As our Puget Sound rivers are facing another down year for wild winter steelhead, maybe it is time to look into some more unorthodox solutions or drastic measures.

Take for example, our standard June 1 opening for our local rivers...if our rivers are closed under emergency regs in March and April to protect spawning wild steelhead, should we also delay the June 1 opening to allow the system to get totally flushed of these fish???

I can see keeping the upper portions of certain rivers under the standard June 1 opening because how often are wild winter steelhead caught at say the Cable Hole on the Sky on June 1???...not many!!...but how many are caught from Sultan down??...Lots!!

It seems that in the past few years this has become very noticeable as the lower Skykomish has become a boat parade on June 1 of sleds, driftboats...

How about a June 15th opener down low??...or opening the river when the river is determined to be almost void of wild winter steelhead???

Another suggestion...a bait ban in the summer??...How often do countless numbers of wild steelhead smolts and juvenilles inhale a gob of eggs?...and how often do those fish not swim away healthy??...very often!!

I think it is time to not only protect our wild steelhead adults but the juvenilles as well!

This can not only be done with a bait ban in the summer but with a barbless hook restriction as well...if you find the necassity to fish bait, the least you can do is debard the hooks...we all know barbless hooks reduce mortality in trout (which are wild steelhead juvenilles are more or less).


Any thoughts???...any other recomendations!!

Do we know for sure this is going to be a down year for the natives? I thought they didn't start showing up in numbers until February. I could be wrong, but from what I've learned, it'd still be too early to come to any conclusions about the natives this winter. By the time they come up, they won't have to worry about low water like the hatchery fish did.

bait ban? barbless hooks?

First off I have hooked more juvenlles on spinners and spoons.

Sure the little guys peck the crap out of my eggs but I dont set the hook on them and rarely hook them.


Second I have still to see a study on mortality of fish caught and released on barbed hooks verses barbless hooks!

I have killed just as many if not more fish on barbless hooks.

Just because a fish swims away does not mean it will survive!

If you hook a fish in the tongue gill or through the top of its head its a dead fish, barbed or barbless.

Fish hooked in the upper maxilla lower maxilla or the side of there mouth will live regardless of barbed or de barbed hooks used. but die if they are mis-handled.

I dont know if there is a tribal fishery on the sky but if there is maybe that could be adding to no fish in the upper river? If the river was closed do you think they would stop. I am not saying that its all the indians fault but its kind of tough for fish to make it through mazes!

thats if there is a tribal fishery there I dont know.

They net the Snohomish but not the Sky. Putting nets in the Snohomish not only gets the fish for the Sky but also the Snoqualmie. BUt lets not talk about the indians as they get blamed for too many things that they don't do.

Has the summer bait ban done anything positive on the Snoqualmie? This was pushed by certain fly fishing groups under the guise that it protects fish.
So are summer run more plentiful now on the Snoqualmie than on the Sky?
If there were a delay of an opening date than it should be the entire system. We need to get away from the bubble fishery mentality.

January 13th is way too early to give up on the wild fish. Seldom is there a correlation between hatchery and wild run strength anyway. The wild fish seem to be showing up on time on the coast and the PS rivers that I fish but it's just way too early to call. Heck, the hatchery fish still might make an appearance like the "dependable" friend who shows up late to the kegger...the party didn't start because he had the keg!
It is not just the boat and bait fishermen who affect the resource. Fly anglers that battle big hens on their April redds are not doing wild steelhead populations any favors. Why is it that it is always the fly guys that make suggestions to limit other anglers opportunities? If your concern for the wild steelhead runs so deep then lets close it all down!
Sparky, if you wish to kick the beehive by recommending boat and bait bans then have at it but I won't show at that "kegger"

Late openers don't bother me but I gotta disagree on the bait ban/ barbless hook thought. I am a bait fisher almost 100% of the time; year around. I like to think I have a pretty open mind and am always open to new ideas but I also like those ideas backed by science. I have studied the bait issue for years and between what I have researched coupled with my own experiences, I have to say bait is no more harmful than any other method. British columbia has done studies that support this. Sure there is going to be mortality but I am convinced fishing bait doesn't do enough damage to warrant statewide changes as you propose(I assume statewide) In some cases, bait may even be less harmful.

