Attached is an alert from WDFW regarding yesterday's cougar attack on the Kalama River.

http://www.wa.gov/wdfw/do/may03/may0703a.htm

Thankfully, nobody was injured. The cat bolted but they're trying to track it down. The angler was hiking out with a 25lb springer on his packframe. It doesn't say where, but my guess is he was up in the canyon. That seems like cougar country to me.

The cat was probably having as much luck with spring Chinook fishing as I am. So he tried another method. I'll stick to drifting eggs.........

Another ramification of the I-655... The one that nobody cared about because they thought it would not effect them.. WRONG!

Thanks for posting the article, this is not the first attack and it definently will not be the last attack under our mandated bear and cougar managment practices..
It's kinda ironic that they use hounds anyway to track down problem animals but now we get to pay houndsmen for their services where just a few years ago they were a revenue producing entity for the WDFW.. Oh Well!

Apathy Kills!

What's the world coming to when there's wild animals in the woods? Is this the 19th century or something?

Think about it guys. We are in their territory. We act like it is unusual to hear of this happening or something. For the guy that mentioned something about bears. There are tons of bears and black bears dont attach much unless some idiot is messing with a sow and cubs. If you go out in the woods expect to see wildlife isnt that the what we expect to see when in the woods.

It was quite unusual to hear of this prior to 1996, but since the passage of certain intiatives we now get to hear about it more and more!
We usta to have a great balance with bears and cougars here in this state, that was taken from us. Now we get to pay lotsa money to manage them the same way they were managed prior to I-655 . It was a revenue producer now it's a big fat expendature that takes $ from other programs.

Do you want me to post some articles about some gruesome black bear attacks? They will attack, you just dont need to find a sow and cubs.
With the ever growing populations of these animals they are becoming much more agressive than in the past when they were kept in check.

So the opinion is that if we are in the woods and get attacked by a cougar, nothing should be done? We are in its territory, so the cougar has the right to pounce. Hmmm...

Same thing goes when the cougar snatches a kid from his backyard, right? There shouldn't have been a house there anyway...we encroached on the cougar's turf.... We should look at this just like when we lose a salmon to a sea lion....

I myself think it is kind of important that cougars fear humans and if that means destroying aggresive cougars, so be it.

Thankfully, common sense prevails. Under WDFW policy, cougars that attack humans are tracked and killed.

You nailed it ET!
That fear is diminishing very quick when these animals are competing for territory and food, when they didnt have to prior to 1996.

Its called check and balance! We got no check now, which equals no balance!

black bears will not only attack you, they will eat you. I was told on a trip to Alaska that if a griz attacks play dead and you might live... If a blackie attacks, fight until you cant anymore, if they think youre dead, you're a meal.

Ok, lets try to put this in a logical perspective...

Driftboater, as one who keeps abreast of these issues, obviously you must know that cougar and bear hunting has not been outlawed, only certain methods used to hunt them (which some would argue aren't very "sporting") so your "fear of man" theory is out the window. If you think about it, wouldn't it be "fear of hounds" since it's the dogs that do all of the work.

If you check WDFW statistics, you'll find that the number of bears and cougars taken during legal hunting seasons has actually increased since I-655 was passed! Imagine that...

Do a little research into the number of humans attacked by cougars here in the last 30 years or so. (I believe Oregon hasn't recorded a single one) MANY more children are killed by domestic dogs. Dogs have obviously lost their fear of man right? Hey, let's go kill a few.

Obviously bears and cougars can be dangerous animals, that's not what's being debated here. The fact that you think this is all directly related to the passing of the I-655 initiative is.

2 years ago, shark attacks in Florida appeared to be dramatically increasing. Hell, you couldn't turn on the news without hearing another story of someone being attacked. When the year was over, and all of the data was compiled, incidences of shark attack were actually statistically LOWER than average.

Media sensationalism played a HUGE role in making it appear as though the sharks were out to get us, but the facts just don't support this. I believe the same thing happens with these cougar attack stories. They happen so infrequently that, when it does occur, it makes quite a story.

Allright 4-salt lets play!

Since you have done some research on the stats why not post up your findings.

If in fact you are correct that the stats are higher (which I highly doubt especially for cougars)
On bears, that may hold true. The reasons IMO would be because of the extended seasons, the abundance of animals along with the fact that we now have certain spring hunts, also the opportunity to take two bears, plus the fact that permits are considerably cheaper as in the past. They basically just give em to ya for like ten bucks where they usta cost something like 30..

As stated above I would like to see the numbers on cougar harvests. If cougar numbers have risen. They must be counting all the depradation hunts that are taking place in the east side of the state. please post up your stats from WDFW..

Here are some stats I recieved from the WDFW

1995
Bear Complaints Statewide 208
Cougar Complaints Statewide 247

1998

Bear Complaints Statewide 786
Cougar Complaints Statewide 927


Dogs and Sharks,,lets stick to the topic at hand and not compare apples and oranges, OK.....

Oh, just where did I say hunting bears and cougars is outlawed?
Dont play your little word twist game with me that you so elequently like doing to others, it wont work with me!

db'er,

Meaningless statistics. Complaints? What's that mean......you saw a cougar/bear behind the house?

Like you, I think game management by ballot is a bad idea.........but I also think the fear of cougars and bears is WAY overblown.

You know how many people have been killed by cougars in WA since 1900? ONE.

Sounds to me like people are just LOOKING for something to worry about.

Dan,,

I am not sure on the criteria for what a "complaint" but IMO it is a damn good barometer for what the population levels post I-655

Driftboater - You obviously have much more of a vested interest in this topic than I, and probably have more time to "play." But, just so you won't go away empty-handed, here's a couple of links to statistics that I managed to find during a preliminary search:

Cougar attack stats

2000 black Bear harvest

2000 Cougar harvest

Downloadable PDF harvest trend stats

1998 Game harvest stats PDF

If you click on the links provided in each of these links, much more data is available.


I disagree on the shark example being apples/oranges. It CLEARLY illustrates my point about media hype distorting the public's perception of the real dangers at hand.

As far as dogs go, you are using the argument that there is now an imminent danger to children from cougars as a direct result of the passage of I-655 causing them to lose their fear of man. I'm putting it into relative terms by citing the FACT that many MORE children are killed by dogs.

If you were to draw the logical conclusion it would be: Dogs are more dangerous than cougars. Why aren't you advocating reduction of this danger by it's elimination?

Man shoots cougar near back porch

The Associated Press
11/26/02 3:41 PM


HALFWAY, Ore. (AP) -- A man shot a cougar near his neighbor's back porch after the animal charged his neighbor's 5-year-old son.

Duane Anderson shot the animal twice Sunday with a .223 caliber rifle.

Raymond Denig walked onto a back porch and saw the cougar just two feet away. The child ran back inside and the cat pursued, placing its paws on the door's window and snarling, said the boy's father, Joe Denig.

Anderson said the first indication that the large cat was in the area came Saturday night, when his three dogs became panicky.

Sunday morning the cougar was wrangling with the Denig's dog, and Anderson grabbed his gun.

George Keister, district wildlife biologist for the Oregon Department of Fish and Wildlife, said the cougar appeared to be about two years old, and was extremely emaciated.

"It was getting desperate, I think. A cougar in that condition is more likely to attack a person," Keister said.


----------------------------------------------------------------------------

Fellas...... Let's not overdue it. I was just pointing out there's a coug on the Kalama that anglers need to be aware of.

It seems to me the cat wasn't trying to attack the angler. He was after the fish, not the person. Otherwise, we would have had one less angler amongst us. <img border="0" alt="[eat]" title="" src="graemlins/eat.gif" /> When the cat realized his mistake, he was gone in a flash. Good thing too. Trying to fend off a big cat with a pack frame and fishing rod is probably not very effective.

This has nothing to do with ballot petitions, statistics, or wildlife management. We fish where bears, cougars, wolves, and coyotes live. To some degree, that's the point. Can I catch spring Chinook in downtown Portland? Sure, right under the Fremont Bridge, but I'd rather try to land them in the Kalama River Canyon, cougars and all. It's part of the experience.

Just keep your eyes open........

I really like the part where the mama cougar cougar is teaching the little cougar to hunt!
+++++++++++++++++++++++
True Cougar Tales
Truth is more amazing than myth when it comes to stories about human encounters with big cats


Bob Mottram; The News Tribune
January 9, 2002


It's a little after midnight, only a couple of years ago, and a man has just let two dogs out of his house near Issaquah.
Suddenly he hears an unusual noise outside. He returns to the door and cautiously opens it, and one of his dogs races into the house. The dog is cowering, shaking, whining. And the dog is alone. The man can feel the hair on the back of his neck stand up.

He picks up a flashlight and steps out through the door, into the dark. His frightened dog remains inside. The night is deathly still. He searches for his other dog, but it's gone without a trace. Finally he pauses beneath a tree, his eyes and ears on full alert.

THUNK!

Something heavy hits the ground beside him in the dark. He jumps and flips his light on, and there it is: The other dog.

And it is dead.

The man twists around and shines his light above him, into the tree. And two green eyes stare back. Behind the eyes are 120 pounds of lethal intent.

The man moves slowly, so as not to encourage an attack. He retrieves a rifle from his house. He kills the cat.

South Florida has its gators, Montana its grizzly bears. Arizona has its poisonous snakes. Story and myth have grown around them all.

Here at home we have our cats. They call them mountain lions or pumas in parts of the mountain West, catamounts in the East. In the Northwest, though, we call them cougars, and Northwesterners have no need for myth.

The truth is amazing enough.

When campfires flicker deep in Northwest woods, staving off the darkening night, people shiver and huddle closer to that little piece of light. And then the story-telling starts. When it comes your turn to talk, here is a handful of tales - all true - from among those in the archives of The News Tribune that you can use to weave a spell with campfire friends.

Tug-of-war for life

The time is August 1999 and a man from Aberdeen awakens in his tent about 2 a.m. He's camped at Sol Duc Campground in Olympic National Park. His dog outside is yelping. The night is black.

The man steps out of his tent, and pulls on the chain to which his dog is tethered. Something in the dark pulls back. A tug-of-war ensues. After a moment the pulling stops, and the man sees something melt into the night.

The wounds sustained by his 65-pound dog are evidence that the something was a cougar. The dog survives.

A young cougar's near trophy

It's late June 1994, a Saturday about 7 p.m., on the Skookumchuck River in southern Thurston County. It's broad daylight that time of day that time of year. Mario Troche of Pierce County is fishing with a friend.

Troche, wearing chest waders, has walked up the trunk of a large maple tree whose roots are under water a few feet from the bank and whose sloping trunk rises gradually over the river. His friend, Chris Billings, fishes from the opposite bank. They're joking back and forth.

Suddenly, Troche gets a funny feeling. He turns around, and he catches his breath. On the bank behind him is a cat, its head the size of a volleyball, its forearms the size of Troche's calves. She lies in the shadows, staring at Troche.

But that's just half the problem. On the trunk of his tree is another, smaller cat. And it's coming after him. Troche is amazed. The cat had waded belly-deep in water to reach the tree.

The big cat appears to be agitated. She shifts her rear end back and forth, as though trying to find traction. She flicks her tail. Then Troche's gaze returns to the second cat, the one on his log, whose weight he estimates at nearly 100 pounds. It continues to close the distance; to 10 feet, then to 6.

Suddenly, truth floods Troche's brain. These are a mother and a cub. The mother is teaching the cub to hunt. Troche is the huntee.

The water behind him is 8 feet deep. If he jumps, his waders will fill with water and pull him down. Both men yell, but it doesn't scare the cat. So Troche wields his only weapon. He uses his fishing rod to whip the cat about the face. This doesn't faze the cat. It bites at the rod and hits at it with its paws.

The mother watches, growling.

