in my freezer that my family enjoys (they more than me, but they eat a lot of foods I don't so there ya go).

Luckily we aren't at a point where fish is needed for existance; it's only a luxurious addition to the menu.

While I know that there are obviously better deals out there on ramen, pasta, beans, etc (and trust me, we're damned good at it), I also get more out of fishing than just the meat.

It is my religion. My place where I reconnect with Earth. Fishing is in my blood. It's hard to explain to a woman from SoCal, so I don't.

Fishing can be done without the Loomis, without the Lamiglas, without the Curado, Owner, $4 lures, $20 lines, and $5000+ boats. I'm doing it. I'm not poor, but when it comes to bringing home food for the family I have a hard time letting it swim away simply because it swam into my line.

I fish to catch fish legally. If I'm not successful that way and one runs into my offering from the side...I'm probably going to keep it.

I'm not putting any of you on by saying this stuff. I can understand why you would suspect such with my history of posting, but since I don't get out much sometimes I feel that it is all I can offer.

I too admire your honesty David but I find your logic flawed. Are you having that much trouble providing for your family? There are ways to do that without breaking the law. If I were having troubles like that I would sell as many of my luxury items like rods, reels or whatever to get the necessary item, I've done this very thing. Sure salmon are plentiful this year and a few snagged fish are not going to hurt the run but think a minute, What if everyone who was having trouble like you are resorted to an ilegal activity such as this? Maybe someone who hasn't caught a fish in awhile could justify it too! I think you used poor judgenment and took the easy way and maybe you want us to help you ease your guilty conscience. I can't do it...sorry it just doesn't wash.
I relate to the pay cuts you talk about because I had to do it too recently but I can still put food on the table without doing something illegal.
Good luck

Fishbait:

Up until this year I was a trout angler, and that's it. Go out, catch a few 10" trout, and enjoy the surroundings. It was only when I started reading these boards that I got the nerve to give it a try again.

Again? Yeah, I tried it as a teen and wasn't very good at it. Caught 1 spawned steelhead and four springers on the Willamette. Figure dozens of trips with Dad into the mix and you'll see why I'd get disappointed. Trout are easy.

In March I was one of the first casualties of the dot com that I worked for. Somehow someone was looking over me and after filling out a crapload of paperwork in the application (essay questions, anyone?) I was able to get a job paying less than $35K a year. My wife stays home with the kids because if you take her earnings and subtract what daycare would be, then subtract taxes...it's not worth it. That and we had our kids for US, and not to be farmed out. Our decision, I know.

I forgot to mention BOE on a fishing trip this year, but I haven't gone so low that shad are a comprehendable food fish.

There, I've laid it out there for you just short of putting out my income and outgo like I was with a debt councellor. Trust me, I am evergrateful that I have a job in these times.

Oh, and check out www.fedworld.gov and go to the JOBS section. Amazing the number of jobs out there if you don't mind filling out a crapload of paperwork to apply for them.

I've never had to or wanted to snag fish. I've never kept an incidently foulhooked fish. All of you should know from my past posts on snagging that I detest snaggers...but if it came down to the opportunity to provide food for my family if I had one....well I just don't know. I do know when our family was really poor....four kids on my dads beginning teachers salary....we ate lots of venison all year. Didn't question it even when I was of an age to realize what was going on. When I was in college my roomie had a trap line...ate lot's of wierd stew. Duck, gooose, grouse even coot was on the menu all week long. Bunch of coho, dogs and a few steelies also. Criticism is easy from on high...understanding from our assumed lofty ethical positions seems more difficult.

