#181407 - 01/12/03 11:09 PM
Drastic Times Call for Drastic Measures
|
Repeat Spawner
Registered: 03/06/99
Posts: 1273
Loc: Western Washington
|
As our Puget Sound rivers are facing another down year for wild winter steelhead, maybe it is time to look into some more unorthodox solutions or drastic measures. Take for example, our standard June 1 opening for our local rivers...if our rivers are closed under emergency regs in March and April to protect spawning wild steelhead, should we also delay the June 1 opening to allow the system to get totally flushed of these fish??? I can see keeping the upper portions of certain rivers under the standard June 1 opening because how often are wild winter steelhead caught at say the Cable Hole on the Sky on June 1???...not many!!...but how many are caught from Sultan down??...Lots!! It seems that in the past few years this has become very noticeable as the lower Skykomish has become a boat parade on June 1 of sleds, driftboats... How about a June 15th opener down low??...or opening the river when the river is determined to be almost void of wild winter steelhead??? Another suggestion...a bait ban in the summer??...How often do countless numbers of wild steelhead smolts and juvenilles inhale a gob of eggs?...and how often do those fish not swim away healthy??...very often!! I think it is time to not only protect our wild steelhead adults but the juvenilles as well! This can not only be done with a bait ban in the summer but with a barbless hook restriction as well...if you find the necassity to fish bait, the least you can do is debard the hooks...we all know barbless hooks reduce mortality in trout (which are wild steelhead juvenilles are more or less). Any thoughts???...any other recomendations!!
_________________________
Ryan S. Petzold aka Sparkey and/or Special
|
Top
|
|
|
|
#181408 - 01/13/03 01:37 AM
Re: Drastic Times Call for Drastic Measures
|
Spawner
Registered: 01/03/01
Posts: 801
Loc: Post Falls, ID
|
Do we know for sure this is going to be a down year for the natives? I thought they didn't start showing up in numbers until February. I could be wrong, but from what I've learned, it'd still be too early to come to any conclusions about the natives this winter. By the time they come up, they won't have to worry about low water like the hatchery fish did.
|
Top
|
|
|
|
#181409 - 01/13/03 05:01 AM
Re: Drastic Times Call for Drastic Measures
|
Spawner
Registered: 01/03/03
Posts: 830
Loc: Port Orchard
|
Originally posted by Sparkey: Another suggestion...a bait ban in the summer??...How often do countless numbers of wild steelhead smolts and juvenilles inhale a gob of eggs?...and how often do those fish not swim away healthy??...very often!!
This can not only be done with a bait ban in the summer but with a barbless hook restriction as well...if you find the necassity to fish bait, the least you can do is debard the hooks...we all know barbless hooks reduce mortality in trout (which are wild steelhead juvenilles are more or less). bait ban? barbless hooks? First off I have hooked more juvenlles on spinners and spoons. Sure the little guys peck the crap out of my eggs but I dont set the hook on them and rarely hook them. Second I have still to see a study on mortality of fish caught and released on barbed hooks verses barbless hooks! I have killed just as many if not more fish on barbless hooks. Just because a fish swims away does not mean it will survive! If you hook a fish in the tongue gill or through the top of its head its a dead fish, barbed or barbless. Fish hooked in the upper maxilla lower maxilla or the side of there mouth will live regardless of barbed or de barbed hooks used. but die if they are mis-handled. I dont know if there is a tribal fishery on the sky but if there is maybe that could be adding to no fish in the upper river? If the river was closed do you think they would stop. I am not saying that its all the indians fault but its kind of tough for fish to make it through mazes! thats if there is a tribal fishery there I dont know.
|
Top
|
|
|
|
#181410 - 01/13/03 05:17 AM
Re: Drastic Times Call for Drastic Measures
|
Spawner
Registered: 05/02/01
Posts: 763
Loc: Silver Star,Mt
|
They net the Snohomish but not the Sky. Putting nets in the Snohomish not only gets the fish for the Sky but also the Snoqualmie. BUt lets not talk about the indians as they get blamed for too many things that they don't do.
_________________________
I forgot what I was supposed remember.
|
Top
|
|
|
|
#181411 - 01/13/03 08:46 AM
Re: Drastic Times Call for Drastic Measures
|
River Nutrients
Registered: 03/08/99
Posts: 6830
|
Has the summer bait ban done anything positive on the Snoqualmie? This was pushed by certain fly fishing groups under the guise that it protects fish. So are summer run more plentiful now on the Snoqualmie than on the Sky? If there were a delay of an opening date than it should be the entire system. We need to get away from the bubble fishery mentality.