Finally, Billings throws some rocks. They hit the cub in the ribs and chest. Slowly, it backs down off the log, leaps up the bank, and goes to Mom.

In an instant, they are gone.

The disappearing goats

The night was such a dark and eerie one. Some horses pastured across the road milled uneasily for so long, sending shivers of concern along the spines of those who heard them. A neighbor's dog barked frantically at some unseen presence in the dark. And Alan Galbreth realized how isolated he and his family were on their five-acre plot a few miles outside Marysville.

Finally the sun returned, and when Galbreth went to his window in the morning he could see his goats, all 10 of them, browsing peacefully in their pasture behind the woven-wire fence. The sight was reassuring.

Three hours later, Galbreth looked again. A goat was down.

Galbreth hurried to the pasture, and what he found was chilling. His goat was dead. So was another. And another. So were two more. Not eaten, just dead.

Almost before he knew it, darkness was coming around again. As it descended, Galbreth locked his remaining goats inside their shed, and went into the house. In 20 minutes he returned. No. 6 was gone.

Galbreth slept fitfully that night. Next day he kept his four remaining goats inside the shed, and kept them there that night as well. By the following morning, it appeared the killing had stopped. He released the goats into a little pen beside the shed.

That afternoon he glanced outside, and couldn't believe what he saw. Another goat was down. An animal had pinned it to the dirt.

Galbreth retrieved a rifle, stepped onto his deck, and fired several shots. The assailant curled its toes and died. It turned out to be a cougar; just a kitten, hardly more than 40 pounds. Just losing its baby spots.

Caught between a cat and its prey

The year was 1995, the month September, and Joe Bloomquist of Port Orchard was wrapping up a summer of guiding fishermen in Montana. He was 22 at the time, a fisheries major at the University of Washington.

Bloomquist was on a postman's holiday, tossing flies for trout with his cousin, Mike Herrick, on a creek a few miles east of Missoula. They were fishing their way upstream when Bloomquist decided to leapfrog ahead by cutting across a neck of land where the water made a loop.

In the woods, he spotted a deer among the trees. A buck. A dead buck. But it had beautiful horns. Horns to die for.

Bloomquist had spent a lot of his life in the woods; plenty of time to learn that whatever had killed this buck must have packed a lot of punch. And plenty of time to learn that whatever it was wouldn't want him coming around its prize.

Just chalk it up to the horns. It was the sight of them that drove other thoughts right out of his head. He wanted to retrieve the rack and take it home.

Bloomquist never saw it, and he never heard it coming. It hit him from behind. Next thing he knew, he was on the ground.

When he lifted his face from the dirt, he was looking into the eyes of an angry cat.

He thinks it was his pack that saved him. It contained a couple of 8-by-12-inch plastic boxes in which he carried flies. The cougar hit the boxes with its head and mouth, and that's what saved his back.

The man lay face-down on the ground. The cougar crouched nearby. That's when Bloomquist's cousin hit the scene, running hard and hollering at the cat. His arrival caught the cat's attention, which gave Bloomquist time to grab his rod.

He got to his feet, swinging the fly rod like a switch, and slowly backed away. The cat stayed where it was. Between Bloomquist and the deer.

The cougar and the hot dogs

It happened on a Friday evening in a campground in Olympic National Park. The year was in 1994, and some people sat beside a fire at their campsite cooking hot dogs.

While they cooked, a cougar crept to within 10 feet. Suddenly, a woman screamed. The startled cat jumped one way, and the startled people jumped the other, and the cat raced up a tree while the people stormed their trailer and slammed the door behind them.

The cat was the first to recover its aplomb. As the people peered from the trailer's windows, the cat climbed down the tree, ate the people's dinner and walked into the woods.

Careful who you stalk

Jim Martin of Vancouver was hunting deer and elk in the Gifford Pinchot National Forest one September, armed only with a bow, when he noticed a cougar crouching in the brush about 70 yards away. The cat was staring directly at his eyes.

A shiver of excitement ran down his spine, but Martin wasn't afraid. A logging road about 100 yards away bisected the clearcut in which he stood, and he decided that if he could get to the road he somehow would be safe.

He started to circle away from the cat, keeping it in sight. As long as he could see the cat, it didn't move.

The man passed behind a brush pile, and momentarily the cat was out of sight. When he came out the other side the cat was gone. Martin felt relieved. He thought the cat had run away.

What he saw next unnerved him. The cat was right behind the brush. While the man was out of sight, it had closed the space between them by 50 yards. Now it was only 20 yards away.

Martin now felt terror. He knew the cat was stalking him. The road still was 50 yards away, and he thought the cat would maul him in the clearcut and he never would be found.

Martin headed toward the road as fast as he could go, beating through the brush and clambering over logs, never looking back. When he stepped onto the road, he felt relief. He walked a few more yards, and finally turned to look.

There, in the middle of the road behind him, was the cat.

Martin walked a couple of feet. So did the cat.

He decided he'd had enough.

Martin nocked an arrow, drew his bow and released the shaft. He heard a thud, and the cougar walked into the brush.

It went about 40 yards before it died.

- - -

4-Salt: Thank you for the comparison.

"MANY more children are killed by domestic dogs. Dogs have obviously lost their fear of man right? Hey, let's go kill a few. "

Yes, let's!!! Oh, that's right we do already. Any dog that kills a child is destroyed!!! Any dog that injures a person can be destroyed and any dog that even threatens a person, can be destroyed if deemed an uncontrollable threat!

Great stories there Driftboater.

Here is a little joke I like about bears:

The Alaska State Department of Fish and Game is advising hikers, hunters, fishermen and golfers to take extra precautions and keep alert for bears while in the Kenai Mountains area.

They advise people to wear noise-producing devices such as little bells on their clothing to alert but not startle the bear unexpectedly. They also advise carrying pepper spray in case of an encounter with a bear. It is also a good idea to watch for fresh signs of bear activity and ... know the difference between black bear and grizzly bear droppings.

Black bear droppings are smaller and contain berries and possibly squirrel fur. Grizzly bear droppings have little bells in them and
smell like pepper spray.

ET,

The BIG difference is, we don't go out and hunt down Fido BEFORE he attacks a child, just cause we think he might...

YES WE DO!!! If we have half a brain. You just happen to hit a raw nerve. My neighbor has a mutt that has threatened my children while they have been coming home from school. The neighbor has failed to leash the animal and I've reported it to the police twice now. One more time and that dog is gone!

Besides... this cougar attacked a fisherman....didn't look at him....didn't growl at him.....it jumped him!

4Salt,,

I see where there are 208 harvested cougars on that spread sheet and 23 depradation and 21 safety removals.

I just reviewed the document from Dave Britteil Asst Director of the WDFW December 9 1996 about the request from the House Natural Resource Committe for an assessment of the impacts of I-655

It clearly states in there the harvest reports from the cougar "permit" season to be 283 cougars harvested for 1995. They issued 446 permits for an 81% success rate.
Now they basically give away the cougar permit for like, 5 dollars. This is to get everyone out in the woods to be shooting at cougars in hopes they will keep harvests #'s up.

I have the economy impacts that was presented to the committee, they are in the millions for bear and cougar.
I also have revenue numbers that were lost due in fact to the I-655 and also expendatures that were incurred by the WDFW post I-655 (which measure in the millions each year)
I have a harvest data report that goes back prior to the bounty (1935)
I even have a chart that shows in 1995 that there were 10 problem cougars killed by WDFW (that number has sure increased)
Matter of fact we had a revenues for just the cougar that was close to 600,000 and post I-655 WDFW reports an expendature of 1.3 million.. Wouldnt you like seeing that 1.3 million a year going somewhere else?

This is a hard copy report in front of me. I would be more than happy to make copies of it and snail mail it to you!

ET,

I think we're a little off-track here. My main point was to dispute Driftboater's claim that a dramatic increase in the number of cougar/bear attacks have taken place since the passing of I-655.

The neighbor's dog has threatened your children. You have witnessed this first-hand. I agree completely that some measures should be taken in your case.

My dog example was merely that, an example. I could have used the comparison that many more children are killed in household accidents, traffic accidents, by bicycles etc...

ALL I was trying to do was dispell some of the fear and paranoia of being injured or killed by a cougar, and provide a counterpoint to the use of that fear to re-instate what could be considered an un-sporting method of hunting them.

Driftboater - I have NO opposition to hunter's keeping the cougar population in check. I was merely disputing your claim that the reason the fisherman on the Kalama was attacked is because we don't hunt them anymore with hounds. That's it!

4salt, how is the use of hounds unsporting? Cougars, etc, still get away often times.

Is bird hunting with dogs any less "unsporting?" Obviously they give the hunter much more of an advantage over the bird. Maybe just pointers? After all, a hunter can often times almost step on birds that are pointed.

In both cases dogs can be harmed by their prey or during the hunt itself. I personally know of a brittany that lost an eye due to a rooster pheasant.

There is no difference, IMO. Hound hunting is sporting and should be allowed for preditor control.

I have heard that term used many times by Animal Rights groups that are trying to paint an unclear picture to the media about certain practices.
Reminds me of a quote by Wayne Pacelle of Fund for Animals (now president of HSUS, they same group WT loves so much and endorses)

"I personally oppose fishing" a hooked fish feels pain equivalent to "...... a human having his hand impaled and being jerked off the ground by a hook"

Pretty obsured! huh! Just like your take on my way be "un-Sporting"
I take it you have never been on a hound hunt and have only read and saw one sided campaign footage!

Thats a good one Sky Guy!

Glad you enjoyed those stories. I have many many more that I have saved over the years just for instances like this

Man! You folks are tryin' to "tree me like a cat!"

Operative word: COULD

NOWHERE does it say "I"

No, I haven't been on a hound hunt, and CWU girl, we weren't discussing "predator control" hunts. We were talkin' about the guy on the Kalama. For predator removal/problem animal hunts, the most expiditious method should be used. In the case of cougars, if that means hounds, go for it!

Driftboater - Them PETA types sure got yer dander up, don't they. Everything appears to be an animal-rights issue to you. I've got NOTHING against hunting, and lord knows I love to fish. I've also got to get some work done today, so maybe you could go and argue this with chappy on the hunting board.

Well what made ya think that I have had three things taken from me. Hound hunting, bear baiting,and trapping.
I sure hope that if you have something taken from you you will stand up and be heard.

You are correct in your statement about "could" and "I" but it has (not by you) been portrayed that way.
i admit I played a little dirty there, but I am just using this platform as tool to hopefully teach other user groups about what we are facing with these AR groups.

Ohh, I will just leave that one alone. It is pretty quite over there. I think I have scared him and BBVD away. Oh well

Get your work done! and I appreciate our discussions today I think we both learned a thing or two.

Thank You

its easy.... bring back the wolf! its easier and better than rednecks trying to play god. most of the rednecks ive met couldnt manage a 7-11 let alone an ecosystem..... if a cougar wants to try and steal my springer, he has a fight in store for him. especially since my wolf hybrid fishes the kalama with me.
Ive had cougars attack my rabbits before and i was chased by a mother bear when i was in 7th grade. even still, i wouldnt want to eliminate them from our forests or put renecks in charge of controling them.

All I CAN Say Is I Hate Anti's .Like You Chappy You LIER'S. I'm Just Tired Of The LIE'S. Rick. Former Bear Baiter . Redneck .

all this talk about cougars has got me hungry i think i'll go pull a nice lean tasty cougar steak out of the freezer tomorrow night its bbq bear burgers weather permitting of course

Who said rednecks were going to be in charge of controlling bears or cougars?? My word, that sounds horrible!! Who would think of such a thing??

It is my understanding that its the Washington Department of Fish and Wildlife is in charge of controlling preditor and prey species. They set the limits every year, the methods that can be employed to hunt.... not the rednecks.

And no one here has said they want to eliminate cougars or bears. However, there should be effective management tools employed. Unfortunately, the initiative process took the effective wildlife management tool out of the hands of the WDFW.