Just my 2 cents worth.

Sparky, I realize that your intention for this thread was for all Puget Sound rivers however your example was targeted at the Skykomish. A lot of people have been working hard to get an opportunity to target the hatchery summer chinook that are returning during the time your concerned about. The chinook fishery opens in the begining of June and rumor has it that WDFW plans to expan the area where these fish (marked ones of course) can be harvested this coming year. Two years ago WDFW didn't open this chinook fishery until mid-July and we missed most of that run. Would you have the Sky closed for hatchery chinook to save any possible hooking mortality on wild steelhead? Any wild adult steelhead still in the system would still be protected by rule and would have to be released. I say open the Skykomish on time and let's continue to educate anglers on effective techniques of C&R.

Hatchery reform is undoubtly going to include limiting the straying of hatchery fish which means more hatchery fish coming back to smaller, more resticted areas, aka bubble selective fisheries.

I am not a fly fisherman, but I did do a lot of guiding over the years. I believe that I was on the water a lot more than the average fishermen ever was, and I have seen a lot of fly fishermen catching fish on the Cowlitz. I known that the Cowlitz is not really the best river in the state for fly fishermen, but what you see their must certainly reflect what happens every where else that they fish.

On the Cowlitz, 90% of the fish that I have seen being caught by the fly fishermen are either small cutthroats or steelhead smolts, and believe me, they catch plenty of both!

The reason for that is pretty simple in my way of thinking; 90% of the fly fishermen that I have seen are always using "little tiny flies" and that's exactly what these little steelhead smolts are feeding on. So who's really doing the harm here, is it the bait guys who fish with quarter size chunks of eggs and hooks one of these little guys every now and then, or is it the guy who's whipping out that little fly that smolts so dearly love to eat?

It just seems to me that the Fly guys are always the first ones to ask for bait bans on our rivers. More and more fishermen now believe that the only reason the fly guys want these bait bans, are because it will give the fly guys a better "opportunity" to "catch fish" in the way that they (fly guys) so dearly love to do. You noticed that I am not using the word "harvest", because lots of bait fishermen are not fishing strictly for the "meat". They just love to catch fish and that's the way and method that they love to catch them by!

It's kind of like the opposing views between the bow hunters and the gun guys; they both prefer their own methods to pursue their sport!

I see a lot more smolts getting hooked by fly fishermen (on the average) on the Cowlitz than I do by the guys that are using bait (bait guys take their share too). Now is that true of every where else, I really can't say! Common sense (there I go again, using that word!) tells us, that smolts eat and feed on a heck of a lot more bugs and insects then they do on either eggs- clusters or sand shrimp. Will you catch them on those baits…you bet you will!

A hook is a hook! The more you hook those little guys, the more you are going to kill them…barb or no barb!


Cowlitzfisherman

I musta missed somethin. How did this turn into a fly fisher v. the other guys?

My philosophy on fishing restrictions are this: Pay now or pay later!! And when you pay later it's always gonna be more expensive!!

I am in favor of anything that will help the fish runs become more robust, however shaky the science. What I mean is, if there is the slightest chance it will increase the number of "wild" and "native" fish we should implement it like yesterday!

You guys really think that hooking mortality on released fish is about equal for bait, artificials and barbed/barbless hooks?

How about goin to barbless circle hooks? I understand that they generally hook in the side or was it the corner of the mouth.

Sincerely,
Roger

I'm sure most of the guys who post regularly on this board and use bait are experienced enough to hook and land fish with as minimal negative impact on the fish as is possible. However, I've seen dozens of novices who let a fish CHOW on shrimp or eggs until that hook is down deep. The final hookset pretty much seals the deal on the fishes fate...native, hatchery, immature...pretty much as indiscrimanent as it gets. Don't see many fish inhale a size 1/0 or 2/0 fly.