_________________________
"You learn more from losing than you do from winning." Lou Pinella
|
Top
|
|
|
|
#181415 - 01/13/03 12:07 PM
Re: Drastic Times Call for Drastic Measures
|
Three Time Spawner
Registered: 06/14/00
Posts: 1866
Loc: Toledo, Washington
|
_________________________
Cowlitzfisherman
Is the taste of the bait worth the sting of the hook????
|
Top
|
|
|
|
#181416 - 01/13/03 01:24 PM
Re: Drastic Times Call for Drastic Measures
|
Returning Adult
Registered: 08/18/00
Posts: 270
Loc: (Tacoma native),San Diego WA, ...
|
I musta missed somethin. How did this turn into a fly fisher v. the other guys?
My philosophy on fishing restrictions are this: Pay now or pay later!! And when you pay later it's always gonna be more expensive!!
I am in favor of anything that will help the fish runs become more robust, however shaky the science. What I mean is, if there is the slightest chance it will increase the number of "wild" and "native" fish we should implement it like yesterday!
You guys really think that hooking mortality on released fish is about equal for bait, artificials and barbed/barbless hooks?
How about goin to barbless circle hooks? I understand that they generally hook in the side or was it the corner of the mouth.
Sincerely, Roger
_________________________
"Man can learn a lot from fishing. When the fish are biting, no problem in the world is big enough to bne remembered. " -- Oa Battista
VERY Homesick in San Diego
|
Top
|
|
|
|
#181417 - 01/13/03 03:53 PM
Re: Drastic Times Call for Drastic Measures
|
Returning Adult
Registered: 03/10/00
Posts: 356
Loc: West of Eden
|
I'm sure most of the guys who post regularly on this board and use bait are experienced enough to hook and land fish with as minimal negative impact on the fish as is possible. However, I've seen dozens of novices who let a fish CHOW on shrimp or eggs until that hook is down deep. The final hookset pretty much seals the deal on the fishes fate...native, hatchery, immature...pretty much as indiscrimanent as it gets. Don't see many fish inhale a size 1/0 or 2/0 fly.
_________________________
Chasing old rags 500 miles from home.
|
Top
|
|
|
|
#181418 - 01/13/03 04:04 PM
Re: Drastic Times Call for Drastic Measures
|
Returning Adult
Registered: 03/08/99
Posts: 409
Loc: Bothell, WA
|
Gotta De-Lurk for this one. There are several good suggestions here and I don't really care if you're a flyfisherman (or have issues with flyfishermen) or not. There is a valid argument for a bait ban because hungry little smolt *swallow* the bait. Flies also cause high mortality among smolt, and the primary culprit is the larger x/0 hooks that are used tearing their faces off (especially when barbed). Maybe we should also consider a "maximum size" rule for hooks as well as the barbless restriction? Just because I'm willing to consider a bait ban in summer doesn't necessarily mean I'm some elitist flyfisher. It's something I've heard prominent members of the DFW and biologists mention as a significant cause of smolt mortality. Makes sense to consider it as runs become more and more depressed. As for the June 15th opener, if the season ends up being as bad as they're projecting (they do redd surveys in May) then it might be something to consider as well. This isn't fly vs gear, it's just a way to protect those few spawners strong enough to make a repeat trip from needless C&R stress (unless you're *really* hungry ). I don't like closures or restrictions anymore than the next guy. I'm just a fisherman - not a purist by any stretch of the imagination. Thanks Spark - Good Topic!! Brian
|
Top
|
|
|
|
#181419 - 01/13/03 04:30 PM
Re: Drastic Times Call for Drastic Measures
|
Spawner
Registered: 01/03/03
Posts: 830
Loc: Port Orchard
|
Originally posted by RRR: I musta missed somethin. How did this turn into a fly fisher v. the other guys?
My philosophy on fishing restrictions are this: Pay now or pay later!! And when you pay later it's always gonna be more expensive!!
You guys really think that hooking mortality on released fish is about equal for bait, artificials and barbed/barbless hooks?
Sincerely, Roger Whats the use use "paying" if it does no good! That gives people the false sense that there scientifically unfounded regulations are working while the fish are still disapearing. Something needs to be done but the state wont do it because it will take away there pocket money! One of the main problems I have with all closures is they really open it up to poaching! At least when things are open theres true sports fishermen present to curb poaching. If you only saw what I have seen you would be crazy with anger at what goes on at "closed" fisheries! Second I have still to see a study on mortality of fish caught and released on barbed hooks verses barbless hooks! I have killed just as many if not more fish on barbless hooks. Just because a fish swims away does not mean it will survive! If you hook a fish in the tongue gill or through the top of its head its a dead fish, barbed or barbless. Fish hooked in the upper maxilla lower maxilla or the side of there mouth will live regardless of barbed or de barbed hooks used. but die if they are mis-handled. So yes I do believe that hooking mortality is about the same. probably even better survival rate for barbed hook fish, seems how in salt water I use bigger hooks than I normally would and commonly skewer shakers throught the top of the head! Not my fault its this states politics. Did you know it was the commercial and tribal fishermen that pushed for barbless hooks in the first place? Its amazing how easy people are brainwashed.
|
Top
|
|
|
|
#181420 - 01/13/03 05:13 PM
Re: Drastic Times Call for Drastic Measures
|
Carcass
Registered: 10/31/02
Posts: 2227
Loc: Portland
|
Here is what I like about Sparkey's suggestions: They err on the side of protection.