And the wolf needs entirely too much territory to be a reasonable solution.

PS- Seattle? Hybred wolf?? Those were outlawed a few years back due to their unpredictable nature in that county if I remember right....

This is the second bad cougar I have read about on this board in the last two weeks, first Mike Price and now this one. If this turns out anything like the Mike Price incident don't worry the hounds from the press will get em treed, make him scream for mercy and bring him down.

Well what do you expect? Take away the hounds, and move thousands of californians into the cougars territory. You get encounters. We either need to stop people from coming here, and stop expansion or decrease the number of wildlife. There is only so much land left in this state for them and we're eating it up faster than a lot of you (blind) individuals think.

Hey chappy. Dude shut up. Bring the wolves back and the cougar population will decrease. Good one. Only because their will be no deer or elk left for them to eat. Than you'll have a bunch of really hungry cats that will come even closer to residential areas to get cats, dogs and livestock. Really good idea. What is it Red Foreman always calls Eric on That 70'S show. Right you get the picture.

Glow

Yikes!....Cougars in the woods <img border="0" alt="[wall]" title="" src="graemlins/wall.gif" /> <img border="0" alt="[wall]" title="" src="graemlins/wall.gif" /> <img border="0" alt="[wall]" title="" src="graemlins/wall.gif" /> I think im gonna stick to Zoo Creek and Reiter. Safety in numbers... Chances are, i can outrun the guy next to me thats tangled up in a wad of mono, beer cans, and styrafoam.

I know what Red say's

HEY DUMBA S S!

Thanks for your awesome insight there Chapster, I always like a good laugh and you sure bring some good ones out in me! Keep up the good work.

Are you gonna reply to the second request about your hybrid wolf pet?

Another very good reason I carry a side arm with me. Way to go Drift boater. I completely agree, and unfortunately I don't have the statistics with me. But whe nthat intiative passed I found it very odd that the game dept. would basically give away the cougar and bear tags? They new the best methods for huntign them had just been taken away. It is also strange that up to that point you used to have to apply for a permit to hunt cougars!! Now you can get a tag for $10 and can hunt them fro Aug through March. The harvest hsn't gone up for either bears or coupgars since the hound hunting and bear baiting ban! Yeah sure there are more animals. But the hunters are left without viable way to hunt them.

And Chappy, you are way off base on the wof thing. Give it a rest already!! Wolves and cougars dont have natural predators!! Except maybe grizly bears. There aren't enough game animals to support wolves plus all the cougars and bears that we have already. And support hunting seasons that bring a lot of revenue itno this state!
Buck

i just got back from having a look around the reiter area and i happened to come across a fresh set of cougar tracks in some mud,so i was checking them out because they were pretty big and i saw that the water it stepped in was still murky right on the print area and clear elsewhere.so it had to be right in the area very close that spooked the hell out of me needless to say i didn't waste any time getting out of there i didn't run out just walked normally with an eye over my shoulder the hole way out.the hatchery released a lot of smolts and they are still pretty thick.maybe the cat was feeding on some i didnt stick around to find out.

Good comments glow ball I agree. Everyone keeps jumping around talking about bear and then cougar. These animals have different instincts. First of all I have hunted bears for years. When ever I have encountered a bear the instant they smell you they head on a dead sprint the opposite way. dont forget Grizzleys and black bears are much different from one another. Obviously Alaska has a ton more bears than we do if you have ever been there. I dont think statistics need to be involved in this conversation. A person will be lucky to ever see a cougar in his/her life. The dude about the wolves your an absolute idiot!! Lets remember where we live and what we love and that is fish and wildlife so if you dont like it dont fish in the wilderness. I would recommend to move to California if you dont want to see bears or cougs

I've had cougars trail me on the river...

I went back to fish again a stretch I had fished earlier one morning to find fresh kitty prints in my footsteps...

One time I was fishing a relatively remote OP stream in the snow, followed my own foot prints back and found fresh kitty prints. Did I mention how dark it was? Yikes that was long walk/power walk back to my rig...

If you want to carry a sidearm to the river that's your right and I wouldn't take that away from anyone.

I think it would be wise though to REALLY think about why you are taking it to the river and consider if its really necessary.

I've have never heard of anyone successfully defending against a cougar attack with a gun...never. Who but hunters and fishermen put themselves any deeper in cougar country...

I do know this with some measure of certainty as it has been related to me by great grandfather, a logger, woodsman and avid hunter of deer, elk and cougar on the OP during a time when nearly the only pressure was by locals....

...cougar attacks are defended best by using your arms to protect your neck, not reach for your gun. Usually by the time you are able to reach for your gun the cougar is hightailing it out of there...

The ONE place my great grandfather never took his gun was the river...

Surprisingly, I'm not a real big anti-gun guy either. I wouldn't be so looking forward to firing my father-in-law's Kalashnikov this weekend if I were....I just can't think of a reason why anyone would feel the need to have a firearm on the river. I'm not a prude about it though...if a guy feels like he has to carry a gun in my boat then I'm ok with that....expect me to ask why though.

Just to clarify, California has an abundance of cougar in fact there have been fatal attacks by cougar in the state.

Fact of the matter is cougars benefit human safety. In the last century there has been one fatal cougar attach in Washington, zero in Oregon. Many people have died by hitting, or attempting to avoid deer and elk on highways. Cougars control large ungulates. This reduces the presences of these animals on highways. The alternative is hunters shooting deer and elk. Statistics prove beyond a shadow of a doubt that humans with guns controlling deer and elk herds are many times more dangerous to humans than abundant and healthy natural predators (cougars and wolves) controlling these animals.

It is disgusting to hear hound hunters use false information to create fear of wildlife in a naive public.

He should just be glad that it ws not a bear interested in his springer!

Jay

fair hooker,
The cougars do control the deer herd, but when the population of cats gets too high the deer herd dwindles dramatically. Like right now. In most of western washington you can't see a dozen deer on a night of driving around the backroads when you used to be able to see 30-40. Now I know this isn't all because of the cougars, but they do eat a deer a week. I'm sure a few narrow minded individuals will jump and say " I got deer all over my area" well it won't be long and the cats will be there to take care of them.

It won't be long and the fuzzy bunny people will figure out whats happening to the deer and they'll start complaining to the WDFW about how they aren't doing their job. When in reality they're the ones who helped wipe the deer herds out by wiping out the hounds.

By the way there are way more encounters than those stats show. Probably that many in lewis county alone. Country folk don't run to the man every time they have a problem.

Can't believe no one has shown concern for the 25# springer on the back of his pack. That is the real tragedy!

and is that your opinion or do you have some actual facts or is that just something you thought up during a pipe dream?
False information to a naive puplic,,, that is tactics employed by groups such as HSUS/PAC
which BTW, recieved the maximum penalty allowed under state law, for running an illegal campaign filled full of deciet. That is fact!
Just who is calling the kettle black? We did not get fined for our legal campaigns.

I do recall some footage used by the anti's during the campaign that was not on the up and up. Do you rememeber that? or were you still living out of our state?

Show us these stats!

(QUOTE) Fact of the matter is cougars benefit human safety

How is it that they learned these habit's you speak of did they sit in on some drivers education classes or something oh i know they got thier training from the border patrol probably got your facts the same place i got mine

I'm a little late in getting on this thread, but those of you that think that baiting bears and cougars, having your hounds chase them up trees and blasting them at close range is "sporting," give me a break!

Hey Jeff e,,

Strong opinion you have there. Was that developed from actual experiences of a hound or a bait hunt?

Same strong opinions could be made on many fishing methods, as being "sporting"

here is a question for ya,

Is it OK with you that WDFW pay these same individuals that actually contributed $$ to conduct this heritage but are now getting paid by you and me for their services..

Here are some numbers to the House Natural Resources Committe from the WDFW on the post I-655 impacts for managing the cougar. They estimated 1.1 - 1.4 million.

Those monies sure could be used in other fish and wildlife programs huh

That's an interesting point dribtboater. I've just seen videos of the scenario that I posted above and it struck me as a "sad method to hunt." If the Cougars are in fact becoming overpopulated, that certainly needs to be dealt with, but I maintain that initiative had its merrits.

Well said, Jeff'e'd.
Or put another way, substitute 'salmon' for 'bear' and 'nets for 'bait' and you have the same 'sport'.
In other areas, the same 'sport' is driving to the local dump at night and shooting you 'trophy' in the headlights.
Quite a challenge.
It would make me feel more like a man.

It looks as though you may have fell victom to one of many decietfull tactics these groups emplore.

Why haven't raccoon or rabbit hunts been outlawed?
Why just bear and cougar? Is it because they have been portrayed for so long as endangered cute and cuddly animals?

Hey goforchrome,, its ok to slap on a nightcrawler to attract a fish, but unethical to to do that for bear? hmmm
Looks to me like you have fallen victom to the same media campaigns.


=============================
Animal rights groups targeting hunting, fishing
They are pressuring corporations with public campaigns, Fenton Roskelley writes.
September 12, 2001
Fenton Roskelley - The Spokesman-Review


Inland Northwest hunters and fishers are becoming accustomed to being attacked by animal rights groups and their supporters.
Most of them know their enemies. Among their most vociferous and persistent critics are the animal rights activists such as the Humane Society of the United States, People for the Ethical Treatment of Animals (PETA) and the Friends of Animals.

The animal rightists want to stop all hunting and fishing. To the consternation of sportsmen, they have converted many Americans to their way of thinking.

Unfortunately, for hunters and fishers, the rights groups win more battles than they lose. They pick their battles carefully. They know most Americans have little sympathy for trappers; consequently, they've targeted trapping in many states and they've succeeded in getting some states either to ban trapping or drastically curtail it.

Every time they conduct a campaign, they win converts to their cause even though they lose a battle. As a result, they add to the growing number of citizens who believe that hunting should be banned or sharply curtailed.

They know that persuading Americans to ban fishing will be a tough sell. So far, an overwhelming majority of Americans support fishing so they are concentrating on trying to get people to ban hunting.

Woods and fields of the Inland Northwest are filling with deer, bear, elk and bird hunters. All but a minority are behaving ethically. Among the minority, however, are the poachers and hooligans, none of whom will consider how destructive their actions are to conscientious hunters.
Animal rightists are always looking for incidents that will help their cause. They publicize the transgressions of the poachers and hooligans on their Web sites and send out press releases that infer that all hunters are bloodthirsty louts.
They have developed several often-effective strategies to win their fights. They intimidate government agencies, persuade people to boycott big store chains that sell furs or anything made of animal parts and sweet-talk voters into banning certain types of hunting.

PETA last week won a battle to force Wendy's restaurants to change its ways of buying meat. PETA supporters picketed restaurants and intimidated customers. Activists shouted "Wendy's tortures animals." The day after Wendy's caved in to PETA's demands, the organization's Web site carried a story about the campaign. The headline crowed "PETA Wins Wicked Wendy's Campaign."

PETA targets many big companies for allegedly mistreating animals or supporting hunting and fishing. It also picks on federal and state government agencies.

For example, the National Trappers Association recently petitioned the U.S. Postal Service to create a series of stamps honoring trappers. PETA has asked its members to write to politicians and Postal Service officials protesting the NTA proposal.

The stamps, PETA says, "would glorify the cruel mutilation and slaughter of animals.

The group's members are now writing letters urging the University of Florida not to pick an Oregon scientist for an important job. P. Michael Conn of the Oregon Regional Primate Center is one of the finalists for vice president of research at the university.

"Conn conducts painful, unscientific and unethical gland research on marmoset, rhesus and macaque monkeys," PETA alleges.

PETA also is conducting campaigns against several big companies it claims are guilty of animal abuse. It says Nissan "glorifies bullfighting," Isuzu "uses skins to sell SUVs" and Hilton Hotels "holds animals captive."