Gotta De-Lurk for this one.

There are several good suggestions here and I don't really care if you're a flyfisherman (or have issues with flyfishermen) or not.

There is a valid argument for a bait ban because hungry little smolt *swallow* the bait.

Flies also cause high mortality among smolt, and the primary culprit is the larger x/0 hooks that are used tearing their faces off (especially when barbed). Maybe we should also consider a "maximum size" rule for hooks as well as the barbless restriction?

Just because I'm willing to consider a bait ban in summer doesn't necessarily mean I'm some elitist flyfisher. It's something I've heard prominent members of the DFW and biologists mention as a significant cause of smolt mortality. Makes sense to consider it as runs become more and more depressed.

As for the June 15th opener, if the season ends up being as bad as they're projecting (they do redd surveys in May) then it might be something to consider as well. This isn't fly vs gear, it's just a way to protect those few spawners strong enough to make a repeat trip from needless C&R stress (unless you're *really* hungry ).

I don't like closures or restrictions anymore than the next guy. I'm just a fisherman - not a purist by any stretch of the imagination.

Thanks Spark - Good Topic!!

Brian

Whats the use use "paying" if it does no good! That gives people the false sense that there scientifically unfounded regulations are working while the fish are still disapearing.

Something needs to be done but the state wont do it because it will take away there pocket money!

One of the main problems I have with all closures is they really open it up to poaching!
At least when things are open theres true sports fishermen present to curb poaching.

If you only saw what I have seen you would be crazy with anger at what goes on at "closed" fisheries!

Second I have still to see a study on mortality of fish caught and released on barbed hooks verses barbless hooks!

I have killed just as many if not more fish on barbless hooks.

Just because a fish swims away does not mean it will survive!

If you hook a fish in the tongue gill or through the top of its head its a dead fish, barbed or barbless.

Fish hooked in the upper maxilla lower maxilla or the side of there mouth will live regardless of barbed or de barbed hooks used. but die if they are mis-handled.

So yes I do believe that hooking mortality is about the same. probably even better survival rate for barbed hook fish, seems how in salt water I use bigger hooks than I normally would and commonly skewer shakers throught the top of the head! Not my fault its this states politics.

Did you know it was the commercial and tribal fishermen that pushed for barbless hooks in the first place?

Its amazing how easy people are brainwashed.

Here is what I like about Sparkey's suggestions: They err on the side of protection.

Taking his approach, if he is wrong, the fish don't wind up dead. If some of the other approaches were undertaken and they were wrong, the result is dead fish.

Given that we know there is pressure on the native fish in these specific fisheries why would you be willing risk further loss?

I hear Sparkey saying 'let's err on the side of the fish for once' and I'm inclined to agree with him...

Hopefully Cowlitzfishermans attempts at categorizing those would protect fish before their 'right to fish' as 'elitist fly fishing-types' or 'agents of the state' is transparent.

I've never cast a fly at steelhead in my life and the only thing I've ever 'speyed' is my cat.

Please remember that the majority of smolts killed would be the offspring of wild fish as the hatchery smolts dump and flush out. And mi 101, if you haven't seen the hooking mortality studies then you aren't looking very hard. It seems to me each person wants to be the exception to the rule when it comes to there desired way to fish. And CFM, the itty-bitty flies are usually used by lake and spring creek fisherman. Common sense[like it or not you don't have a monopoly on it] would tell you that the more wild smolts that make it to sea the more wild fish return.

Micro,

With all due respect, where the hell did you get that idea, and what proof can you offer to validate your claim?

Barbless hooks (especially in salt water) are intended to make the release of undersized or non-targeted species less traumatic and harmful to the fish. (when proper release techniques are employed of course) Many comparative studies have been conducted on hooking mortality using barbed/barbless hooks, bait/hardware etc...

It has been proven that a barless hook with no bait has the lowest occurence of mortality. (somewhere in the neighborhood of 3%) A search of this board will reveal many threads where this topic has been discussed in detail, and links to the studies were provided.

