Pretty tired of listening to people avoid taking responsibility for their fishing actions...Something posted on the EF bait ban thread got to me a little so I wanted to post a new thread on the subject....This is meant generally and has nothing to do with the bait ban on the EF Lewis.

Is the use of bait the true reason for the decline of Native steelhead? No. Is there a TRUE reason...of course not, so saying that we should not enact a protective measure based on this reasoning is ludicrous.

Is there a single reason for the decline of Native steelhead? Of course not, the problem is extremely complex and beyond answering by the best scientific minds in the state and country. We are certainly able to do identify contributing factors and minimize the risks associated with each.

Now ask yourself if the use of bait contributes to the decline of Native steelhead. Ever try to sneak some eggs through a hole past a bazillion smolts? Ever hook one? Ever shake it off and keep fishing? Ever hook another?

Which is why it is ironic for the same people who say they care about Native fish to complain about even the suggestion of a bait ban. I am not necessarily for or against the use of bait, I'd just once like to hear people who consistently fish with bait admit that they kill smolts. I have and, especially while fishing for summer runs, seldom use it anymore. I also catch my share of fish..

All we can do is take responsibility for our own actions. Consider the impact of a bait ban on your fishing style. Maybe you rely on bait too much and could stand to learn some new tricks...Maybe you could be even more successful foregoing bait entirely, I am positive that at least in certain situations this is true.

Please note all...the lack of flames directed towards individuals. If you want to flame something here, flame the ideas not the individuals who present them.

Thanks for letting me express my opinion...

Good topic
The problem with the smolt is that they do not bite on just bait. Whether they bite on bait more then artificial lures I do not know. I do not use bait that much because I do not like the taste of fish and do not kill steelhead just for the eggs. I kill somewhere in the neighborhood of 4-6 fish a year for family and friends who like fish. If they are hens then I cure the eggs and use them. I am no bait expert but I catch far more steelhead on corkies, yarn and shrimp oil then I do eggs. On the other hand I probably clock in 10 times more hours on corkies then eggs.

Anyway my point is allot of steelhead smelt are killed with artificial lures also.

Once new a guy that used to go up on the Snoqualmie River where Tokul creek dumps in right at the hatchery. He and another guy would come back and say how they each caught 50 trout each in a matter of about 3 hours. Now you know as well as I do that these were steelhead smelt but I could not convince him of that. He did not use eggs, all his 4-inch trout/smelt were taken on little spinners.

I think it boils down in trying to educate those that are willing to listen. Unfortunately once people start catching fish often times they are unwilling to listen. Once he found out that those were smelt he should not have gone back to the Snoqualmie and fished more, unfortunately he did.

This is a good topic...

This is what I've seen as far as studies go:

Bait has a negligible effect on mortality for adults, either summer or winter runs.

It has a more significant effect on downstream kelts, which are feeding somewhat aggressively after spawning.

It has a very high mortality on smolts that are caught and released.

Based on the above, I wouldn't support a general bait ban, but I'd support one in specific places at specific times so as to remove some of the negative impacts on kelts and smolts. For example...

A bait ban in December wouldn't make much sense. There are no smolts in the river at the time (or very few), and most summer runs have already headed back out if they've survived spawning. Also, most rivers don't have native populations of summer runs, so I wouldn't be nearly as worried about them if they were hatchery fish. If it was a river with native summer runs in it and they were present in significant numbers in December I'd be able to reassess the December ban. In almost no cases would it make sense in February, though by March there are downstream native winter runs that may be affected. I'd also like to see the best possible success rate on catchig and removing hatchery fish from the system so they don't spawn in the river.

In the summer when greater numbers of smolts are present, I could be convinced to not fish bait. I can also support not opening rivers to "trout" fishing when the trout that are actually there are smolts. Few of our rivers support fishable trout populations, anyway, except for a few good sea run or dolly runs, and those fish will eat anything, so bait doesn't really help you out much.

There are significant issues, though, that are definitely important to consider.

What is the difference between mortality from bait and mortality from artificials? There is a difference, but there is mortality from both.