To avoid bad publicity, many corporations do what PETA wants them to do.

PETA, which recently launched a campaign to ban all fishing, is trying to force the Boy Scouts of America to drop its merit badge on fishing. So far, the group hasn't demanded that states end hunting and fishing, something, they know won't be done.

The Fund for Animals has demanded that newspaper editors and officials of TV cable channels stop promoting hunting and trapping. It's too early to know whether any editors or TV officials have changed their policies.

Incidentally, the Fund for Animals is the organization that wants all Americans to become vegetarians. One of its advertising campaigns is titled "Spare an animal, eat a vegetable."

The Humane Society of the United States, the biggest and most powerful animal rights group, has won numerous battles in its campaign against hunting. It claims that it is responsible for the bans against trapping in Arizona, California, Colorado and Massachusetts, and the ban of steel traps in New Jersey.

HSUS also says it thwarted an attempt to open bear hunting in Florida, Maryland and New Jersey. The society has condemned dove hunting.

HSUS last week claimed the wild services branch of the Department of Agriculture "is violating Washington's law restricting the use of cruel and indiscriminate steel-jawed leghold traps and certain poisons to kill wildlife."

So far HSUS hasn't condemned the latest action by the Washington Fish and Wildlife Commission enabling hound hunters to kill more cougars in areas where the cats are threatening people and livestock. The commission will issue permits for 109 cougars in 21 game management units. Last year 74 permits were issued. For a permit to be issued, there must be 11 confirmed complaints involving human/cougar interaction, at least four of which must involve a threat to the safety of humans, pets or livestock. Hunters say the requirement is too stringent.

To the HSUS, however, any change easing the regulations to control cougar numbers is unacceptable. Maybe HSUS is too involved with its many anti-hunting campaigns to protest the commission's action.


&#8226;You can contact Fenton Roskelley by voice mail at 459-5577, extension 3814.

The argument can be made that baiting bears is the most sporting way to hunt them. It takes days of preparation and work to get a bait station running. In the end the hunter knows the routines of the local bears and can set himself up for a perfect shot angle at a close distance. Anti-hunters like to complain that hunters take long shots or have an unfair advantage with long range rifles, but when a hunter sets himself up for a close shot at a good angle, they call that unsporting too.

Excellent argument SB!

I baited and shot a bear.. Lotsa of hard work. 4mile roundtrip hike. Heavy pack on the way in. I sat there 5 days after the season opener before I spotted the bear.
I have also filmed 2 different pair of sows with cubs. Pretty cool!
It may not have been to cool for the cubs if I was scoping the sow from say 300 yds. and the cubs are not visable from that range and I decidd to take the shot only to get there and see that there are cubs involved.
That scenerio is greatly minimized over bait.

So if you dump a bunch of hatchery feed into a hole several days in a row (chumming) it is more sporting than actually having to fish all the drifts trying to find the fish? Wouldn't dynamite be even more sporting then?

It is argued that it is unfair for certain groups to net salmon in their spawning rivers or in their feeding grounds.
It takes a skilled netter to position the net just right so that the salmon or steelhead swims right into it and the skilled netter can then bag his prize.
Hours of preparation and knowledge, not to mention risking life and limb in the process.
Nets are heavy.
Timing the run takes yrs of practice and patience.

We all know what happens when the salmon population is not controlled in this manner....
Competition for for prime redds brings them right into streams adjacent to our neighborhoods.

Killing them for fun using the most effective means possible is my right and I won't be denied!

My Daddy done it, his Daddy done it, and so will my young'uns.

You sound like you may have some experience with those practices?
Are they WDFW endorsed?

=============================


Looks to me your were raised with some very high standards.

There is no doubt you take nets out you will see increased returns. Just like you take the most effective predator MANAGEMENT tool away you see an increase as we have, which BTW threatens humans.

So whats your point Sherlock?

Crikey! Just install some frickin' goal posts in your yard and you won't see a damn cougar for miles!

I am your problem solver!

...either that, or organize a golf tournament with a strip club nearby. Bribe some skanky lookin' dancers to talk to the press, then order some room service!

Previously posted:
There is no doubt you take nets out you will see increased returns. Just like you take the most effective predator MANAGEMENT tool away you see an increase as we have, which BTW threatens humans.

So whats your point Sherlock?

*************************************
Shooting a big cat treed by hounds seems as sporting as a dupont spinner for native steelhead.
Eliminating a PROBLEM CAT using hounds is completely justifiable.
If shooting a big cat gives you a woody, track it and shoot it yourself.

THE END!

Let's go fishing!

So what your saying is you like paying for this service in the tune of 1.1 - 1.4 million a year and having it completed by the same individuals that previously were revenue producers for WDFW?


You make alot of sense! GFC

You know what you can do with your woody you referenced? ahh never mind!

Obviously you've never tried to track a cougar. It is all but impossible to spot and stalk one of these animals. Hounds are the ONLY effective method of tracking cougars.

Why is the use of dogs unsporting?? My lab sure thinks its sporting to track and point birds for me... not much more difficult of a shot than shooting a cat from a tree.

CWU: Obviously you've never tried to track a cougar. It is all but impossible to spot and stalk one of these animals. Hounds are the ONLY effective method of tracking cougars.

EXACTLY!
You want a trophy? WORK FOR IT!
How does a 25yd shot at a treed animal with no escape inflate your self-esteem?

CWU:
Why is the use of dogs unsporting?? My lab sure thinks its sporting to track and point birds for me... not much more difficult of a shot than shooting a cat from a tree.

If you're a 100% wing-shooter, why waste time and $ on an education. You should be on TNN schooling the 'billies at their own game.
Benelli demo team.
If I'm hunting behind your lab, that bird has a much better chance than a treed cat.
Do you tie the birds to a stake with a 25 yrd string and then shoot them?
And there are preserves with stocked pheasants that are a long way from earning their existence.
Not EVEN the same thing.
'My lab thinks....'
....I hope you think at a higher level than your lab....although they are pretty smart.

I'm getting tired of this post.
I didn't come here to make enemies.
We agree to disagree.
I wish you all the best of luck in your sporting endeavors.
GFC

Then there are ponds stocked with trout.

GFC,, you sure like your elite way but are really quick to condone anothers. It's quite obvious you lack any intimate knowledge of that practice except for some tainted video you have watched!

.

GFC,, you sure like your elite way but are really quick to condone anothers.

I guess I am CONDONED to a life of ignorance.

I won't waste much of my time on this, but I just can't believe the opinions of some on here. You guys sound like you're members of PETA. What I wonder is how can you stand the thought of hooking a fish and causing it pain and stress? Do you do that to make yourself feel more manly? Seriously, what are you guys doing on a hunting/fishing board such as this, if you think hunting is unethical?

JEFERSON Is THAT downrigger On Your On You r AVA TAR. fAIR give Me a Break . Rick. Former Redneck . Bearbaiter. Unethical. Hunter. Sure is a lot of anti's on this Board. Rick

That's What REALY pisses Me Off. They Have Comeback's Just Like P eta And other anti's .Rick

First, Benelli's are crap. If its not a double barrel, I won't shoot it.

Wing shooting isn't a very difficult sport and I tend to hit most of what my dog points. Not terribly uncommon for a good wingshooter to shoot most of what they shoot at. Doesn't merrit exceptional skill, just practice makes ya good!

There is little difference between wingshooting and hound hunting. The purpose, means, and outcome are all the same. If you're against one, you're against all sporting dogs.

Why is it I can make my case without personal attacks and you can't? Why don't you ponder that for a bit!

Please look in to predator hunting. "Work for it" implies that hound hunters sit in their trucks, which is off base. But the real meat of the issue is that we need to control the cougar population...You can't do that through spot and stalk. Right or wrong, the only way to do that is through hound hunting.

Well said CWUgirl.

The fact of the matter is we have too many cats and there is only one sure fire way to control them. HOUNDS. Why pay to have them get the cats that have already caused problems when we can have hound hunters pay to hunt. Hmmmm pay over a million dollars to control cats or make a bunch of money to control the cats.

Amazing how some people think their method of doing something is the only way. Flyfisheerman hate baitfisherman. Really whats the difference. OOOPS the fish engulfed the fly. Oh and he's just a little one guess I gotta kill him. Now when you tree a cat and its not a mature tom you walk. Not everything is killed.

I guess you've never chased dogs all night long in 2 feet of snow. Freezing your butt off praying you catch up to the dogs before you freeze to death. All in hopes that what they're chasing is the one you want. If you haven't tried it shut your pie hole cause you know nothing.

Simply an observation. I am on the board as a fishing fan, looking to learn and observe. By the way, the name is Northwest Fishing Board, not NW hunting. That aside, I understand the joy of the hunt, but the kill is another story. I enjoy reading the pompus recaps of those that stalk and kill. Here is a big clue. You have the latest in scope and kill technology. The poor sob animal in your sights is simply doing what they do. To take glee in your victory is weak minded and simple at best. By the fuk Peta and the other simpletons, but to call what you do sport, well I guess you didn't make the football team. Wait, I forgot, yo have to camp out, wait, and pack your kill out. I guess that means something....

Um.....the same can be said for fishermen!! Fishermen show off their kills with glee all the time. "To take glee in your victory is weak minded and simple at best." I guess fishermen didn't make the football team either!

Actually it is a little more "sporting". We don't have an advantage over nature, can't sit in the bushes from 2oo yards out and wait for the unsuspecting prey. I know this is personal preference, but the fact is in the hunt, the hunter has a distinct advantage.

Golfer, Obviously you know nothing about hunting. Technology? Hasn't changed in any significant way in at least 70 years. Sport? No, hunting is not a sport, did anybody say it was? Hunting is about killing animals, for food. May I ask where you get your meat? Or are you a vegetarian? Because if you do eat meat, you are quite the hypocrit, to be putting down hunters, who at least have the balls to go out and kill and butcher our own meat, instead of paying others to do it for us. Do you seriously believe it is ok to kill a fish? You know fish have feelings too, don't you? I have a suggestion...why don't you stick to subjects you at least have a little basic knowledge of? I see you're from Issaquah, that explains part of your ingorance. I have an aunt who lives there, she is anti-hunting also, and she grew up with a family of hunters, and they lived on deer meat! Seems like Issaquah is headquarters for anti-anything & everything.

Golfer,,

Is that fact or your opinion? Give me a break! Your way is OK but mine isn't.

You would fit in well with the AR crowd! Go and force your opinion down my throat with another ill-thought intiative!

Glowball, I see you have had the opportunity to experience a hound hunt. Half these boys would give up after a few hours in the snow, knowing it will probabally go another 4 hours. They would probablly puke at the site of having to stitch up a hound wound.
They have no clue do they?

HairyApe,
You know he won't tell the truth to your questions
I prefer to be a predator and provide meat for my table but unfortunantly this day and age I am forced to be a scavenger at Albertsons

Golfer,
Oh..so it's ok for you to sit with your bait in the water where the unsuspecting fish can't see you, and wait until that poor innocent fish gets hungry and decides to eat that bait? If you are so against any kind of "technology" why don't you jump in the water with the fish and catch them with your bare hands? Don't you think that would be more sporting? I am trying to be nice, but you truly are an ignorant idiot. Join PETA, that is where you belong.

Does cougar taste that good? Doesnt seem like there would be much meat on one. If all thats true than it would be purely sport, because i could think of alot cheaper way to feed a family than raising dogs just to hunt cougar. Just speculating is all. As far as fishing for me and all the gear and the boat its my hobby, half sport and half for the meat. I likin fishing to using a predator call for instance. You put out an inticer and the rest is up to the game as to whether it responds or not.How about we say instead of "sport" we just call it "fun" isnt that what its suppose to be about anyways?