Gooose

Well guys, That little post that Dave Jackson put up was word for word the exact same E-mail he sent me. I have this to say....... I have never, ever illegally taken a fish in the name of keeping food on the table for my family. I have however, poached countless deer, elk, Antelope, pheasant, turkey, and various other animals of a more domestic nature in the name of feeding my family. Those days are long gone now, in fact, I gave up hunting a few years ago..... BECAUSE I HATED IT!!!!!! I didn't hunt for pleasure, or for the thrill of the chase or any of that ****.... I did it because we literally had NO FOOD IN THE HOUSE!!!! I was living in Montana at the time, and there was no work to speak of at all. If I didn't poach, we didn't eat! Simple as that! Now, I make good money, I have a good job, and I have plenty to eat, but I would string a gilnet across the river and net an entire run into extinction if it would mean the difference between food and hunger for my babies. Yeah, It's real easy to come down on a guy for being honest, because true honesty rarely, if ever has a defense, nor should it need one. Here's a guy who went out on a limb (much like I did with the fish lining thing) and you guys are ready to tear him apart. I have news for you: Not all of us were raised with the idea in mind that hunting and fishing was sport. We were raised to see fish and wildlife as a food source. We went out hunting, not to comune with nature, but with a spot light and a .22, so that we could kill as many deer in an evening as we could put into the old man's pick up.... Sometimes we'd get lucky and get a bear, then we could sell the gall bladders and paws to the Vietnamese up in Seattle for a pretty penny.... We'd make the rest into sausage and I would have to eat those horrible bear sausage sandwiches for the next six months. Anyway, all of that stuff is about twenty years in the past, and I'm pretty sure that the statute of limitations has run out by now....... Dave, I dont keep snagged fish (Just lined ones), but I admire your honesty and the manliness you have shown by having the balls to stand up and express a little honesty.... I would hope to see a few of the rest of you guys do the same. Give this guy a break.

Please understand that I'm not condoning the abuse of a resource. People who know me know this of me. I'm just stating that for the five salmon trips I was able to go on this year that when I landed a couple fish out of five that weren't mouth shots that I kept them.

It's food. A couple fish out of a run of 60,000 on this creek. Two fish that wouldn't be pitchforked into a truck at pennies per fish for cat food. Two fish that gave my family about 8 meals each.

It's ethically wrong, but it's also something that I could live with to bring home food.

I just recently went back to work after being unemployed for 4 months, I took a pretty big pay cut from what I'm used to and I am supporting myself my wife and 2 kids, I took on various odd jobs to get me by and now my wife is also working, and raising a 19 mon. old and a 3 month old. Things have been tight to say the least but I have not considered nor will I consider keeping a snagged fish, as a matter of fact, last Tue. was the 1st fishing trip I've made since before losing my previous job, foul hooked an ok looking silver on the sky and didn't even cross my mind to keep it. I respect the fish and the resource to much to stoop to this.
I have to ask, if your job is not paying the bills why not give up those fishing, I mean snagging, days and find something better. I don't buy lame ass excuses to snag.

WOW. How does one reply to that?? I know that we all know it is wrong to keep illegally hooked fish, and that yeah, if Dave were to cut out the fishing trips he would have a few more bucks to put food on the table. I am not going to condone the behavior; but how many of us remember the depression? The REAL depression? I have heard the stories from my Grandfather. NOTHING was sacred shy of putting food on the table. Was Dave in this position? No, not if he had a gov't job. But Uncle Sam is not known for overpaying. All I can say is that it takes big balls to put this on a BB where he knows darn well he is going to take some nukes, and they are well deserved. Dave, if you need some fish to feed you family, I'll empty my freezer out for ya: AFTER you tell me what your GS level is. I'm a gov't puke too, so let's let that go at that. You want to catch a few, shoot me an e-mail off line, like one of the guys said way up top, I have a boat, and I'll take you. You can take home all legal caught fish.

Fish4Steel:

Eight.

Now I'm going to bed.

I visit here, more than posting and I have come away with good things to use in the sport of fishing. Lately I have come away from this board with less and less. Most of what I read here revolves around how to bring out the worst in people rather than the best. Threads that start out interestingly enough tend to degrade into mud slinging and put-downs for those that are brave enough to state an opinion. One that comes to mind is the Snagging Thread started by KSR. That thread ended ugly and now this one seems headed that way. Those that slung the mud the hardest are now going to recieve it back two-fold or so it seems in my Opinion.

It seems that some are all to eager to condem those that have differing morales or values rather than forgive and teach them new ones. Labeling each other as Crackers and Doughballs Snaggers Low-Lifes or whatever else the mind conjures up, and then passing it off as innocent Humor seems easy enough. If this is the best that we have to offer as Sports Persons by condeming rather than teaching, then pity the plight of the species we so desperatly try to preserve!

Consider who you are and look at the power we have collectively to change the way salmon and steelhead fishing will be in the future. Will we be making an impact or will we all be here condeming and labeling each other for our lack of moral values and ethics.
Some of us should be using our talents and stature to be hounding people who will make a difference for salmon and steelhead. Instead all I read here is lately is bickering and mudslinging.........Such a pity.
I'm not so sure I like the sounds.
Do You?

Lurking SkaGuy

Noted and Edited. Thank you Ryan.

[ 12-01-2001: Message edited by: SkaGuy ]

amen!!!