Taking his approach, if he is wrong, the fish don't wind up dead. If some of the other approaches were undertaken and they were wrong, the result is dead fish.
Given that we know there is pressure on the native fish in these specific fisheries why would you be willing risk further loss?
I hear Sparkey saying 'let's err on the side of the fish for once' and I'm inclined to agree with him...
Hopefully Cowlitzfishermans attempts at categorizing those would protect fish before their 'right to fish' as 'elitist fly fishing-types' or 'agents of the state' is transparent.
I've never cast a fly at steelhead in my life and the only thing I've ever 'speyed' is my cat.
_________________________
"Christmas is an American holiday." - micropterus101
|
Top
|
|
|
|
#181422 - 01/13/03 06:12 PM
Re: Drastic Times Call for Drastic Measures
|
River Nutrients
Registered: 03/07/00
Posts: 3009
Loc: Lynnwood, WA
|
Did you know it was the commercial and tribal fishermen that pushed for barbless hooks in the first place? Micro, With all due respect, where the hell did you get that idea, and what proof can you offer to validate your claim? Barbless hooks (especially in salt water) are intended to make the release of undersized or non-targeted species less traumatic and harmful to the fish. (when proper release techniques are employed of course) Many comparative studies have been conducted on hooking mortality using barbed/barbless hooks, bait/hardware etc... It has been proven that a barless hook with no bait has the lowest occurence of mortality. (somewhere in the neighborhood of 3%) A search of this board will reveal many threads where this topic has been discussed in detail, and links to the studies were provided. Do you think that using barbed hooks in salt water will reduce the amount of shakers "skewered through the head'? You appear to consider yourself one of the few that haven't been "brainwashed by the state", and that you are aware of some sort of monetary conspiracy perpetrated on sporfishers by the WDFW. On what evidence do you base this opinion? If you honestly believe that all of the regulations concerning barbed/barbless hooks have no basis in science, WHY then do you think they exist? (please provide SOME sort of tangible evidence, and please, not more of CFM's "common sense" ) It's amazing how easy people are brainwashed. Concerning your position, truer words could not have been spoken.
_________________________
A day late and a dollar short...
|
Top
|
|
|
|
#181423 - 01/13/03 06:40 PM
Re: Drastic Times Call for Drastic Measures
|
Three Time Spawner
Registered: 06/14/00
Posts: 1866
Loc: Toledo, Washington
|
_________________________
Cowlitzfisherman
Is the taste of the bait worth the sting of the hook????
|
Top
|
|
|
|
#181425 - 01/13/03 06:46 PM
Re: Drastic Times Call for Drastic Measures
|
Returning Adult
Registered: 11/19/02
Posts: 374
Loc: Seattle, WA
|
Although I try my best never to agree with Sparks, just this once.. Here's a study I dug up. And no, I have nothing better to do at work! http://www.seagrant.sunysb.edu/Fishery/AnglerResource/Techniques/HookingMortality.htm
_________________________
"If fishing is like religion, then flyfishing is high church." -Tom Brokaw
|
Top
|
|
|
|
#181426 - 01/13/03 06:50 PM
Re: Drastic Times Call for Drastic Measures
|
Returning Adult
Registered: 07/16/99
Posts: 383
Loc: seattle,wa
|
Think we are giving up on the wilds a little to soon. But if we're going to do something just close it all users for the first part. I've see plenty of "trout" fishermen just having a hay day with thirty plus fish days and white deer hair fly. Catching smolt all day. As far as single barbless I'd say in my experience the hook goes deeper that with trebles and causes atlease as much harm to the fish if not greater than a barbless treble. But then again I'm not giving up hope yet. We've been getting plenty of three salt hatcheries but haven't seen the two's in the large number that are usually there.
Tight lines
Kevin
|
Top
|
|
|
|
|
1 registered (1 invisible),
629
Guests and
2
Spiders online. |
Key:
Admin,
Global Mod,
Mod
|
|
11498 Members
16 Forums
63783 Topics
645419 Posts
Max Online: 3001 @ 01/28/20 02:48 PM
|
|
|