I'm a bird hunter. Anything over about 45 yards for me is out of range. And I defintely do not have distinct advantage. The birds are faster than me, hear far better than me, and its pretty common that they outsmart me! I even have a dog and these birds still get away more than they end up in my vest.

When I'm fly fishing, sometimes I have to crawl on my belly to sight cast to unsuspecting trout. How is that more sporting than hunting?

The hound hunters I have talked to have always said that they prefer cougar meat over anything else, and I would think you would get a good amount of meat from a large cougar. But even if the meat wasn't good, that's not the point. I don't think anybody would hunt cougars for the meat, it just would not be worthwhile. But cougar populations need to be controlled, and some guys love hunting with hounds, and they are good at it, why not let them do it? Let them buy a hunting license and tag from the state, so they can control the cougar population, rather than the state hiring these same guys to do the same thing, because it is now illegal. For you guys who think hound hunting is not ethical, just realize it is being done anyway, but your taxes are paying for it.

Kinda tastes like,,, ohh better not go there

Actually cougar meat is very paletable and I have enjoyed it.

I have been trying to say that but these boys just dont seem to understand that. I guess being close minded also constitutes a thick skull
Someone said this in another post and it rings true here,, What's Red Foremans favorite saying? Something like "You Dumbas s"

Just for the record i voted against the ban on the use of dogs, for i thought the WDFW could manage the cougar population better through tag issuance. I would be curious as to learn the harvest of the year 2000 of 200+ cougars and then what the harvest of the last full season using dogs was. But i also do not believe that the cougar population in my part of the state has exploded like some would like to believe. I am not speaking for the whole state, just S.W WA. However that dosent mean that it couldnt become a problem in the future, its just one incident(not an attack more like a probe) dosent prove anything as a population indicator. It seems to be more of a problem in the state of Oregon more so than Washington.I do know that a majority of the cougar harvest occur east of the mountains, perhaps they are experiecing a steeper climb in numbers of cougar? Heck ill bet the guy at Kalama was just tryin to scare people off his honey hole and made it all up so he'd have the whole river to himself. You were gonna say chicken werent you? Here kitty kitty

From what I can tell by looking at the harvest reports I have, in 1996 there was 178 cougars killed.

In 2001 there was 300 cougars killed. Of course, that is with a total of 56,482 cougar tags sold. In 1996, it looks like the number of tags sold was only around 200 or so.

The problem is that the people who are anti-hunting have never experienced a hunt. They can't even stay on topic.

I don't tell you where to get your groceries. Don't tell me where to get mine.

I am by no means anti hunting. I am anti bear baiting and anti leg hold trapping. I also don't feel the cougar population is by any means out of control. You aren't doing me any favors by hunting and killing them. In fact I prefer dangerous animals out there weeding out the gene pool.
Here's a resolution to this thread. If the WDFW is paying people to control the population via means that you consider fun , sporting and for the good of man kind then get a job with the WDFW. You'll get paid to do what you like to do.

Exactly!


I'll try and answer some of your questions though the data I have compiled stops at 1998, thats when I kinda stopped fighting the fight. I do have some graphs that go back to the 30's prior to the bounty days.
I have in front of me a state wildlife complaint sheet that is broke down into individual state counties for both bear and cougar. I have it from prior the ban and up to 1998. Also in hand is a permit harvest summary for cougars from 1987-1995 (and partial data for 1996)

Top five counties for cougar incidents
1995

Pierce..... 30
Stevens.. 28
King........ 21
Okanogan 20
Ferry....... 17

1998

Spokane.. 105 (1995=7) major increase
King......... 95
Stevens... 88
Pierce...... 71
Snohomish 71 (1995=11) major increase
===============================

1987

170 permits 60 cougars harvested

1995

446 permits 283 cougars harvested

here is an interesting side note at the bottom of this page I am looking at
It reads like this,

* The 1994 and 1995 permit totals and hunter success rates do not include "boot only" cougar hunting activity. Despite 811 boot only permits being available. only 365 were purchased and 121 people actually hunted cougar without hounds. Boot hunters killed a total of 3 cougar in 1994 and 1995.

Let me know if there is anything else. If you want specific counties for comparision let me know.
Granted these are only compliants but as stated prior I believe them to be good data on population status. (no fuzzy math here )

Like stealhead, I am not anti hunting and have nothing to do or back PETA. I choose not to hunt, but that doesn't mean I look down on hunters. In this case, it just doesn't strike me as a sporting way to hunt. I certainly understand the sensatitity that hunters feel that their rights are being threatened, just as I do with the extremist views of Washington trout as to the elimination of chinook hatcheries. No offense intended guys!

Watch out here comes an opinion, it's mine and nobody elses, so please nobody get their panties in a knot!

I would agree that your not anti-hunting if you stated that you don't agree with those methods but understand they are viable and valubale managment practices but you didn't you stated you are ANTI!
In my book and many others book you are ANTI-Hunting..

Stradling the fence is dangerous!

I may have been a little harsh. I don't condemn hunters, as many friends choose to do so. As you can tell, in my non- fence straddleing position, I choose not to. By the way the meat I eat is from farm raised animals. Not that they have a great life but it is in their contract.

Driftboater, you may call me a fence stander if you will. I call it generating interesting discussion and causing people to critically evaluate their ethics. My intent to not to cast a negative aspersion. I would admit my first post may have seemed to be more negative.

Jeff e,,

I think the dialogue we had was very civil.
I believe you see a different perspective from the other side, though you might "personnally" not agree with it and wouldn't pursue a hound hunting or baiting endeavor. I hope that you see it as a viable, practical and very much needed managment tool our WDFW needs to utilize.

I agree you are very entitled to your opinion as I am to mine but the backers of these two intiatives that thought the same way you do, Forced their opinion through lies and deciet down my throat and the rest of the state. Now causing a financial burden on our already stressed WDFW budget.

Just does not make much sense to me but then again I am labled just a DA "billie" that shoudn't know no better.

Some time I would like "fence standers" to experience and witness first hand what is involved in a hound hunt or a trapline, or a baitstand.
If interested, this upcoming winter I may be able to arrange a hound hunt (video documented professionally) and I think having someone with no knowledge of what a hound hunt entails and someone that personally believes it's not "sporting" to come along and witness.
Would you be interested in something like this?

Driftboater, that sounds like an interesting and forthright opportunity for the right person who has the time. I doubt that I would be able to find the time to do that. I think you and other's have demonstrated a more thoughtful approach than what was presented during the initiative process several years ago.

There's a contract that says that food animals have to lead that life??

Well... I guess I prefer to eat animals which have not had to live in their own crap in a feed lot for their lives, pumped full of hormones, antibiotics, and vaccines. Making food animals live in misery is far more inhumane, in my opinion, than killing a wild animal which has been able to live a natural life.

Animals should be treated with respect, even those we eat.

CWU Girl - With all due respect, there are over 6 billion human inhabitants living on the earth today. How long ya figure the quail and deer populations would last if everyone only ate what they went out and killed?

Neither side is changing the other's mind in this discussion, and I highly doubt that they ever will. Let's agree to disagree and call it good!

I have yet to hear any argument as to why I should side with you on this issue. All I have heard is that its considered to be not "sporting"
I have, along with others, presented stats, WDFW recomendations and expendatures about hounding, trapping, baiting.

What have you presented ? an opinion? woohoo!
Where's ya facts? No need to answer that loaded question, cause I know where they are. I have been asking that question since 1995 and have yet to get a logical answer. I even debated this on the "buzz" radio station. I asked a simple question about the Black Bear EIS guess what none of those folks even had taken the time to educate themselves with it? Needless to say I had alot of fun with that live conversation..

Most of those 6 billion inhabitants do not consume meat like we do in the United States, so your point is lost. We have a cultural bias towards eating it. If the rest of the world ate farm raised meat like we do, I'd hate to know what the cost to the environment would be as well as the human cost (meat is more expensive both in dollars and energy to produce).

We have the ability to treat our food animals well and do not. That is a crime against nature.

There have been many thoughtful responses over the last day or two and I would like to clear the air over a few of mine.....
First, apologies for any perceived personal attacks.
I began hunting in the midwest at the age of 6. That's right 6 yrs old. 20ga side by side shooting rabbits, squirrels and pheasants-(direct decendants of the original euro strain introduced over 100 yrs ago, not feedlot birds with 6in tails)
I chose not to shoot waterfowl when I learned that geese and ducks mate for life. Seemed to me at an early age that there was an ethical issue killing the mate of a committed relationship, even if the genus is other than ours.
I attended one hound hunt, this for raccoons. A tradition in my neck of the woods. A right of passage for the young men (chauvinism was a little more accepted then). Shooting a 'coon out of a tree after chasing hounds for miles in the dark seemed like target practice. Rarely were they dead when they hit the ground. A few really tore up the dogs. It was not real pleasant from my perspective.
I have hunted from a very early age.
I have fished from a very early age.
I choose to engage in activities I feel are sporting.
I practice catch and release more often than you might imagine.
I have no need for pictures of dead animals.
I am satisfied to buy my meat from Costco, where the animals were on a one-way trip from the start, never having to earn a living and fight for existence.
I respect the animals that do scratch out a living and fight for their survival.
Am I a PETA member? No.
I am a hunter/fisherman/sportsman with a moral and ethical compass that sometimes points in the opposite direction of other hunter/fisherman/sportsman.
I do believe in the ethical treatment of animals whether it is preservation or a humane kill.
Am I an Elitist Snob? Maybe.
Am I going to back down from my point of view? Only if you can prove me wrong.
Let's move on.

Driftboater - I'm NOT asking you to side with me anymore, and I AM the guy who posted links to FACTS on the subject straight from WDFW.

So, let me ask this: You speak english right? Do you not understand this:

???

If not, let me put it another way:

You, CWU, Hairy Ape, bearmanric etc... believe what you believe. Those that have offered an opposing viewpoint believe what they believe. Let's just respect that fact and move on!

CWUgirl - We could go round and round all day playing this semantics game. How 'bout we do what I suggested above?

goforchrome, actually the first pheasants came from China and they were first introduced in Oregon, which is where all following transplants originated from.

Europeans are known for their game farms. Today almost all british pheasant hunting are of caged birds.

4Salt,,
Just stating facts, I have yet to hear an argument from your side.

GFC,,
Do you really think geese and ducks mate for life?
I believe that geese will mate for life but given the opportunity they will find a new mate. Dcuks will just flat out whore around. Go out to your local pond and you will watch a waterfowl orgy with multiple partners..

I am not trying to change any of your minds but just presenting hard facts that show how certain practices are needed managment tools within our WDFW, besides your personal opinions.
If you do not see that they are needed managment tools, so be it. With the facts presented I have a really hard time understanding how someone cannot see they are viable and needed. If this is the case what would your funding ideas be? I am tired of having to pay those predator managment costs.

There are many practices and activities that I do not particularily agree with but my views do not mean they are wrong or not needed.

Thats the difference, I am not going to condone you for conducting that practice why do you condone me for my practices?

BTW,,

It may seem that I waste alot of time argueing/debating with you guys and I guess that I may, atleast thats what my wife says

The real winners in this and the ones I am targeting, are the ones reading these threads, absorbing data and facts that will hopefully help them to make informed decisions at their next opportunity, regardless of their personnal views.

Which may not be that far away

I hunt cause I think its fun! The meat is a bonus!

I like the prep, the anticipation , the bs, the comraderie, and most of all the kill! The bigger the better! (220 lbr makes ya more macho than the ones who only got 195 lbr)

Found out when I was about 7 it was more fun to shoot a tweety-bird than a tin-can with my B-B gun. Old man cured me of that though!

I've hunted behind hounds and it's a blast! We were not tryin to thin the cats out, we were havin a good time.

I've shot bear behind hounds too. It's not as much fun but it's productive, and you get to kill something. I enjoy it more than baitin em.

