Some people like Toyota, some swear by Fords, some don't let their friends drive Chevy's, some will only drive Dodge. This subject isn't any different. I have found over the years it's impossible to add additional quality to a product without adding additional cost. I suspect over time as Vision increases market share[increased production] they will have to increase price to iron out quality problems, and as most suppliers do they will price for maximum sustainable profit.

Flame me again, call me a liar again. I will "pull the same stunt" again.

The reason for not returning the hooks is simple, I did not buy them. I never said I did and that is not the point. My fishing buddy bought them. The point is, I used them, they are an inferior product and I am going to share that experience with this board whether you like it or not!!

So again call in question my integrity. There are people on this board that know me to be truthful to the point of pain with both myself and the people I do care about...

The truth is what the the truth is...and your infantile attempts at altering the truth and making me look like a liar in front of fellow board members will not work, I won't allow that perception to prevail.

I believe I requested that the best, most on-point counter-post on that thread be re-posted.
If this turns in to a bash Stlhdh2o thread I will start it all over again as well.

So let's go...the truth vs. ?? Who will prevail?

I have yet to use the siwash, but have nothing buut good things to say about their other hooks. But what I don't understand is why you would ever start a post like this? Since you are (or were) a QA guy, then you'd know aboout a manufacturing process. I do assume you know they are a new company. Of course it's a trial and error scenerio when you're talking about new products. It takes time to get it right, as GMAn saiid in his post. To me, it seems llike there must be more. Iif there was a post touting the high quality of Vision Siwash, then I can understand a response. But to blatantly start a thread to tell what junk they are and to use Gami's is curious (especiially when you know they'l refund your $$, or shall I say your buddy's $$). They can't fix a problem unless they get feedback, but to try and discredit them online is a bit "infantile". I dislike quite a few products out there, but I don't go on a rampage and start threads about it. I show it by not buying it (or I'l but my .02 in when someone says they're perfect). You could've had a bad batch. I've experienced same thing on Siwashes over the years with aboout EVERY hook mnufacturer I used. Uusually iit was eitheer 1. a bad batch or 2. a desiign flaw that needed to be corrected. I've lost many a fish over the years for many different reasons. So to put your scenerio up is a bit lame. Stuff happens, malfunctions happen, it's a part of the game. The key is to go to Joe and get your refund and quit flaming. I'm afraid to tell you through all your exquisiite speaking, all you did was flam, flame, and flame. Have stock iin Gami? Gami pro staffer? Jjust seems odd to me. Hhey, maybe I should start a whitewaterign thread on Outcast? Hmmmmm, may just have to do that. I have tons of products over the years that were junk, I could fill up one whole page of the forum list, may just have to go do that.

Let's continue the story time, shall we?

Let's pretend that you were SO PUT OFF by the quality of these hooks that, instead of doing your best to discredit the company in public you instead contacted them through their handsome website and let them know of their product failure, as you had heard such wonderful things about the hooks and as you are from a QA background you know that an upstart company would want to know of these manufacturing problems.

Let's pretend that they emailed you back! Let's pretend that when they emailed you back they said "Darn, we really do apologize for the bad batch of hooks that you received and would like to set it straight with you. How about if you send us the package of hooks, and we'll credit you back FULL PRICE PLUS POSTAGE for your problems and throw in a fresh batch of hooks to boot? And please, let us know if you have any future problems with the product because WE WANT TO KNOW!"

Why, if that happened to me then I would be most impressed with this company! I would think "Gee, these guys really do want to make a good product and are doing their darnedest to make things right for me. I should go post something positive about them on the fishing boards, because a stand-up company like that should be recognized and there really aren't that many stand-up companies out there anymore." -The End. Please put your carpets in the carpet box and take your empty milk cups and put them on the trays.

I'm a hook whore. I'll use whatever I get my hands on, and currently I have Vision, Owner, and even some Eagle Claws in my vest. All have performed well, and I have no complaints. If I ever DID get a bad product I would first start with the shop where bought them, and likely also contact the manufacturer. I've done that in the past and rarely do I ever hear from the manufacturer at all, let alone have them extend such a generous offer. I would *never* go straight to the World At Large and scream at the top of my lungs that their product sucks until I tried to contact the company, but as we are well aware different people have different morals.

It is unfortunate that you had a bad batch of hooks. It is also unfortunate that you chose to take what I consider to be the wrong path to resolution TWICE now. The first time I can credit to a bad spur-of-the-moment decision. The second time, to me, just seems..."infantile".

DJ .....you silver tougue devil

stlhdh2o now see .......why couldn't you have done it the right way ....the first time...Os

DJ...That was beautiful, man...sniff...

Aunty:

Careful, the wife would be mighty confused seeing lipstick on my collar after visiting a website where a bunch of guys hang out.

Os:

I got the better of the genes. You knew that.

Kurt:

Sorry dude, still can't have my beer.

The "right" way...

Show me again in my original post where I "flamed" them.

Please note: I have no vested interest in any company that manufactures hooks, or gear of any kind. I am an average fishing Joe who wishes to share his experiences with others, as so many have given me advice which has furthered my abilities to catch fish.

How much money is your time worth? I don't care how excellent a companies customer service is they cannot replace my time, that is my most valuable asset. The intention of this post is to share information with other fishermen, who actually pay money for their hooks, to be armed with all of the necessary information to make a sound decision.