Is that difference worth the trouble? Is the loss of fishing opportunity for some who fish bait significant enough to be looked at? Is taking a stand on this issue, and its attendant division that will automatically come up, worth the difference in mortality?

I think this is important to point out, too, that I fish about 70% bait when it is open to do so. These answers are easy to address if you fish exclusively with bait (definitely "no"), or exclusively with flies (definitely "yes"). Most of us don't fish exclusively with anything, so that has an effect on how we'd be coming down on this issue.

It's fair to consider all these issues, and it's fair to make decisions based on personal issues along with the scientific issues. About the only thing I wouldn't agree with is if someone automatically says "no" for the sole reason that they don't want any additional restrictions on their fishing. IMHO, anyway...

Fish on...

Todd.

Todd,

The studies that you are referring to also concluded, I believe, that it was barbed hooks more so than just bait that contributed to higher mortality in both smolts and adults. How many bait fisherman do you believe fish bait with a barbless hook? IMHO probably not that many.

I also agree that a year-round total ban on bait doesn't make complete sense. Like you, I believe it should enacted on a seasonal basis, much like the Snoqualmie river where bait is illegal from June 1 to Dec. 1.

In the other thread, Jumbo expressed an opinion. It may not have been presented in the most tactful way, but it was his opinion none the less. And lo and behold, he was personally attacked by one of the CEO's of Ultimate Egg Cure. (I thought there could only be one Chief Executive Officer of a corporation by the way, maybe I'm mistaken?) Again, IMHO with this kind of devisiveness in the sportfishing community, is it any wonder we're in the position that we are today.

4S,

You're right about the barb vs. not-barbed mortality. I think you and I have talked about this one before at a TU meeting, haven't we?

With the exception of a spinner, I haven't found any less success with barbless hooks so far as hooking and keeping them on. If anything, whatever reduction in success that no barb brings is probably more than made up for by fish being hooked more easily due to the lack of barb...

Here's another one that I didn't make very clear in my first post; hatchery fish spawning unquestionably hurts native fish, and catching native smolts on bait hurts native fish. In a particular river, which is worse? If it's hatchery fish spawning, and bait increases the success rate (definitely does for winter run hatchery fish), is it more important to catch the adults or not catch the smolts? I'd like to see information on questions like that, since most things have effects beyond the immediate intended ones.

Fish on...

Todd.

Have you ever tried explaining politely to someone that they have caught a smolt and not a trout?

Just last Saturday, after hearing that the Sol Duc hatchery had released a half million smolts, I tried to convince a friendly enough fellow at the Bark hole that the fish he had just caught, since it wasn't a cutthroat, was almost certainly a smolt. The fact that its adipose fin was clipped actually had him even more convinced that what he had caught was a hatchery trout!!!

Are most people aware that resident trout are nearly nonexistent in our Western rivers?? That anadromous smolts out-compete most resident trout for food and holding water to the point that their numbers are statistically insignificant is lost on most fisherman I think.

Todd your thoughts on bait bans with meaning are right on the money. Why bother with a bait ban in december when the only fish around are mature adults, the evidence suggests that mortality on these fish is negligible if hooked and released. I would support a statewide ban on bait during the summer fishery or at any time there was a fish population in the river that would be at risk, including late Spring when there are so many downriver fish present.

My experience is that the type of bait ban make a huge difference also. In my experience steelhead smolts and sea run cutts are extremely difficullt to hook with sandshrimp and egg clusters. However with single eggs or worms a person can be deadly!!! For that reason i'd say hardware and fly fuys have more of an impact on smolts cause lets face it almost no one uses worms or single eggs for steelhead. I think the closure of trout fisheries during smolt migrations are the way to go and full trout closures on streams that really have no trout like the East Lewis.

4S,

Before you give Keith too hard a time, let's review what Jumbo said. From that, I gather he's saying that anyone who DOESN'T support a statewide ban on bait has their head in their a$$. Sounds like a pretty good way to get attacked to me. If you're going to make comments like that, then you can pretty much count on being attacked by somebody.

BTW: I think CEO is Chief Eggwhore Officer, and there are many openings within the U.E.C. company.