For me, I'd love to be able to stalk a cat and kill it with a jack-knife, or dive into salmonberry patch an kill a Bar with a Bowie knife. I aint that good! And I'd just be doin it to bs about it later.

All of the stuff is fun, even the unsuccessful trips (no kill)

I've caught fish with my hands, with spears, arrows, nets, flies, worms , eggs, spinners, hoochies,flossed em. snagged em,even shot a couple, same deal, FUN!

I've gotten a lot older, and a little wiser, I quit doin a lot of the stuff 20 yrs ago.

Hounds in the woods?, Hell Yes! Bait Bears? if thats your thing, Hell Yes!

I use a hook and line(legal setup) now. And it's a lot more fun.

I don't see the logic in stopping a practice that is fun and doesn't threaten the existence of a resource!

It is legal to spear undersized ling-cod and once you get the first one they come from everywhere to feed on the kill, (real turkey shoot then) I don't hear anybody gripen bout that!

If it doesn't threaten the resource, why do you care how somebodyelse does it? Catch n release has got to be as barbaric as it gets, (next to bow hunting). They are both fun.

If you want to kill a poor defenseless insect so you can tie a flie that matches the hatch so you can hook a fish, put it through a life threatening experience, instill who knows how much trauma to his psychi, run it till it can't resist anymore, take a pic. of it, then release it, and brag about it, it's fine with me!

Just don't get too pumped up about your moral and ethical superiority! Have fun!



herm

Well I have been watching this conversation for a few days and I think our friends with problems concerning certain techniques in hunting needs at least a three hour dose of Bonanza and most importantly a trip to the local slaughter house. Fisherman argue about snaggers, flossers, poachers, native handling, and anti- bait guys vs. fly fisherman, and hunters argue about certain season lengths and areas, bow vs. muzzle loader vs. modern rifle, and tons of other stuff. Take a step back and notice were all in the same boat pretty darn much, no one is more elite than the other. We both hopefully share a passion and a natural Ted Nugion high of hooking up with nature and making beautiful love via the means of hunting, and fisging. Yeah there are bad apples out there who drag gill nets through the river at 3 in the morning and morons who go to feeding stations and kill massive numbers of deer and elk, but that is just a few and wer not all like that and I seem to think we might be projecting our frustration concerning them and ultra radical groups who oppose any kind of hunting or fishing onto each other and not realizing the root of our angst. That cougar on the most awesome river on the universe has always been there and will always be there, so occurrances like the past will continue. To be pissed at the cougar is like being irate at snow and melting it everywhere it is seen just because a skier or snow mobiler was killed or injured in an avalanche. We are in their territory and that is that. The attacks in the developments well hey that is just our fault and we are the guilty party there. In terms of the degredation on a huter because they use dogs, give it a rest. Hunting is hunting and those dogs nor hunters arived on this beautiful planet with the knwoledge and skill to hunt any animal in that technique. ( Oldy but goody "their are people starving in ethiopia") I feel lucky too be able to post my opinion on such a non issue type of thing in the wholistic view of life on this planet. Tight lines, and filled freezers.

JP,,
I am glad you chimed in! I hope that I did not come across in this discussion as someone that is pissed at the cougar? I have the utmost respect for them and their place. I am pissed at the fact we are mandated to manage them in a non-effective way that is financial burden..

GFC,

You got me thinking about your statement on waterfowl and their mating practices.
Here is a link from the USDA just in case you didn't believe my earlier off the cuff remark.
http://www.fs.fed.us/r10/educators/radio_shows/waterfowl_family.html

So do ya think the theory of sterio typing, media manipulating may have played a part in your incorrect conclusion about waterfowl? Too many Disney shows?

I am glad there are a few still out there that do not believe everything they see and hear as fact but instead try to educate themslves.

Ya wanna go sit in a blind next year?

DB and CWU Girl,
Just so you don't think I'm too pompous and arrogant to admit when I'm wrong, I did research both corrections.
In re ring-necked pheasant origins, I stand corrected. They did originate in China and were introduced in Oregon, per CWU

In re geese AND ducks mating for life, DB's link did correct the inference that ducks do. It does state clearly that swans and geese do mate for life. I guess you gotta kill both if you're gonna do it right. I'm not that good of a shot and don't care to partake.
You both are good resources of info. That is understood.
There are others who are also technically accurate but have a difference of opinion on what they feel is sporting.
Good job on the research.

This thread is so long one more post can't hurt that much.

Driftboater,

You're entitled to your opinions, and generally keep them separate from your facts. However, you describe hounds and bait as viable and needed management for cougar and bear. I agree that the hound and bait alternative may be viable, but "needed" is a personal value term, like an opinion. It seems to me that you believe it's needed because otherwise we have to pay someone to kill problem cougars. Actually, it's a social choice, and the public apparently has choosen to disallow the general use of hounds to hunt cougar, but allows (altho this wasn't part of the public initiative decision as I recall) hounds for ridding problem cougars, even if it costs extra money. An equally valid social choice would be for WDFW to do nothing about cougar complaints, simply saying they were being responsive to the initiative, and allowing those who are pestered by cougars to take care of the situation themselves - as long as they didn't use hounds.

I'm just pickin' on ya' a little bit because you made quite a deal about your and others facts and opinions. Just wanted to let you know that one of your "facts" is an opinion.

All in all, this has been an interesting thread because of the way it has illustrated differing views of the sporting ethic. Bait for bears is non-sporting, yet bait for fishing is sporting. Hmmm, I like that one. And if it weren't for the scarcity of fish, I suppose we could have sport gill-netting and dupont spinner seasons on the rivers, since some people, or cultures, would no doubt consider those activities as having sporting value (how long do you hold the lit fuse before tossing the dynamite into the head of a pool? Gutsy, huh?). It looks like society, thru its fish and wildlife agencies, or thru initiatives, decides what is sporting, and therefore permissible. And apparently those values can change over time, so that an act that formerly was sporting and allowed, isn't any longer.

Sincerely,

Salmo g.

Ok Ok ,, another reply from me..

First I apploud your humbleness GFC I really respect that and at times can use some humble pie.. You are still welcome to experience a waterfowl hunt with me..

Salmo,

Allright I am not always perfect Sometime my context gets skewed when I type and what I am thinking and what comes out on the finger tips differs..

Well,, WDFW stated thats its needed. Matter of fact I listened to recently listened to a couple of wildlife officials testify in front of a House Committe how they support trapping. I can find some quotes that state it is a needed tool (hounding etc.)
Our legislature deemed it as a "needed managment tool" thus allowing depredation hunting.

You eluded to it as a social choice and society made the decision, Correct! but did society get the opportunity to view it on a level playing field and understand the ramifications that would happen after this passed? NO! Whos fault? Mine, yours and every other person that enjoys partaking in consumptive use.
There were some very dirty, decietfull and manipulating going on during both campaigns. This last time during I-713 they got caught for breaking certain rules and recieved fines levied from the AG

My opinion is we would have won both campaigns given we had the financial backing as they did. We could have combated their lies with facts and truths, unfortunantly we didn't. Fishing and Hunting news only ran one article during both fights. One would think that they would have a vested intrest in protecting consumptive use.
Not many other Organizations stepped up to the plate. We had Washington Trout stepp up to the oppositions plate but there wasnt any unified rallying from the various user groups..

This is more than enough from me. I got a house that is supposed to be painted before the wife gets home, so I better get off my ample posterior and get something done!

BTW, I dont mind being picked on, I dish it out I better be able to take it Sometimes my panties do get knotted up but I will never admit it

Hmmm, time for me to chime in on this one?

This thread has evolved into something with a life of its own. Hunting in any form that is not detrimental to the general population of wildlife being hunted is a VIABLE form. Same thing goes with fishing.

Now for the Chicken Little statement... yes, the sky is falling, yes the AR groups are out there to take away everything you hold dear. Australia has lost waterfowling because the AR movement pushed hard for it, not because of general public sentiment.

Yes the AR groups have the backing of the general populace in ballot issues. Is it because they are stronger? Because they are smarter? Because they are right?

NO! again I say NO! What they are is organized, what they have is cohesion within the mass. What they have is a unified voice to stand on a unified platform and spout their idiocy, sentiment, and misinformation!

Every single person posting to this or reading this thread has a strong opinion regarding our fish and wildlife... but do all of you belong to a group dedicated to retaining your heritage? If so, are you active within that organization? Do you volunteer your time, or do you just send your $15-$45 per year and forget it until the renewal comes in the mail?

*Break out the guns here folks and get ready to blast me for this one....*

I am ashamed of the fishing and hunting population. The vast majority, those the public sees, are nothing more than a bunch of coat-tail riding slackers! They believe that someone else does the fighting. They believe there is nothing they can do because they haven't tried. They believe the propaganda that is thrown around the media. They believe that drivel and trash that is handed them by the AR groups. They are the same ones that voted to remove trapping because that picture of the kitty in the trap moved them. They are the ones that voted to remove baiting because, "I believe hunting should be done through stalking and tracking." They are the ones that removed hound hunting for the same reasons... or because they bought into the clap-trap of "fair-chase" and "ethics."

Are you one of these people? Are you willing to give your heritage away one piece at a time because it is something you don't do, so why should you support it? Have you read anything from the PETA site? Have you looked at the crap they are throwing at our children? Have you read their work up on "How to become an activist."? Do you realize that it isn't just the tofu eating, Jesus sneaker wearing, hemp coat making, dreadlocked crowd that is wanting to take this away from you?

Really, do you understand that? Do you understand that the only people powerful enough to take what you love away from you are....... YOURSELVES?!?!

1/6 of WA citizens are sportsmen/women. We spend more than the entire apple crop of this state. We spend more than the entire commercial fishing crop of this state. We employ more people than Microsoft. But we have no clout. Because those that I am ashamed to call my brethren do nothing but sit on their laurels and hope for the best. Even worse, they believe the AR groups are not out for what they do.

Wake up people. driftboater is pissed at these people for a reason. bearmanric hates them for a reason.

By everything that you love, you should to! Or are you perfectly happy having to whisper the discussions of your dream hunt while in public places or at the water cooler?

Fight for what you love, you will find your opinion matters, your voice can be heard, your vote does count. 1/6 of WA citizens is a strong force... too bad 90% of that force would rather grab another beer than write a letter

Robert J.

Standing Ovation RJ! Glad you chimed in!

Robert J said:

"Yes the AR groups have the backing of the general populace in ballot issues. Is it because they are stronger? Because they are smarter? Because they are right?

NO! again I say NO! What they are is organized, what they have is cohesion within the mass. What they have is a unified voice to stand on a unified platform and spout their idiocy, sentiment, and misinformation! "


Here's what it means to be in America - if you change the AR to NRA, your arguement begins to make perfect sense to me. Now there are a few ways to look at this.

1. I am absolutely wrong, a pinko wacko that deserves to live in Canada and pay high taxes the rest of my life.

2. I am completely right, a rational man who understands that only criminals commit felonies with guns, but also know that up until the moment he pulled the trigger, David Brame was not a criminal.

3. We live in a society where the majority prevails, sometimes I like what the majority does, sometimes I don't.

And that's what it means to live in America.

I just can't stay off of this post....
I wouldn't exactly say 'David Brame was not a criminal until he pulled the trigger'.
A rapist without a conviction on his record would likely be more accurate.
If she was my sister, he wouldve been wearing a toetag a long time ago.
No flames on this one, please.

PS...lifetime member of NRA, been shooting indoor match since I was 8 yrs old.

Actually we do not live in a society where the majority prevail, that is a pipe dream. We live in a society where the organized minority prevail, to include well funded special interest groups. If you throw in power monger politicians that are in office many times because of these groups, you have policy being set by, in some cases, the minority. Society in general is filied with people who don't think they make can make a difference, the ones that do, organize, raise money, put people in office, and in the end, help make policy. Is there a better system? No. But to think that the majority is making decisions on issues like this is not really true. Perhaps some of the leaders of this board are in a position to rally the troops in a way that counters the PETA crap.