Do you think that using barbed hooks in salt water will reduce the amount of shakers "skewered through the head'?

You appear to consider yourself one of the few that haven't been "brainwashed by the state", and that you are aware of some sort of monetary conspiracy perpetrated on sporfishers by the WDFW. On what evidence do you base this opinion?

If you honestly believe that all of the regulations concerning barbed/barbless hooks have no basis in science, WHY then do you think they exist? (please provide SOME sort of tangible evidence, and please, not more of CFM's "common sense" )

Concerning your position, truer words could not have been spoken.

stlhdh2o:

It is becoming ever so obvious that I am a threat to you. Your little deal about calling you names reinforces that deduction. Now you say; "Hopefully Cowlitzfishermans attempts at categorizing those would protect fish before their 'right to fish' as 'elitist fly fishing-types' or 'agents of the state' is transparent." What are you smokin?

That tells me that I must of really have gotten to you, and that you are getting more and more obsessed on attacking, or putting down everyone else's opinion, just because it may be different than yours. That's to bad, because I know that you also care about our resources very much too. Some of you just can't stand to deal with any other person's points of view, and that's also too bad for you also. You need to open up your minds . . . not your mouth!

If we are so terribly wrong, then let us be so. People can, and do make up their own minds you know. I am the kind of guy that doesn't BS around. I tell you how I see it, and you can take it for what it is worth.

I am just thrilled to death that we now have other people who can debate these "hot tpopic" issues, like micropterus 101 has so well done. He's got balls, and on this board, that's what it takes to run against "the flow"! I am sure that he and I, at some time will have our differences, but he has totally earned my respect. He's taken on your groupie like click, and in my view, he's kicked your butts! That must hurt too, but I know that micropterus101 has pretty well figured that one already.

stlhdh2o, you and your buddies need to stop trying to beat up on everyone and anyone who attempts to disagree with your little groups opinions.

Ok, I didn't do any name calling….or did I?

If the birds with feathers keep flocking together, and keep pulling out their feathers, pretty soon those old birds are going to start looking pretty darn naked!

Can you read between those feathers guy?

P.S. Jerry you say; "And CFM, the itty-bitty flies are usually used by lake and spring creek fisherman." In my opinion, that is a bunch unsubstantiated BS! I have personally seen some of your most elite posters "flies", that they claim that they have used on the Cowlitz, and they were pretty darn small hooks. I am not a fly fisherman, as I HAVE STATED, but I have seen what the sizes of some of those hooks are. Get real Jerry!


Cowlitzfisherman

C'mon guys if you can't tell the difference 9 times out of 10 between a smolt nibble and a steelhead chow you don't know how to drift fish.
My fishing partner fishes spinners while I fish bait and I've seen through the years how much more willing a wild fish is to take a spinner than bait a 5 inch smolt will slam a spinner thats almost as big as it is with such aggresiveness ive seen numerous times the hook in their gills, back, eyes etc. So lets not classify this as a bait versus flies or bait versus hardware. If worse comes to worse the best way is to shut them down to all types of fishing. Because no matter what the technique and where in the river you fish your always at the "risk" of accidentaly hooking and killing wild smolts.

Although I try my best never to agree with Sparks, just this once..

Here's a study I dug up. And no, I have nothing better to do at work! http://www.seagrant.sunysb.edu/Fishery/AnglerResource/Techniques/HookingMortality.htm

Think we are giving up on the wilds a little to soon. But if we're going to do something just close it all users for the first part. I've see plenty of "trout" fishermen just having a hay day with thirty plus fish days and white deer hair fly. Catching smolt all day. As far as single barbless I'd say in my experience the hook goes deeper that with trebles and causes atlease as much harm to the fish if not greater than a barbless treble. But then again I'm not giving up hope yet. We've been getting plenty of three salt hatcheries but haven't seen the two's in the large number that are usually there.

Tight lines

Kevin