Here's what has been established:

There are QA issues with the Siwash hooks. They have an excellent return policy and strive to make the Vision hooks buying experience a positive one.

I have not tried their other products and, after my first impression, am not likely to risk my limited fishing dollars on a question mark.

How could this possibly be a more fair representation of what happened?

Well said DJ, AuntyM keep up the good work

Fishhead5

Still can't show me where this post is a flame but keep trying....

Sorry about that DJ. We're gathering a large bag of broken siwash bits. Once we get enough of them, we'll send you the Vision Bag-O-Bits as your compensation!

Oh yeah, and I'll toss in the *one* failed worm I found in someone's garbage can. Had to look all over that that little beastie!

Actually, I just came up with a new idea for a Vision promo. Vision will get a white canvas bag and fill it with a thousand random Vision Hooks of various shapes, styles, and sizes (so we're not biased). Next time someone whines about Visions not being "sharp", we'll have them stick their hand in the bag and grab some hooks. A few good shakes of the bag and VOILA! Instant "we state our case that our hooks are as sharp as the competition."

I'm bringing the Bag-O-Vision to F4. I will be seeking out any unbelievers.

I posted this on another and figured I'd post it here too!!

Heard about all this bull**** I can stand!!! If you folks have a problem with a product tell them about it.But through an email or telephone!!! this blah blah **** I been hearing on here is just that.. blah blah ****...

Most of the folks on this BB non of us really know how much they fish so how do we know if there a wood snaging cracker jack...

You cant take a hook snag it in rocks or wood with 30# line and pull like hell and expect it to stay sharp or not bend or break!!!

If you don't like the product don't come in here and start bashin the people of the product. simply STOP buying it...

As for me I go through 1000 or so hooks a year and I will stay with Vision not only for the cost but I havent had any problems with them for some time now..and I like the people from Vision..

Thanks Joe, Justin and the rest of the Vision crew!!!

I wouldn't let some of these lame brain cracker jacks get under my skin!!!

awwwww Timber feels better now

This won't be easy, but I'm going to try and fish out your comments from mine so that I can respond to them:

"I phrased this in the form of a question intentionally. Because I am questioning the quality of the product, hoping to solicit opinions from fishermen (not salesmen) who have had experience, any experience with the product. To indicate that my mind was not yet made up. I was hoping people would tell me I am wrong and why. Unfortunately the response I received went deeper than that, didn't it?? I did not call the company Shyte nor any of the individuals, I did question their motives, which is appropriate given their inherent bias toward the company.

If we had realized that you were not, in fact, asking a rhetorical question then we would have ended this whole diatribe early and told you that this whole thing was your imagination, and that Vision products aren't "totally worthless".

Bad luck, **it happens...yes...Am I not entitled to an opinion?? Am I not entitled to advise other fishermen of a bad experience?? Isn't this what a BB is all about??

Certainly you are entitled to an option. However, with your own admission that Gammi's have problems (arguably just like Vision does) and you suggest them over Vision it brought your credibility to question. If they both have problems, then why suggest either? Buy Owner, VMC, or whatever.

My point here is that we all need to consider bias in this equation. I have none, I use what is available to me.
The respondents to my thread were for the most part people with a vested interest in the company. This is a position of inherent bias and it is in their best interest to make me look like a total idiot so that no one takes my post seriously. I will not allow this happen. I appreciate their efforts to rectify the situation and have said so repeatedly, I am just not interested in receiving more potentially faulty hooks, period.

To my knowledge there are three "employees" of Vision that post here: Joe, Rock n Roe, and parker. The rest have no vested interest, other than they use a bunch of the hooks that you question and have no problems whatsoever.

Not looking for blood at all. In fact I challenge you to refute this statement as anything other than "true"

Certainly they don't want bad press. That's why they tried to turn it around to good press by offering to take care of the situation. I just felt like you were suggesting that the negative publicity was a tool.

What you are calling "flames" I am calling my opinion. I did not use superlatives, hyperbole or exageration to express that opinion so I take issue with your characterization of my post as a "flame"...

And your opinion was a flame, in my opinion. Aren't opinions fun?

Is it possible that your thoughts may have been 'influenced' by working with such a great group of guys? I think its rather obvious that they have, given the veracity with which you are willing to defend them against "ninnies" like myself...If I were such a ninny you could just let my ignorance speak for itself...not the case though is it?

Sure it's possible, but you are assuming that they weren't a pain in the ass to work with and that I'm not capable of having an opinion of a product outside of my working relationships.

What I saw in your post and subsequent rebuttals was someone who dissed an entire product line based upon a bad batch of hooks, and a product line backed by a group of stand-up guys who back the product 100%. While I don't go through the thousands of hooks that others have claimed, I can tell you that their hooks have worked great for me. Do they have QA problems? Quite possibly. But knowing that they stand behind their product 110% tells me that they are a good COMPANY. And that right there is what I like about them.

I'm done with this thread, and this topic.

[EDIT] Damn, forgot to preview. Missed one stinking carriage return.

Thanks for reminding me that I suck. :p

This has been quite a post. One thing I have gotten out of this one....I am going to be buying myself some Vision hooks. With pride in their products and customer service like that, I can't go wrong.

Thanks for some fine closing thoughts Theron, good luck with them.