Sorry Dan,

It wasn't so much that I wanted to give Keith a hard time, as it was an expression of disgust at the constant in-fighting between the different factions. (baitchuckers, flyfishers etc.)

OK H2O! How would you handle the issue of Sardine wrapped Kwikfish? Not likely to kill smolts, and an effective springer bait. Banning all bait would also include these Lures.

What about scent? A bait ban would also include scent.


SA

A bait ban, like any other regulation, should be effective at increasing the likelihood of achieving a specific goal. A general bait ban might do that, but it isn't the least restrictive method for doing so. So after identifying the specific management objective, it is necessary to sort through the alternative measures that would get us there. And considerate folk that we are, we would choose the least restrictive measure. So time and place bait bans will usually make more sense than general ones.

I think angler education can do wonders as well. So talk to guys when you see them hooking tiddlers. Now if they're creeling the little buggers, they may not be receptive to enlightenment. (You might have to try another tactic.) Smolts surely do attack bait, but sometimes they won't leave flies alone, either. If I'm fishing flies with barbs, I'll pinch the barb if I get hits from smolts. If they keep on hitting, I usually move to another pool, as the little buggers are often clustered in certain areas. I figure I'm not likely to hook what I'm after if I can't get my fly past all the smolts.

A good thread. Nice to see folks discussing the issue instead of bashing opinions, ideas, and each other.

Sincerely,

Salmo g.

Hey SA - (I Love saying that, it reminds of Cheech and Chong!!)

I personally have had only marginally better success with Herring wrapped Kwikkies vs. straight kwikkies. I would be willing to sacrifice the three or four extra hookups a year I get with the stinky kwikkies if it meant fewer killed smolt. That said smolt aren't voracious kwikfish biters, I support more of the time and place bans as outlined by Salmo G....

As for scent...gosh, it sure makes one feel more confident when its on ones lure but could we catch fish without it?? I think so...remember I'm not talking general ban here, just Summertime mostly when fishb are at their most aggressive anyway.....

You know it cracks me up, a bunch of people on here saying this and that, but what most all of you don't realize is I spend 35-50 evenings a summer fishing the mid-lower EF and catch more than my share of HATCHERY fish... You might see 5 native summer runs on a good year and you rarely if never catch an unclipped smolt in that section of river, but let me tell you what you do catch.... About 10-30 SQUAWFISH a day, I REALLY WONDER IF THEY'RE TAKING A TOLL ON OUR SMOLT!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Thank God we're down there fishing bait and killing everyone of them Damn SQUAWFISH we catch or that SQUAWFISH rearing pond would be the best place to go and catch them...
So sure let's ban bait, and let the SQUAW's take over, that will solve the problem... Maybe our lazy, lack of knowledge of what's really happening GAME DEPARTMENT would like to come down with me and see the 10's of thousands of SQUAWFISH that inhabit our EF of the Lewis and Washougal. These rivers get so low and warm in the summer that it's just sick.. Perhaps we could work on the watershed, that would help there...
By the way 4Salt, I wasn't trying to be an A$$, it's just when someone jumps out and says something so stupid, I figured I would too..
Keith

Forgive me Keith if I take your position with a grain of salt, if your signature is accurate it sounds as if you have a vested interest in the perpetuation of bait usage.

As for Squawfish, what studies have you seen that would indicate the banning of bait would lead to the Squawfish 'taking over'? I thought not...suppositions of that nature have no bearing on the argument of whether to ban bait here or there at a certain time or not. I think its important to remember that although we all have empirical databases built up in our brains based on our personal experience, drawing any conclusions based on that data is a faulty exercise because of our inherent lack of objectivity.

Here is an example of what I mean...EF Lewis you hammer the squaws with bait during the summer...Hoh, I hammer the native smolts on bait in the summer....as Salmo G. pointed out above selective bait bans make much more sense for reasons just such as this.

The same game department that made this decision for us (sportfishers), also let the gill netters use 4" and 5" gillnets as tangle nets. I have no factual data on the mortality of a steelhead caught in a gill net but I bet it is a whole lot more deadly than bait. I recall in the early 80's my Dad & I started fishing steelhead on the EF in mid Nov.. I believe that old Nate run is gone due to coho gillnets. I agree with Keith. A bait ban is not the answer. A complete trout fishing closure, habitat improvements and a net ban are a better starting point.