Golfer hit it on the head.

The fallicy that this country is run on the "majority" has been promoted in K-12 and post grad studies for far too long. They really need to teach classes not on theory but on the way it really works.

If you look at the case of I-713 you find that 54% of the populace voted to eliminate trapping in this state. Due mainly on the antics, support, and media hype from Lisa Wathne of the HSUS. 54% of the voters in WA said that trapping should be banned.... why?

Do any of you honestly believe that 54% of the citizens believe trapping is cruel? Do you think they believed this prior to the television campaign waged by the HSUS? Did you believe it was cruel prior to seeing that kitty in the trap? Did you honestly think your children were in danger of errant traps prior to the HSUS telling you they were (I am talking legally set traplines that are marked as required by law)? Do any of you know someone that was caught in a legally set trap that was marked with the trapline owners name, address, and telephone number? Do you know someone that knows someone that knows someone that was caught? I would venture that the answer would be "No."

So now we have people putting out illegal traps (yes there were some before but they were few and far between) that have no identification, no means of contacting the owner, no recourse to take in case the unspeakable happens.

This all happened because of the "majority" of this state? Ummm, NOPE! It happened because an animal rights group had practice doing this in other states and decided the west coast was the front line in this battle. This animal rights group is dedicated to the elimination of consumptive use sports in all fashion. This animal rights group was organized and made a spearhead movement based on rhetoric and sentiment to get the people to vote the issues based on what the last thing they heard was, not on scientific fact or statistical analysis. However, this animal rights group does not consist of 1/6 of WA population.

If you still believe that the misinformed and lied to 54% of the populace voted as the "majority" then I ask you this..... Would they have even voted on the ballot issue if the HSUS hadn't put on a media blitz? Better yet, would it have even made it to ballot if the HSUS hadn't pushed it?

I don't know about you, but when a national organization tells me what to do in my own state and lies to the citizens to ensure it is being done... I don't call it "majority" I call it time to stand and fight, to expose these people for the world to see.

I am not going to infer that the elimination of trapping had anything to do with the cougar sighting this thread was originally about. I will let you draw your own conclusion there. But in case you were wondering, there is no way that more tags can be filled and still be able to see more of these cats in the wild. Unless, just maybe, it seems to make a bit of sense, there is an increase in population. For whatever reason, the population of these cats has increased over the last few years and we have lost two viable means of hunting them (hounds and traps). But then again, let the numbers speak for themselves.... more cats now means more tags filled... logically this would mean the population is stabilizing or decreasing slightly with firearms hunting, but somehow we seem to be seeing more and more of them each year. Funny how all this started hitting the media after eliminating trapping and hounding... but they probably had little impact on cats to begin with (?). I'll let you reason it out for yourself.

Robert J.

I've never heard of trapping cougars. Man, that would take a hell of a big trap, and a big chain too, to keep that big kitty there. Did they really trap cougars before leg-hold traps were banned?

As far as I know it was an extremely rare occurence prior to 713. But at least one person I have talked to used to attempt to trap them... 34 years and only got 1. Not good odds and I probably shouldn't have included it in the above post, but it's there anyway

Robert J.

This post has gotten way off the topic. And way out of hand. Anyways just a thought of mine. I dont believe in hunting with hounds. And If you think about it baiting bear is similar to fishing. So if your against feeding bear you should not fish. You set out bait to bring in bear and then shoot them. What do you use to catch fish?? You use bait right. Im an avid hunter and fisherman. First of all in Southwest Washington there are not a ton of cougars. How often does a hunter see a cougar? How often does one get attacked? Did the guy on the Kalama get attacked or did he just see a cougar. Did he get killed? think about these questions and that may answer a few questions.

Just like our ballot box biology has in this state!

SPJ,,
You mentioned that you do not agree about hunting with hounds. Do you agree that it is a viable management tool that is "needed" by our WDFW ?
Which inturn allows our department to impliment best management practices.

If I'd seen a springer walkin up the bank I might of pounced on it too!!!! <img border="0" alt="[eat]" title="" src="graemlins/eat.gif" /> It must have looked very odd and irresistable for the kitty.
Seriously, interesting posts.

hey globall ---are you saying that wolves did not prey upon cougars? the misinformation on our wildlife is incredible. sorry pal the wolves curbed the cougar population and the bear population.

hey bear man ric- is it hard to type without opposable thumbs

hey driftboater---man are you a crybaby when it comes to the voters of washington. if you dont like how we vote... get out of our state!!!!

Chappy, your seeming a little fiesty today! did somebody slip sumpin into your green tea this mornin or was it fermented tofu?

Thanks for giving me a great laugh! I always enjoy your input

Yes I am saying that. Show me some data of where there were large numbers of wolves up until 1996 when the cougar numbers began climbing. I guess in your world that would be when the wolves just up and dissappeared. Probably U.F.O.s came down and took them all away from our state to try and do a reintroduction on Pluto. I tell you if I was a stoner I'd be your best friend.

Glowball,

If he could just show us something.. I think he must still be working on the bunk tea overdose from earlier...

Sigh... I thought this topic was done, but...

Wolves do not, ever, prey on cougars or bears. They will opportunistically kill cougar cubs if they come upon them, but not for food, just the elemination of a competitor. Its nearly impossible for bear cubs to be killed by wolves since they are never out of the sight of their mothers.

Predators control eachothers populations through competition. Since they all eat from the same food bowl (other than black bears who are not primarily eaters of big game), the number of predators will drop according to how many prey animals are available. Or individuals will simply expand their territories to fill their bellies.

Since wolves require expansive territories in which to roam, in most areas they would be a liability and cause more issues than the cougars.

Lastly, Chappy... Could you please try to make your points without name calling? They really only make you look bad.

Let the cougar live. Heck, lets put more cougers in the area to keep people from fishing the area. I'm not scared of a cougar so I openly welcome fishing right next to them. At the same time, we should ban people from carrying guns on the river. I wonder how many "fishermen" would still be hardcore fishing?

Matt

Kaari, I agree with that name calling bit! Only look at your own people as well... Get driftboater to show some intelligence as well!

I actually JUST got back from the Washington Carnivores meeting today. Kaari is dead right. Wolves do NOT attack cougars, dogs, or bears for food. They attack them only for territorial reasons.

Chappy, I'd like to see some wolves to. There ARE wolves in Washington, just as there ARE grizzly bears in Washington. You just have to look for them I guess. But lower level name calling and using hardly any real evidence in your posts doesnt help our cause, or find a solution to allow wolves into the ecosystem. Not to say driftboater is any better man, I'm just saying if you want to prove them wrong, have some class yo!

Curtis

Chappy. Since You Like Wolve's So Much. Guess Who My Neighbor is Wolfhavin Inc. You Should Come Down This Weekend. They Have Two Red Wolve's. it's Only $35.00 too See Them . " BITE ME " Rick

Ladies and gentlemen, I've provided you with exhibit A in my argument that wildlife management decisions should be handled by biologists, not voters who know nothing about wildlife.

Amen stilly.

I get a kick out of people that cary side arms under the pretense that they have them to protect them from cougar attack.If a cougar decides it is going to protect there territory and attack you,chances are you would accidentally shoot your self trying to get the weapon out in defense.I have ran into several over the years and have had one stalk me,even growling at me from within the cover of the woods.Not in any of these situations would a gun been any good.We should be very greatful that cougs do not eat people!

Chappy,
I do have to laugh at your attempts to understand mother nature.I will say this though,cougs do not like dogs.My lab,and blue healer flushed a gigantic coug on the upper south fork of the skoke.This animal was making over twenty foot strides running from my girls.When it got to the trees on the edge of the river flat,it did not stay on the ground but entered the woods leaping through the trees.Kind of like a 250 lb pin ball.It left me shaking like a leaf and in total awe.I could put my hands inside of its prints with lots of room to spare.That animal could of kiled my girls without trying but instead chose to hit the hills.

Ahh shucks Curtis do you have some unresolved resentments towards me? or did some of Enumclaw's finest start paying a little more attention to ya

Didnt we go through this on another thread in the hunting forum? My attempt to write in Enumclaw ebonic for you didnt work? I was hopeing that may help you to comprehend things a little bit better.
I'll keep trying but I fear you have been taking to many sips on ol' Chappys rotten tea jug.

Hang in there Curtis, there still may be hope for ya!

I personally know a guy who was laying down and glassing a canyon for elk near Randle. He sensed something behind him and saw a cougar 10-15 yards away crouched and ready to pounce him. He calmly swung his rifle on him and plugged him dead. So every scenario is different and i would take my chances with a firearm and a knife.

ItiLceo:

Get off on your anti gun kick some where else.
Or get your local Bremalow off your face so you can
Get some O2 and think strait. What is your Problem with packing?
Did you piss off the wrong person and get to meet one? (A gun that is)

axia spansa or whatever.

I doubt you would say that too my face and would be willing to find out


computer tough guys crack me up,I really love the ones that are afraid to fill out there bios. :p


I am the farthest thing from anti gun as you will ever meet.I love to shoot and never said there was anything wrong with packing.I have though encountered 5 cougs up close and can't help ut walk away with the feeling that even if I was packing it would of done me little good thats all.

hers one for you

Racer dan
I am glad he was able to feel the cat behind him,and had his weapon ready it may of saved his life!!

I believe that most fishermen packing a gun,would find it a little more complicated to get to there weapon.I walked up on the last cat and was not twenty feet away from her.As we stared at eachother deciding what to do i was trying to get my camera out of a vest pocket and couldn't before she bolted.I have pics on my puter of her claw prints in the sand,where she wheeled and made off,but no pics of her.She has a kitten now at least she did last fall by the prints I saw in the same spot.


My encounters have happened in pretty dense country that that is more to there advantage than mine.

iticleo:
Aix sponsa: Wood Duck

jimwright_1@netzero
I'll Meet ya Were?
but I dont think BOB
Would care for us doing this on his bord.
so Email me Sorry Bob But not turnin this down.

I doubt it. He was just glad hed gotten a cougar.Besides, when was the last time a cougar has killed a full grown adult male in the state of Washington?

Like I said,we should be glad that cougars do not eat people!!


When I was a kid I worked at a bourding ranch for horses over in the Nile comunity outside of Natches.Got a call around midnight saying that the horses were going nuts in one of the three padocks on the ranch.I hopped in the van and raced down there with only a flashlight,we still had no power in that barn which also was used to store alfafa during the winter.I got there and sure enough the horses were going nuts.I went walking in trying to figure out what the f###,when from atop the hay loft come the MEOW of my life time.I froze as all the hair on my body stood straight up!I never saw it but heard it making its way up the hill.

but I dont think BOB would care for us doing this on his bord. so Email me Sorry Bob But not turnin this down

Where is Judge Judy when you really need her?

Enough Cougar talk...hows the Kalama fishin??

Maybe at the next big fishin we could rent a couple of those sumo outfits and let some of these folks work some of this stuff out

sumo outfits

Naked paint ball. We'll see who the real men are.....

Work's For Me .I Get Chappy First .Rick

for all the people agahst at my comments on wolves curbing the populations of other predators....sorry folks its true. the wolf by its pack nature was an apex predator on the level of the grizzly bear. they can eat cougar and bear young. even a mother bear could not protect more than one cub from a whole pack of wolves. thats one of the draw backs to the yellowstone re-introduction is that the re-introd wolves are young and agro and have killed off much of the parks coyote population.


i am not saying that a lone wolf will attack a cougar or bear at all. in fact a cougar killed one of the re-intro'd mexican wolves in arizona two years ago.

the problem with wolves and humans is that they are so much alike. most wolf researchers come to the conclusion that humans, subconciously are envious of wolves. that they are smart and caring and still live in contact and balance with nature.....we humans are more and more being forced to live false and unfulfilling lives working at jobs to produce junk.....thats why we are addicted to things like fishing...even if too release the fish..... cuz we desire to be in contact with the wild world, and to live as we are meant to


isnt this all getting a bit carried away... cats will like fish with or without hound hunting. we are so out of balanced with nature that a cat wanting a fish scares us. and we are the fishermen who are out in nature. if i see a cougar it is a great day.

sorry if i pissed every one off by calling driftboater a crybaby but a dozen posts blaming animal rights activists for everything is a little much. environmentalists are doing more to protect our fisheries than any sportfishing group on this planet.