I'll tell ya something else about them SQUAWS, I've gutted many of them and see that the larger ones are feeding on the fry not the hatchery sized smolt that are released... But as I mentioned earlier you don't catch many if any native smolt at all in the lewis year around unless your fishing lucia falls and above... That's where the few native smolts that actually make it are rearing and you do have the incidental native smolt catch..

But on to other problems that I've been seeing.. I've already landed 4 HATCHERY summer runs and only one of them didn't have a SEAL mark on it... I've also caught and released some nice Native Winter Steelhead that had net marks around their necks, and SEAL LION MARKS DOWN THERE SIDES and I wonder where they came from.. So TANGLE NET MY A$$, those net's have to have a larger mesh size than the game department is talking about or fish wouldn't run into these problems...
BAN ALL NETS IN THE LOWER COLUMBIA AND KILL ALL SEALS AND SEA LIONS, and you'll see our NATIVE WINTER AND EARLY NATIVE SPRING STEELHEAD MAKE A TURN FOR THE BETTER... As they have in the past couple of years without all the netting pressure and small spring chinook and smelt runs which don't attract as many SEALS AND SEA LIONS!!! But it hasn't been until the last couple of years that we've had surplus runs of spring chinook and smelt runs that attract all the NETTERS and SEA LIONS!!!!
By the way I LOVE BAIT for this reason here:

And, another look at the monster taken on a 1141, with 8lb leader and #2 hook... This pic was taken yesterday, 4-18-02...

Keith

...and I do not want to be flamed but should we really be fishing 1141's when there are big wild steelhead around???

There are 3 possible scenarios being discussed here:
1. Statewide bait ban
2. Selective place and timing of bait bans
3. No bait ban(s)

A statewide bait ban is not supported by available science....some studies say bait causes excess mortalities and some say it doesn't have any significant effect. Proponents of either side can pick their 50% of the available science and argue til they're blue in the face. Simple fact is that the science is inconclusive...so until that issue is definitively decided all decisions will depend on politics.

Selectively applying bait ban as to time and place is a great idea but again there is no science...so again the decisions will be political.

No bait ban at all is also without scientific support....so again our decisions will be made in the political back room.

The issue of barbed versus barbless ...well same thing. Some studies say bad and others say not bad.

So it comes down to this... do we want politicians making decisions without any scientific backing? Personally I'd rather practice and encourage personal ethical choices.
If I was fishing a river and hooking smolts continuosly I would certainly make a switch to an alternative bait or lure.

As for socalled trout fishing its my understanding that nearly all rivers have a minimum size of 12 or 14 inches and require the fish to be finclipped if you kill one? But I do see many people taking stringers of 6 to 8 inch salmonids and calling them trout. On my home rivers these are either steelhead or coho smolts(notice the white stripe on the anal fin?). Problem is that the rules prohibiting this are in place...but guess what its the same old problem...NO ENFORCEMENT OFFICERS! So writing new rules are a zero effect solution.

Whoa haven't said that much in a long time.

I posted a picture of myself holding a chrome bright 16 pound native fish, caught without bait on a Siwash hook...doesn't prove or even support your argument, mine either. In fact posting pictures of yourself holding fish in full spawning color could draw the ire of those finding fishing on redds less than ethical, especially bait.

I think the science is there for selective bait bans and maybe Todd or Smalma could back me with studies or some such thing.

Gooose I agree with you that personal ethics are necessary...unfortunately I feel strongly that further measures are necessary because there will always be people who will always fish with bait (see above).

Boy am I so sorry, but it happened to be that we got two chrome hatchery summer runs out of the same run... But I thought I'd share what we all are in this sport for... THE MONSTER!!! And yes, it was successfully released...
Sparkey, remember a nice thing about fishing from a boat is you can chase fish.... Therefore the lighter gear doesn't hurt so much. This fish was hooked and played for no longer than 10 minutes.
God I love steelhead!!!
Keith