Chappy, Chappy, Chappy.
Thanks again for the good laugh.

Once again you spout off about the wolves being the reason cougars numbers are growing, but as usual you give us no evidence of you personal accusations.

By looking at the time you posted I'm going to ass u me that you were drinking. So do me a favor and next time you begin to type on the ol keyboard STOP and think before you type. Glowball wanted some proof.

Keep the good comedy dhapster.

How aboot this for the next shebang. Snoopy Pole Fencing! 30# to a 3" nerf basketball, max drag. Two logs 2'x1.5' [skinny] 35' apart. Each combatant wears identical bright & ugly tshirts with a large 'but on the front. Direct hit on the either but/t is an automatic win. Then, first to strike color 3 times wins. If someone casts so weakly that you can catch the line, you may try to pull your opponent off their log or Snoopy out of their hands [but if you break their line you lose] or throw their own lure back at them. If a person falls off a log, heh, loses pole or is struck by their own lure on color, they lose. Would be fun [esp to spectate - somebody bring a camcorder!] after a day's sea legs and cold pops!

Looks like you've been doing some reading up Chappy. Got any wolf links?

Maybe if we keep this flame thread going, all the others will be immune. In that light, have you seen the article about state legislatures' effort to criminalize dissent on issues about the environment?

Have you ever signed a petition in support of an environmental issue? Do you belong to or donate to the Sierra Club, Washington Trout, or Piscatorial Pursuits? Have you publicly protested some environmental issue? If legislation crafted and promoted by the ultra-conservative American Legislative Exchange Council (ALEC) becomes law, these fundamental rights of American citizenship could become illegal.

Will Peta kids start eating burgers for cover? Will the court buy our claim of "Everyone knows stories from fishermen are tall tales!"? If I fall out of the boat on a strike is it "ker-plunking"? So many questions...
Heh. </flame>

Bawahahahahahaha!

Chappy, you really need to keep your lips from the green tea jug!

Hey you didnt piss me off about your comments, it just reinforces to me and others how ludicrous your type of people really are..

Are you sure about that?


http://www.sportsmenslink.org/Sportman/

Racerdan... I believe the number is 20 people killed in the last 100 years in the USA by cougars. 18 in the US by bears. Thats killed only.

Most incidents are accident, mistaken identity, or just plain stupidity.

You all probably heard about that 2 year old killed by the coyotes in California? The parents were tossing the coyotes hot dogs! Idiots went in to get more, left the kid out. Gee, the people are giving out weiners, I guess the 2year old is part of the deal?? Idiots...

driftboater... Please come at me with something better then jokes about Enumclaw, my age, or Chappy. It just gets old and really doesn't work much. Once again... Just please... SOME intelligence?

Chappy... You're not helping the cause much man... Just quit posting unless youre actually gonna put in some real evidence.

Curtis

Well its my turn to keep this never ending thread going.

I have followed this discussion and the others in the hunting forum (all of them).
I am sorry voodod daddy, in my opinion you are way out of line on this, along with the other threads.
What driftboater and others have stated for the most part accurate(opinionated) and I am glad I started reading the threads. Its been a great learning experience on a variety of issues.
Your attacks against driftboater are quite amuzing and I really apploud him for apparently laughing them off. These attacks you spout just show me that you do not understand the issues very well and your apparent lack of experience.

I hope you do not take what I said as to much of an insult but learn from it. It's important for the youth of today to learn respect and carry on heritages. Hopefully you can do that.

Feather,

You say you want "facts". Well here you go!
Wolf Factoids

(1) The wolf (Canis lupus ) Order: Carnivore, Family: Canidae

(2) The wolf is the largest in the wild canine family

(3) The coyote evolved separately from the wolf over 500,000 years ago

(4) The wolf has 42 teeth

(5) The wolf has rounded ears

(6) The wolf has a broad heavy muzzle

(7) The wolf has extremely powerful jaws capable of generating 1,500 psi pressure

(8) The wolf has one of the widest ranges of size, shape and color of any mammal in North America

(9) The wolf lives in a pack, family oriented social structure

10) Mating season for the wolf occurs in February and March.

11) The gestation period for the wolf is 63 days

(12) Wolf pups are born in April and May

(13) The average litter size for the wolf is 4 to 7 pups

(14) Litter size for the wolf depends on nutrition factors as well as fitness of the female

(15) Mortality rates for wolf pups can be as high as 50%

(16) Wolves have a vast communication repertoire including scent marks, vocalizations, visual displays, facial and body postures and rituals

(17) Wolves communicate with each other more by harmony and integration rather than by aggression and submission

(18) Wolves are territorial and defend their territory through vocalizations and scent marking

(19) If necessary, wolves will attack other wolf intruders to protect their territory

(20) There are two species of the wolf in North America, the Gray Wolf (Canis lupus ) and the Red Wolf (Canis rufus )

(21) In North America there are 10 recognized sub-species of the wolf

(22) The main threat to wolf populations is loss of habitat

(23) Predation is not violence, it is the act of obtaining food for survival

(24) The wolf is an ultimate predator at the top of the food chain

(25) The wolf is designed for running, catching and killing large animals

(26) The wolf is opportunistic and will attempt to catch the easiest and most vulnerable animal

(27) The wolf can kill healthy animals but naturally seeks out the sick, the weak, crippled, old and young animals

(28) The wolf primarily travels at a 5 mile per hour trot

(29) In chases, the wolf can achieve estimated speeds of between 28 and 40 miles per hour for up to 20 minutes

(30) Radio tracking wolves has been used in wildlife research since 1963

(31) Wolves are vulnerable to skull injury from kicking prey

(32) The canine teeth "interlock" so the wolf can grip and hang on to struggling prey

(33) The back teeth, or carnassial molars, are designed to crush bones and shear meat

(34) The wolf uses facial display in ritual aggression, dominance, submission or fear

(35) The wolf has 2 types of hair, "Guards and "Undercoat"

(36) The hair of the wolf is shed in the spring and summer and sheds out in sheets unlike most dogs

(37) The color of a wolf's pelt can be anywhere from white to black

(38) The wolf uses its hair to communicate anger, dominance and aggression

(39) The wolf's sense of smell is more than 100 times greater than a human

(40) A wolf 'scent rolls' to promote interaction with other pack members

(41) Dominance in a wolf pack is not necessarily established by brawn or direct attack

(42) A wolf 'scent marks' its home range. This serves as messages, and provides warnings

(43) The hierarchy in a wolf pack neutralizes aggression, reduces conflict and promotes social order

(44) There are two hierarchies in a wolf pack, one for females and one for males

(45) Change of rank in a wolf pack is more frequent in lower rank positions

(46) Wolf pups, while low in hierarchy, have many privileges and social freedom

(47) 'Ethology' is the study of animal behavior as a scientific counterpart to human psychology

(48) The "Alpha" wolf is the highest ranking individual within the dominance hierarchy

(49) "You just can't let nature run wild" by Alaska Governor Walter J. Hickel

(50) The "beta" wolf is the second ranking individual within the dominance hierarchy

(51) The "omega" wolf is the lowest ranking individual within the dominance hierarchy

(52) In the winter, the wolf's tail helps keep the face warm

(53) Wolves breed only once a year; most dogs breed twice

(54) In addition to the wolf (Canis lupus ), the genus Canis also contains the domestic dog, the coyote, the golden jackal, the black backed jackal, the side-striped jackal and the dingo

(55) Three (3) geographic races of the red wolf have been recognized; the Florida Red Wolf, The Mississippi Red Wolf and the Texas Red Wolf

(56) Wolves are often confused with Indian dogs, huskies, malemutes and German Shepherd Dogs

(57) Arctic tundra, taiga, plains or steppes, savannahs, hardwood, softwood and mixed forest were all originally inhabited by the wolf

(58) Adult male wolves average ninety-five to one hundred pounds and females about fifteen pounds less

(59) Wolves howl to greet one another, to indicate their location, to define their territorial boundaries, and to call the pack together

(60) Wolves can trot at five to ten miles per hour almost indefinitely

(61) A wolf may spend as much as a third of its time on the move

(62) The wolf is generally a docile animal with a strong aversion to fighting

(63) Submissive behavior plays a big role in maintaining peace within the pack

(64) A wolf's front feet are larger than their back feet

(65) Packs hunt in territories of up to 600 square miles

(66) A pack's home range will sometimes overlap the territory of another pack

(67) In addition to howling, wolves bark, yap, whine, and growl

(68) Litters of up to 14 pups are born in April through June

(69) Pups emerge from the den at about one month of age

(70) All members of a wolf pack take part in caring for the young

(71) When pack members return from the hunt and they are nipped on the snout by the pups, the hunters regurgitate undigested meat for them

(72) Wolves are considered to be competitors with people for game animals such as moose and caribou

(73) Although wolves are feared throughout much of the world, documented attacks on people are extremely rare

(74) Attempts to keep wolves as pets are not usually successful

(75) Wolves use direct scenting, chance encounter, and tracking to locate prey

(76) In scenting an animal, wolves must usually be downwind of the prey

(77) Wolves are active at all times of the day in winter

(78) Where waterways are plentiful, wolves often travel on the windswept and hardpacked ice in winter

(79) Wolves actually have a low hunting success rate

(80) To catch enough food, wolves must hunt often and test many animals before finding one that they can catch and kill

(81) Most packs contain less than eight members

(82) Wolves bear an average of six young per litter(82) Wolves become sexually mature at approximately twenty-two months

(83) Strong bonds are needed to hold a pack together; if there were no bonds, each wolf would go its separate way

(84) Most packs include a pair of breeding adults, pups, and extra adults that may also breed

(85) Ambushing is used by both single wolves and by packs

(86) Wolves at one time had an extensive range, occurring throughout North America, Europe, Asia, and Japan

(87) The only substantial population of wolves left at present in the contiguous 48 states inhabits northern Minnesota

(88) The range of the red wolf once extended from eastern Texas to Georgia and Florida and northward through Oklahoma, Arkansas, and Illinois

(89) The basic unit of wolf society is the pack

(90) The wolf's front teeth are sharp and pointed and adapted to puncturing, slashing, and clinging

(91) The wolf's pointed premolars and molars are useful for tearing and shearing once the prey has been killed

(92) The wolf's massive rear molars aid in cracking and crushing bones

(93) The wolf does little chewing

(94) A wolf can consume almost twenty pounds of prey at a feeding

(95) Wolves can maintain a chase for at least twenty minutes

(96) The wolf feeds almost exclusively on flesh, bones, and other animal matter

(97) Lone wolves have no social territory and rarely scent-mark or howl

(98) The range size for a given pack of wolves depends on many environmental factors, particularly prey density

(99) It is common for wolves to be moving eight to ten hours in a day

(100) A pack may cover distances from 30-125 miles in a day

(101) Wolves possess upwards of two hundred million olfactory cells

(102) A wolf's tail hangs while the tail of the dog tends to be held high and is often curly

BBVD,,are you just chapped at me? if so, is it because EPD is paying a little more attention to you and your P/U?

I'll work on coming off as a little more "intelligent" for you, OK?

maybee I jus needs to wach sum Jeoparty dis week.

Curtis thanks for giving me a chuckle, keep it up and you'll have me belly rolling like chappy gets me.